Refereeing (Multiple Merged Threads)

[OriginalMrC]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is the crux of it for me. The whole tackle, wrestle and play the ball is so subjective and open to interpretation. The vast majority of issues and complaints stem from this. It is also of great importance to the game and a teams chances of winning. In some ways when all competition for the ball has been removed it doesn't really add anything to the game. Maybe the whole tackle and play the balls should be reassessed to see if there is a better way to start the tackle.

Even if we compare to something similar like American Football every play is black and white and there is no subjectivity. Even RU while a mess with tons of rules ignored doesn't seem as subjective these days when it comes to the tackle.

Rugby union and American football are probably the two worst examples you could have picked. Rugby Union is completely about the referee with huge amounts of decisions being completely subjective. It's often complete pot luck which way a decision will go. American football has got SEVEN officials and every camera angle imaginable and still get calls wrong or make poor decisions. 

Rugby league as whole has far less subjective decisions than the two sports you mentioned. It's part of the appeal of the sport. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, OriginalMrC said:

American football has got SEVEN officials and every camera angle imaginable and still get calls wrong or make poor decisions. 

The amount of (in my opinion) very poor calls on, in particular, pass interference can sometimes make the whole game feel like a lottery to me.

[Maximus Decimus]

31 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is the crux of it for me. The whole tackle, wrestle and play the ball is so subjective and open to interpretation. The vast majority of issues and complaints stem from this. It is also of great importance to the game and a teams chances of winning. In some ways when all competition for the ball has been removed it doesn't really add anything to the game. Maybe the whole tackle and play the balls should be reassessed to see if there is a better way to start the tackle.

Even if we compare to something similar like American Football every play is black and white and there is no subjectivity. Even RU while a mess with tons of rules ignored doesn't seem as subjective these days when it comes to the tackle.

I don't know how they could ever sort out the ruck area. Unless they said you have 4 seconds for a tackle, which is unfeasible, you will always get too much subjectivity. With the strip rule, the only way is to put as much onus on the ball carrier as possible but even that would make for a scruffier game.

NFL is clearer but even then it needs quite a large team for it to be properly officiated. I can only imagine what it would be like with one referee and 2 touch judges!

I don't think Union has it better than us; I think if we were to swap games we would have many of the same issues on the fan side. RL is a deeply tribal game with long historic ties to its communities, RU is basically a new game at club level. Then of course there is the class element.

The fact that penalty goals so often decide the outcome of games, would IMO make things worse if it was transferred to our sport. It is certainly one of the things that puts me off the most.

[Damien]

27 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Rugby union and American football are probably the two worst examples you could have picked. Rugby Union is completely about the referee with huge amounts of decisions being completely subjective. It's often complete pot luck which way a decision will go. American football has got SEVEN officials and every camera angle imaginable and still get calls wrong or make poor decisions. 

Rugby league as whole has far less subjective decisions than the two sports you mentioned. It's part of the appeal of the sport. 

I disagree. I see little that is subjective about an American Football restart and I rarely, if ever, hear commentators refer to issues. It's as clear cut as you get.

RU these days largely just let it flow at the breakdown when a tackle is complete. The ball is recycled back and they go again.

[Maximus Decimus]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

I disagree. I see little that is subjective about an American Football restart and I rarely, if ever, here commentators refer to issues. It's as clear cut as you get.

RU these days largely just let it flow at the breakdown when a tackle is complete. The ball is recycled back and they go again.

Like I stated earlier, I follow NFL on YouTube etc and there is a lot of unhappiness around officiating. I think they had a record for flags during a recent Thanksgiving game.

Unbelievably, their officials aren't full time.

[Maximus Decimus]

35 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The amount of (in my opinion) very poor calls on, in particular, pass interference can sometimes make the whole game feel like a lottery to me.

They have many of the same problems as we do IMO but have the scale to largely cope with it.

During the final drive of the Superbowl, the Rams were 2nd and goal-line and threw an incomplete pass. A yellow flag came on for interference, and the commentators stated that it was a contentious call that they disagreed with. The result was a new 1st and GL instead of 3rd and GL, which is a huge difference. The Rams scored the winning TD in the following plays.

I bet there are plenty of Bengals fans still stewing about it.

Edit: just type in 'Bengals robbed' and there are plenty of articles/videos about it.

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

42 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is the crux of it for me. The whole tackle, wrestle and play the ball is so subjective and open to interpretation. The vast majority of issues and complaints stem from this. It is also of great importance to the game and a teams chances of winning. In some ways when all competition for the ball has been removed it doesn't really add anything to the game. Maybe the whole tackle and play the balls should be reassessed to see if there is a better way to start the tackle.

Even if we compare to something similar like American Football every play is black and white and there is no subjectivity. Even RU while a mess with tons of rules ignored doesn't seem as subjective these days when it comes to the tackle.

As a fan that often criticises referees for inconsistency the ruck is not high on my agenda for that very reason.

The referee does have to police something live that has plenty going on. Players are trying to reef the ball, feign trapped arms or hold arms in, milk injuries, holding down, incorrect PTB etc It is frustrating when you see mistakes but unless you see the weight of mistakes heavily in one direction I certainly accept that they are part of the game and I do not see many obvious ways to clean it up.

What I believe is entirely wrong is the inconsistency of the big calls, often game changing, that the officials seem to deliver on a regular basis but seem to suffer no recourse.

I think those that continually preach that referees are beyond reproach are a million miles away from understanding the  real problem. I keep hearing and today even watched a FB video justifying horrendous inconsistencies as essentially human nature.

You simply cannot officiate anything professionally if those in charge consistently deliver dramatically inconsistent interpretations of the rules. The officials should be so well drilled that anything remotely different from previous decisions given 10 minutes ago or 10 weeks ago should stand out like a sore thumb and yet we can hardly get through a game.

I am not talking about a hard to see knock on or a 50/50 flat pass, but rather penalties and cards that are awarded, especially with time and consideration from a video referee.

I also think that the officials should engage with the media to provide answers to questions raised. Not necessarily after each game but maybe weekly once the games have been played and questions can be presented in one media session.

The clubs are stakeholders in the game and they are entitled to question the officials performance, especially inconsistencies. Remember we are often talking game changing erroneous decisions.

If the officials were subjected to the media once a week maybe some of the inconsistencies will be explained away reducing some of the frustrations out there - so it might be a two way street.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

As a fan that often criticises referees for inconsistency the ruck is not high on my agenda for that very reason.

The referee does have to police something live that has plenty going on. Players are trying to reef the ball, feign trapped arms or hold arms in, milk injuries, holding down, incorrect PTB etc It is frustrating when you see mistakes but unless you see the weight of mistakes heavily in one direction I certainly accept that they are part of the game and I do not see many obvious ways to clean it up.

What I believe is entirely wrong is the inconsistency of the big calls, often game changing, that the officials seem to deliver on a regular basis but seem to suffer no recourse.

I think those that continually preach that referees are beyond reproach are a million miles away from understanding the  real problem. I keep hearing and today even watched a FB video justifying horrendous inconsistencies as essentially human nature.

You simply cannot officiate anything professionally if those in charge consistently deliver dramatically inconsistent interpretations of the rules. The officials should be so well drilled that anything remotely different from previous decisions given 10 minutes ago or 10 weeks ago should stand out like a sore thumb and yet we can hardly get through a game.

I am not talking about a hard to see knock on or a 50/50 flat pass, but rather penalties and cards that are awarded, especially with time and consideration from a video referee.

I also think that the officials should engage with the media to provide answers to questions raised. Not necessarily after each game but maybe weekly once the games have been played and questions can be presented in one media session.

The clubs are stakeholders in the game and they are entitled to question the officials performance, especially inconsistencies. Remember we are often talking game changing erroneous decisions.

If the officials were subjected to the media once a week maybe some of the inconsistencies will be explained away reducing some of the frustrations out there - so it might be a two way street.

That's one helluva long phone call you're going to be making to the Rhinos switchboard tomorrow.

[Maximus Decimus]

5 minutes ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

As a fan that often criticises referees for inconsistency the ruck is not high on my agenda for that very reason.

The referee does have to police something live that has plenty going on. Players are trying to reef the ball, feign trapped arms or hold arms in, milk injuries, holding down, incorrect PTB etc It is frustrating when you see mistakes but unless you see the weight of mistakes heavily in one direction I certainly accept that they are part of the game and I do not see many obvious ways to clean it up.

What I believe is entirely wrong is the inconsistency of the big calls, often game changing, that the officials seem to deliver on a regular basis but seem to suffer no recourse.

I think those that continually preach that referees are beyond reproach are a million miles away from understanding the  real problem. I keep hearing and today even watched a FB video justifying horrendous inconsistencies as essentially human nature.

You simply cannot officiate anything professionally if those in charge consistently deliver dramatically inconsistent interpretations of the rules. The officials should be so well drilled that anything remotely different from previous decisions given 10 minutes ago or 10 weeks ago should stand out like a sore thumb and yet we can hardly get through a game.

I am not talking about a hard to see knock on or a 50/50 flat pass, but rather penalties and cards that are awarded, especially with time and consideration from a video referee.

I also think that the officials should engage with the media to provide answers to questions raised. Not necessarily after each game but maybe weekly once the games have been played and questions can be presented in one media session.

The clubs are stakeholders in the game and they are entitled to question the officials performance, especially inconsistencies. Remember we are often talking game changing erroneous decisions.

If the officials were subjected to the media once a week maybe some of the inconsistencies will be explained away reducing some of the frustrations out there - so it might be a two way street.

I couldn't disagree more. The big decisions by their nature are relatively rare. We're currently talking about the sending offs in the past couple of weeks, but each club will have probably 3 players sent off a year max.

When it comes to the culture on the terraces and in the stands, it is the constant drip of contentious decisions that leads to a sometimes very negative atmosphere and the impression that the referee is corrupt.

It's much more common to hear outrage at a borderline holding down offence, especially when fan perception is that the other team have been doing it much worse. I don't hear much sympathy for the idea that it's a difficult aspect to referee.

[redjonn]

As commentated but some others I think transparency would help.  A weekly or monthly broadcast press conference type in which decisions are clearly explained. As ref's generally get the decisions correct plus it is clear that some are difficult to adjudge it shouldn't be a worry. Plus it would add a performance improvement focus.  I don't think it would happen but it would certainly be a positive opportunity for ref's.

One beef for me is the post tackle tangle that often goes in. It seems to me that more and more the attacking team are clinging on or barging opponents to the floor to gain an advantage from the PTB as the defending team will be scrambling with a at least one player trying to get into position following being held in or in a heap on the floor the floor.

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I disagree. I see little that is subjective about an American Football restart and I rarely, if ever, hear commentators refer to issues. It's as clear cut as you get.

RU these days largely just let it flow at the breakdown when a tackle is complete. The ball is recycled back and they go again.

Penalties were a big issue last season and this in the NRL, mostly around pass interference which is open to interpretation. 

[LeeF]

You can explain decisions to the public all day long just like the Match Officials Department did during Cummings’ time in charge but the majority of fans/ followers, as evidenced in this thread, don’t listen and still claim very loudly that their club is picked on each and every time

[gingerjon]

16 hours ago, LeeF said:

You can explain decisions to the public all day long just like the Match Officials Department did during Cummings’ time in charge but the majority of fans/ followers, as evidenced in this thread, don’t listen and still claim very loudly that their club is picked on each and every time

I should say that I don't actually expect them to be right every single time. I expect them to be giving decisions that are explicable.

In a very obvious example: calling a knock on because in real time and from the officials' viewpoint it looked that way is fine, but annoying, even if a later slowed down and entirely different camera angle shows that it wasn't a knock on.

[Damien]

18 hours ago, dkw said:

Penalties were a big issue last season and this in the NRL, mostly around pass interference which is open to interpretation. 

Again I'm not taking about general play, just like I wasnt talking about things like obstruction in RL. The discussion was about the ruck and play the ball and the NFL equivalent. 

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

Officials cannot win. Some people view the laws of game strictly, others see referees as managing occasions and using laws as a framework. 

Both have pros and cons but as the tension above will never be resolved, people just have to accept decisions and move on 

[LeeF]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

I should say that I don't actually expect them to be right every single time. I expect them to be giving decisions that are explicable.

In a very obvious example: calling a knock on because in real time and from the officials' viewpoint it looked that way is fine, but annoying, even if a later slowed down and entirely different camera angle shows that it wasn't a knock on.

I fully accept and agree with your comments.
 

In your example some fans & some posters still shout very loudly about bias in the decision and that is for an incident that isn’t really full of nuances.

Match Officials make hundreds of decisions every single game and get the odd one wrong. Standards are at an all time high. Players make less decisions but more numerically and significantly more proportionately mistakes but Peter Smith and the likes don’t run articles on the number of knock ons or other mistakes certain players make against named opposition.

Fans don’t accuse a player of being biased or corrupt for failing to catch a simple pass and yet we had a poster on another thread stating he could do a better job than any MO. They haven’t even sat the entrance exam. I offered to watch their next/ first game to give feedback. I can guarantee that they will make more mistakes and errors than Chris Kendall and Liam Moore and James Child have made in the season so far combined. Those are the types of people who don’t listen/ watch/ understand 

[Wakefield Ram]

Changing culture is very hard, but it starts at the top with the pro game. I played local amateur RL in 80s and 90s and there was no arguing with the ref at all. 

As a game we used to pride ourselves on respect for the referee. Now at pro level it's not much different to football. Players running up to refs arguing. How often do players get taken back 10m or sent off for dissent? Players would change behaviour very quickly if they did.

As for coaches, maybe higher fines. Or maybe make them referee an amateur or junior game as a punishment. Video it and play it back to them.

And hope the media find something constructive to discuss rather than moaning about a decision because they want to create "controversy". 

In reality, it is impossible to stamp out the disrespect but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take whatever steps you can to mitigate it.

 

[David Dockhouse Host]

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Please leave your thoughts in officials in Rugby League in our YouTube comments section and we will share them with former Super League referee

 

 

 

[redjonn]

Personally I think its fine for fans to be discussing ref decisions after a game. Its part and parcel of being a fan. Its not acceptable to be hurling comments doing a game at the ref.

Players should never react to a decision and when they do march down 10 yards. Yep the captain can ask to clarify a decision occasionally.

What annoys me a lot is the dummy half/hooker throwing his hands up at almost every tacking/PTB.   I actual think some players don't realise they are always flapping their arms in the air as they do it so much.

[daz39]

23 hours ago, LeeF said:

You can explain decisions to the public all day long just like the Match Officials Department did during Cummings’ time in charge but the majority of fans/ followers, as evidenced in this thread, don’t listen and still claim very loudly that their club is picked on each and every time

Exactly, if you are a fan who will ALWAYS blame a ref for your team losing, or your rivals winning then nothing will ever change your mind, this is typical fingers in ears behaviour especially from those online who don't attend games - and yes i am being very prejudiced here!.

[David Dockhouse Host]

If you get chance please leave a thumbs up or a thumbs down on this micro video.

And please paste some of these comments on YouTube please. 

 

 

 

 

[David Dockhouse Host]

4 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I've done my bit here

Now on YouTube

Please leave your thoughts in officials in Rugby League in our YouTube comments section and we will share them with former Super League referee

 

 

 

Even a thumbs down if you do t agree or think it's rubbish all feedback welcome.....ish

[Maximus Decimus]

23 hours ago, LeeF said:

I fully accept and agree with your comments.
 

In your example some fans & some posters still shout very loudly about bias in the decision and that is for an incident that isn’t really full of nuances.

Match Officials make hundreds of decisions every single game and get the odd one wrong. Standards are at an all time high. Players make less decisions but more numerically and significantly more proportionately mistakes but Peter Smith and the likes don’t run articles on the number of knock ons or other mistakes certain players make against named opposition.

Fans don’t accuse a player of being biased or corrupt for failing to catch a simple pass and yet we had a poster on another thread stating he could do a better job than any MO. They haven’t even sat the entrance exam. I offered to watch their next/ first game to give feedback. I can guarantee that they will make more mistakes and errors than Chris Kendall and Liam Moore and James Child have made in the season so far combined. Those are the types of people who don’t listen/ watch/ understand 

Whilst I agree with this, I will allude to what I said earlier about what it means to be a fan.

Being a fan of a club, isn't a neutral experience where things are judged rationally. Being a fan of a club means being emotionally involved in both your team and the outcome. This inevitably means that there will be considerable bias in how the game is viewed.

When a referee gives 4/5 decisions against your team on the spin, which in turn means that your team might be losing the game, then you're not going to be thinking rationally about it. Statistically even the fairest referee in the world with two equally fair sides would at times gives 5 penalties in a row to one side. However, it is wishful-thinking to think we could change the culture to the point where this wouldn't be viewed with significant frustration by the fans of one side.

Nor should we want it to be. In my opinion, booing the referee is a side-effect of the passion and emotion that is the lifeblood of the game. The only real solution is to view the game dispassionately. I will refer again to the time when Lampard's goal wasn't given. I was furious, after all it was potentially going to lead to my country not winning the World Cup. The only way I'm going to sit there and say 'well everybody makes mistakes' is to not care about the result nearly as much, which in turn is to take much less enjoyment out of the experience of being a fan.

[LeeF]

11 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Whilst I agree with this, I will allude to what I said earlier about what it means to be a fan.

Being a fan of a club, isn't a neutral experience where things are judged rationally. Being a fan of a club means being emotionally involved in both your team and the outcome. This inevitably means that there will be considerable bias in how the game is viewed.

When a referee gives 4/5 decisions against your team on the spin, which in turn means that your team might be losing the game, then you're not going to be thinking rationally about it. Statistically even the fairest referee in the world with two equally fair sides would at times gives 5 penalties in a row to one side. However, it is wishful-thinking to think we could change the culture to the point where this wouldn't be viewed with significant frustration by the fans of one side.

Nor should we want it to be. In my opinion, booing the referee is a side-effect of the passion and emotion that is the lifeblood of the game. The only real solution is to view the game dispassionately. I will refer again to the time when Lampard's goal wasn't given. I was furious, after all it was potentially going to lead to my country not winning the World Cup. The only way I'm going to sit there and say 'well everybody makes mistakes' is to not care about the result nearly as much, which in turn is to take much less enjoyment out of the experience of being a fan.

I understand what you are saying but that doesn’t justify the non fans and the fans of a team still vociferously complaining and insulting Match Officials days after the match which is what has occurred on here and across various social media. Some posters on here have said either directly or implied, that the errors, which most aren’t errors, were deliberate

I struggle to understand how even the most one eyed “fan” can claim that Bentley, Gale or Foggin-Johnston was hard done by and are the victims of perceived bias. That’s not being a fan.

Fans who are journalists running win/loss ratios without any context - how is that being passionate? I’m still waiting for the knock on and other errors count for every Leeds player broken down for the opponents played to see if anyone is deliberately playing badly at times

[JohnM]

Very much agree. Shouting "forward" or "gerrumonside, ref" etc. in the heat of the game is a perfectly understandable and widely- shared activity, part of the match-day experience, part of being a fan.

Spending the following week frame-grabbing, headlining, relentless forum-posting and worse etc smacks more of paranoia than fandom.