Sun 6th Mar: SL: Castleford Tigers v Hull FC KO 15:30

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, MZH said:

even at full strength we are woefully inconsistent.

Hull are consistent year on year of being inconsistent it doesn't seem to matter what the playing roster is they always promise so much but then only deliver in dribs and drabs, it must be so frustrating being a Hull FC fan.

[Old Frightful]

8 hours ago, Jughead said:

He’s been coached by Radford, Hodgson, Wayne Bennett, Paul Anderson and Tim Sheens. At 27 years old, if he’s not consistent, which he clearly isn’t (and nowhere near an “amazing talent”, he has no doing being close to a tier one national side unless facing them as an opponent (that’s if he has an Irish/Scottish/Welsh grandmother). 

Young players like Dodd, Pryce, Oledzki, Newman should be being worked on, not 27 year-olds who have one good game in five. 

Jake Connor came on as substitute against New Zealand in Denver and changed the game. He then played in all three tests v New Zealand and was influential in England winning the first two tests with several assists helping Makinson score tries. He's also scored 4 tries in his 5 England appearances.

So, just the one good game in five?

[Saint Toppy]

14 hours ago, Scubby said:

I would rather Wane was working with Connor inside the squad (trying to consistently bring out that amazing talent) than have him sulking outside the squad. Great man managers get the best out of people like Connor. His ability to switch on and off is fixable. He talent is natural.

Such a gifted and frustrating player!

Is it fixable ??

The guys 27 and no coach has managed it at club level (as well as being unable to reign in his brain farts). In a WC you need players who can play consistently well every game and ones who can step up when the team is struggling.

Haven't seen the game against Cas but it sounds like Connor did his usual "nowhere to be seen for most of the game"  

[redjonn]

2 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Is it fixable ??

The guys 27 and no coach has managed it at club level (as well as being unable to reign in his brain farts). In a WC you need players who can play consistently well every game and ones who can step up when the team is struggling.

Haven't seen the game against Cas but it sounds like Connor did his usual "nowhere to be seen for most of the game"  

Hard to say but I think if Connor was in a club like Saints were their would have been tougher competition for places throughout his development years and career he would be much more consistent and a even better player.   That is maybe his attitude and personality would be moulded differently. 

Maybe not focus so much on his hot air and baiting but more being consistently effective and not show boating when things are going well.

 

[Old Frightful]

12 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Haven't seen the game against Cas but it sounds like Connor did his usual "nowhere to be seen for most of the game"  

Where did you glean this from?

I was at the game and he was involved in almost everything for his team but the others let him down badly with handling errors and bad decisions.

He never stopped trying but it just wasn't Hull FC's day.

[Davo5]

22 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Is it fixable ??

The guys 27 and no coach has managed it at club level (as well as being unable to reign in his brain farts). In a WC you need players who can play consistently well every game and ones who can step up when the team is struggling.

Haven't seen the game against Cas but it sounds like Connor did his usual "nowhere to be seen for most of the game"  

If you haven’t seen the game,how do you know he was nowhere to be seen for most of the game or are you doing your usual hatchet job on a player you don’t like (Dom Young) based on absolutely no evidence.

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, Old Frightful said:

Where did you glean this from?

I was at the game and he was involved in almost everything for his team but the others let him down badly with handling errors and bad decisions.

He never stopped trying but it just wasn't Hull FC's day.

Not from the game highlights he wasn't. OK so he put in the kick for Hull's 4th try and gave the final pass for their 5th but had no involvement in any of the others.

Then there's his defence:-

Missed the tackle for Cas 1st try, Couldn't hold up the player for their 2nd, Absolutely nowhere to be seen for their 3rd so way out of position, Same for their 4th was out of position and got nowhere near attempting a tackle, God knows where he was for their 5th he wasn't even in the shot so way out of position again, and he got completely turned inside out and beaten for their 6th try.

So aside really from Cas's 2nd try which would have taken a brilliant tackle to hold up he was at fault for all the others.

[Old Frightful]

4 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not from the game highlights he wasn't. OK so he put in the kick for Hull's 4th try and gave the final pass for their 5th but had no involvement in any of the others.

Then there's his defence:-

Missed the tackle for Cas 1st try, Couldn't hold up the player for their 2nd, Absolutely nowhere to be seen for their 3rd so way out of position, Same for their 4th was out of position and got nowhere near attempting a tackle, God knows where he was for their 5th he wasn't even in the shot so way out of position again, and he got completely turned inside out and beaten for their 6th try.

So aside really from Cas's 2nd try which would have taken a brilliant tackle to hold up he was at fault for all the others.

So he's on the pitch for 80 minutes yet you assess his game from 2 or 3 minutes of highlights?

Bravo.

[Saint Toppy]

23 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

So he's on the pitch for 80 minutes yet you assess his game from 2 or 3 minutes of highlights?

Bravo.

Just the 11 key moments of the game that led to points - 2 he had a positive impact on, 3 he had no involvement in and 5 he was directly at fault for conceding points, and another he could possibly have done better to prevent a try.

When your FB is at fault for 5 of the 6 try's conceded thats not a positive impact.

[Old Frightful]

26 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Just the 11 key moments of the game that led to points - 2 he had a positive impact on, 3 he had no involvement in and 5 he was directly at fault for conceding points, and another he could possibly have done better to prevent a try.

When your FB is at fault for 5 of the 6 try's conceded thats not a positive impact.

Everyone on this forum knows that if he was a Saints player you’d worship the ground he walked on.

Oh, and the plural of try is “tries”, happy to help.

[Davo5]

1 minute ago, Old Frightful said:

Everyone on this forum knows that if he was a Saints player you’d worship the ground he walked on.

Oh, and the plural of try is “tries”, happy to help.

This is the guy who wrote Dom Young’s rugby career off after 1 appearance for Huddersfield when he was 17,I wouldn’t take him too seriously.

[MZH]

4 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Just the 11 key moments of the game that led to points - 2 he had a positive impact on, 3 he had no involvement in and 5 he was directly at fault for conceding points, and another he could possibly have done better to prevent a try.

When your FB is at fault for 5 of the 6 try's conceded thats not a positive impact.

If everyone else does their job properly your full back should never have to make a single tackle. Maybe he could have done better on some of them, but to say he's "directly responsible" is just silly. 

He also prevented a few tries which you obviously don't see in the highlights. It's like blaming a goalkeeper for failing to keep a clean sheet when his defense has allowed 30 shots on goal. 

[Saint Toppy]

10 hours ago, MZH said:

If everyone else does their job properly your full back should never have to make a single tackle. Maybe he could have done better on some of them, but to say he's "directly responsible" is just silly. 

He also prevented a few tries which you obviously don't see in the highlights. It's like blaming a goalkeeper for failing to keep a clean sheet when his defense has allowed 30 shots on goal. 

He is responsible, as the FB he's the last line of defence. 3 of the 6 he was nowhere to be seen when the try scorers went over. You can try to defend him all you like but to be so far out of position for 3 of the 6 is laughable. To use you goalkeeper analogy its like having your keeper walking round near the corner flag when the ball goes in the net.

[Lowdesert]

5 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

He is responsible, as the FB he's the last line of defence. 3 of the 6 he was nowhere to be seen when the try scorers went over. You can try to defend him all you like but to be so far out of position for 3 of the 6 is laughable. To use you goalkeeper analogy its like having your keeper walking round near the corner flag when the ball goes in the net.

This means that every try scored is the fault of the FB and mitigates the fact that teams can ship the ball quicker than a player can run.  Which is not true.

 

 

[MZH]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

He is responsible, as the FB he's the last line of defence. 3 of the 6 he was nowhere to be seen when the try scorers went over. You can try to defend him all you like but to be so far out of position for 3 of the 6 is laughable. To use you goalkeeper analogy its like having your keeper walking round near the corner flag when the ball goes in the net.

The full back is indeed the last line of defence, which means that is he is called into action that means someone else has already failed their assignment. If a fullback prevents a try that means he has bailed his team out, if he doesn't then he is only partly to blame. That's my gripe with your post. I'm not saying Connor is a great defensive full back. I just think it's ridiculous to claim a full back is directly responsible when several other players have failed too.

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

This means that every try scored is the fault of the FB and mitigates the fact that teams can ship the ball quicker than a player can run.  Which is not true.

 

 

Where did I say every try ?

Pretty much every FB tracks play across the line and their usual defensive position is 1 player in from the ball carrier. As the ball moves across so do they. They usually remain 1 player in to cover for an inside pass or some other sort of change of direction in play giving them time to recover and re-set themselves. All 3 of those tries conceded by Hull i'm afraid Connor is way out of position with absolutely no chance to get across and even attempt a tackle if the line is broken.

You can try and dress it up as much as you like but the fact remains it was a very poor defensive display from Connor and a better FB would probably have prevented some of those scores against them just by being in a good position.

[Lowdesert]

4 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Where did I say every try ?

Pretty much every FB tracks play across the line and their usual defensive position is 1 player in from the ball carrier. As the ball moves across so do they. They usually remain 1 player in to cover for an inside pass or some other sort of change of direction in play giving them time to recover and re-set themselves. All 3 of those tries conceded by Hull i'm afraid Connor is way out of position with absolutely no chance to get across and even attempt a tackle if the line is broken.

You can try and dress it up as much as you like but the fact remains it was a very poor defensive display from Connor and a better FB would probably have prevented some of those scores against them just by being in a good position.

We don’t have to dress anything up.  Some of those efforts, were very close and even over the line so, barring one effort, would have been very difficult to prevent.  I would have expected him to make a better effort on one of them but would not blame him for all.

Rugby League isn’t a game of perfect and if we are expecting that, every player on the pitch will fail many times a match.

Connor isn’t the best defensive FB, neither is Ratchford, Welsby or Tomkins but he offers a better attacking game than the first 2 and is equal to ST in my opinion.  

[Saint Toppy]

10 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

We don’t have to dress anything up.  Some of those efforts, were very close and even over the line so, barring one effort, would have been very difficult to prevent.  I would have expected him to make a better effort on one of them but would not blame him for all.

Rugby League isn’t a game of perfect and if we are expecting that, every player on the pitch will fail many times a match.

Connor isn’t the best defensive FB, neither is Ratchford, Welsby or Tomkins but he offers a better attacking game than the first 2 and is equal to ST in my opinion.  

Can't disagree that no player is perfect, even the very best FB's like Tedesco & Trebojevich make errors. What marks out a good one from an average one is their consistency week in week out. Yes they'll make errors but 9 times out of 10 they'll be in the right position to make the defensive play or to link up in attack.

IMO Connor falls a long way short in both facets. Defensively I think he's very poor compared to other FB's and in attack, while there's no denying he has talent and creativity he blows hot & cold not just from week to week but also during individual games. Its most noticeable when the team is struggling and they need their "star" players to step up. That's where top quality players really show their class, to lead from the front and turn a game in their teams favour. I'm yet to see Connor ever step up to this level.

If you look back across SL over the years the game is littered with that kind of player. At Saints we've had the likes of Sculthorpe, Cunningham, Roby and currently the likes of Walmsley. Ratchford has consistently done this for Wire as has Clarke, Leeds have had players like Burrow & Peacock, Tomkins does it for Catalans (and previously for Wigan). As well a moments of individual brilliance they're consistently good week after week.

Connor is 27 now and I can't see him ever addressing the shortcoming in his game, and that's probably why he's consistently overlooked for international honours.

Incidentally you mentioned Welsby as a comparison. As a Saints fan i'm not yet 100% convinced that FB will be his final position. Yes he's playing pretty well there now but IMO I think his skill set is more suited to a 6 than a 1, but I like most Saints fans are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because this is the first year he's been given an opportunity to play week in week out in just 1 position.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

The difference between a star player stepping up in an average team and a star player in a good team stepping up is huge.

Connor with better players around him would be a mega star. At Hull over the last few years, he's had only a fraction of a decent side around him. The youngsters coming through at Hull can't keep up. The forwards especially haven't been laying a platform. Very rarely is this an issue at sides like Saints. It's so easy to blame one player, as you are doing, when the rest of the team put so much pressure on him.

Connor is a victim of his own success. People expect miracles off every touch. The other players need to do their part too. It's a team effort. When the cogs in the team are all turning, he's a magician. It explains why he has performed so well in England games.

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

The difference between a star player stepping up in an average team and a star player in a good team stepping up is huge.

Connor with better players around him would be a mega star. At Hull over the last few years, he's had only a fraction of a decent side around him. The youngsters coming through at Hull can't keep up. The forwards especially haven't been laying a platform. Very rarely is this an issue at sides like Saints. It's so easy to blame one player, as you are doing, when the rest of the team put so much pressure on him.

Connor is a victim of his own success. People expect miracles off every touch. The other players need to do their part too. It's a team effort. When the cogs in the team are all turning, he's a magician. It explains why he has performed so well in England games.

Real class players shine in any team !! Tedesco was a star in a very ordinary Tigers team, Trebojevich was a stand out even When Manly were struggling

If Connor is that much of a "mega star" why does he rarely even get a sniff at a test squad place. I also keep reading that he was amazing when he did play for England against the Kiwi's, funny how he never got picked again after that series.

I'm sorry I just don't see what it is you Hull fans see in Connor, and that's a view shared by successive England coaches as well.

[Scubby]

4 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Real class players shine in any team !! Tedesco was a star in a very ordinary Tigers team, Trebojevich was a stand out even When Manly were struggling

Tedesco here playing for Italy against huge NRL stars like Liam Finn, George King, Liam Kay and LMS

Highlights don't tell the whole story wouldn't you agree?  

 

 

[Lowdesert]

7 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Real class players shine in any team !! Tedesco was a star in a very ordinary Tigers team, Trebojevich was a stand out even When Manly were struggling

If Connor is that much of a "mega star" why does he rarely even get a sniff at a test squad place. I also keep reading that he was amazing when he did play for England against the Kiwi's, funny how he never got picked again after that series.

I'm sorry I just don't see what it is you Hull fans see in Connor, and that's a view shared by successive England coaches as well.

He played for GB in 2019.  Bennett selected him for both.  Do you actually think before you type?

Imo Jake has all to do.  He needs to take the energy out of niggling and transfer it playing.  With the ball in his hands, he is a threat to any team, sure, he’s work to do on defence and his overall game but not as much as some of those selected for Wanes training squad.

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

He played for GB in 2019.  Bennett selected him for both.  

One of the worst GB touring performances, played 3 lost 3. Oh and that was the same Bennett that picked Austin as his starting winger

[dkw]

36 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

One of the worst GB touring performances, played 3 lost 3. Oh and that was the same Bennett that picked Austin as his starting winger

But he got picked, right? So you were wrong, right? Again, right?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

53 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

One of the worst GB touring performances, played 3 lost 3. Oh and that was the same Bennett that picked Austin as his starting winger

 

Ah, so it was HIS fault as well for this one?