Warrington solution

[Dave T]

10 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

 

Commitment and aggression are necessary but insufficient parts of defence, and being a good tackler doesn't necessarily make you a good defender. Big plays often aren't what defence is about. Your numbering up seems pretty poor and part of that is coaching and part of that is your fullback. Defenders turn their shoulders in too frequently as well, which is ultimately coaching/structure.

Couple of examples from the Leeds game:

00:40 - only needed 3 on the shortside but have 4. Longside under too much pressure as a result, Currie turns in unnecessarily on Leeming and Smith makes a break as a result.

2:04 - only needed 4 on the shortside but have 5. Currie and Ratchford under pressure as a result, Ratchford doesn't land but the issue came from the right edge.

Even more generally there's lots of turned hips/shoulders which put every defender around them under pressure.

 

 

Indeed, or positioning and numbering up has been all over the place all year, and that's been a worry as surely this is a coaching piece. 

My point about the aggression was more a general one, when the opposition get the ball they are generally going to make their yardage, with little interference from us. They are marching up field and ending in good position, we have little dominance at the ruck, probably only Daryl Clarke will ever stop any kind of flow. 

It's the same in attack. We can't step up the pace at all in the forwards, sure we can trundle along, but we make it relatively easy for the opposition defence to handle. 

Every team has one or two players who are capable of a power play here and there, ours is probably Matty Ashton while the forwards are benign. 

[David Dockhouse Host]

10 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

 

Commitment and aggression are necessary but insufficient parts of defence, and being a good tackler doesn't necessarily make you a good defender. Big plays often aren't what defence is about. Your numbering up seems pretty poor and part of that is coaching and part of that is your fullback. Defenders turn their shoulders in too frequently as well, which is ultimately coaching/structure.

Couple of examples from the Leeds game:

00:40 - only needed 3 on the shortside but have 4. Longside under too much pressure as a result, Currie turns in unnecessarily on Leeming and Smith makes a break as a result.

2:04 - only needed 4 on the shortside but have 5. Currie and Ratchford under pressure as a result, Ratchford doesn't land but the issue came from the right edge.

Even more generally there's lots of turned hips/shoulders which put every defender around them under pressure.

 

 

Spot in, it's what I meant by saying backing off too early, the defensive structures are all over the place.

One Leeds try the numbers were terrible, obvious gaps in defence which is very rarely seen these days.

[Bring back the Boyd]

I’m obviously disappointed in how this season is playing out, but not in the least surprised. Daz Clark and Cooper aside, none of our pack would feature in any of the teams challenging for honours. I still have faith in Powell’s ability to change our fortunes around, but not until next season when we see a team he has recruited. The best half backs in the world would struggle playing behind a poor set of forwards—- as stated previously, both passive in attack and defence—- even Clark, who I still consider to be one of the best hookers in both hemispheres, looks mediocre at present because he has nothing to work from. I understand the doom and gloom and finger pointing, but I think the appointment of Powell was a massive positive in attempting to finally put things right at Warrington— let’s get behind him and the team and for those of us old enough to remember the last few seasons at Wilderspool, we’re still in a good place, with an excellent ground and a fantastic backer. Cheer up, it can’t all be gravy

[Desert Skipper]

2 hours ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I think the appointment of Powell was a massive positive in attempting to finally put things right at Warrington

This. Powell has a record of improving every club he’s coached at. He’s turning things upside down in the camp, and maybe that’s unsettling the status quo. It’s something that clearly needs to be done though.

Powell is big into leaders and leadership, rather than individual quality. I’m hoping this is the key to building a new era, rather than just another NRL coach maintaining the comfort of being a ‘nearly men’ club filled with expensive acquisitions. Or to put it another way: ‘Leaders create change, managers just maintain it’.

Powell is getting the benefit of the doubt from me. I’m sure he’ll make a few mistakes along the way, but he is the best option available right now and one with a proven track record.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I’m obviously disappointed in how this season is playing out, but not in the least surprised. Daz Clark and Cooper aside, none of our pack would feature in any of the teams challenging for honours. I still have faith in Powell’s ability to change our fortunes around, but not until next season when we see a team he has recruited. The best half backs in the world would struggle playing behind a poor set of forwards—- as stated previously, both passive in attack and defence—- even Clark, who I still consider to be one of the best hookers in both hemispheres, looks mediocre at present because he has nothing to work from. I understand the doom and gloom and finger pointing, but I think the appointment of Powell was a massive positive in attempting to finally put things right at Warrington— let’s get behind him and the team and for those of us old enough to remember the last few seasons at Wilderspool, we’re still in a good place, with an excellent ground and a fantastic backer. Cheer up, it can’t all be gravy

 

20 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

This. Powell has a record of improving every club he’s coached at. He’s turning things upside down in the camp, and maybe that’s unsettling the status quo. It’s something that clearly needs to be done though.

Powell is big into leaders and leadership, rather than individual quality. I’m hoping this is the key to building a new era, rather than just another NRL coach maintaining the comfort of being a ‘nearly men’ club filled with expensive acquisitions. Or to put it another way: ‘Leaders create change, managers just maintain it’.

Powell is getting the benefit of the doubt from me. I’m sure he’ll make a few mistakes along the way, but he is the best option available right now and one with a proven track record.

I'm supportive of Powell, but as per my previous post, I'm still not seeing the need for things to 'finally be got right' at Warrington. I think there is a weird crisis built up at Wire as though their are real fundamental issues - when the evidence on the field does not support that.

Over the last 10 years, when it is fair to say that trophy haul has not been where you would want it, we have finished in the top 4 7 times, and average 4th overall. 

We have played in 4 of the last 10 Grand Finals and whilst we have lost them all, the reality of it has been that we have played our part in magnificent Grand Finals, losing good games of RL. Surely if there were fundamental issues we wouldn't even be walking out at Old Trafford?

We have also played in 3 of the last 10 Cup Finals - losing two classics and winning one brilliantly upsetting Saints. Again, would a club which such fundamental issues even be in these games?

We also won the LLS in 2017.

It seems that we have talked ourselves into a bit of a crisis here, that we needed somebody to come in and tear up the squad and rebuild. I think the rebuild we needed was to move replace players due to age limits, but we are talking replacements for Hill, Ratchford, Cooper etc - we appear to have gone a little bit over the top and given everyone a kicking.

As things stand, Powell's results are delivering the worst table position we have seen since 2002 when we finished 10th under David Plange and co.

I always think it's really important to make sure we understand the problems that you are trying to fix, and I think Powell has gone over the top and at the moment, he is making an almighty balls up of it to be brutally honest.

People got a bit hysterical about our limping out of the playoffs for the last 3 years, but ignore the rest of the season.

As per my first line though, I remain supportive of him, I believe he is a god coach and has good tactical philosophies, but his performance at Wire has been nothing short of disastrous if we are going to judge him after 15 or so games (which is too early obviously).

[latchford albion]

I'm obviously disappointed by how the season has gone so far, but I'm keeping faith in Powell.  In some ways it's similar to Tony Smith's first season - albeit he took over after we'd already lost the first four games of the season rather than having a pre-season with the team.

If it wasn't for the cup win, that season would have appeared as a bit of a disaster: London put 60 on us, Wakey, Hull KR and Salford ran up big scores against us as well as the usual thrashing by Saints. But with the benefit of hindsight, Smith was changing the culture and the next three years were definitely the most successful in all my years of support (I went to my first match - a loss to Huddersfield - in 1971).

I don't live in Warrington any more and so can't gauge the mood of the fans towards Powell, but it seems that of the wire fans on here, most if not all are still supportive.  If there's been no improvement by this time next year then that's another matter.

 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, latchford albion said:

I'm obviously disappointed by how the season has gone so far, but I'm keeping faith in Powell.  In some ways it's similar to Tony Smith's first season - albeit he took over after we'd already lost the first four games of the season rather than having a pre-season with the team.

If it wasn't for the cup win, that season would have appeared as a bit of a disaster: London put 60 on us, Wakey, Hull KR and Salford ran up big scores against us as well as the usual thrashing by Saints. But with the benefit of hindsight, Smith was changing the culture and the next three years were definitely the most successful in all my years of support (I went to my first match - a loss to Huddersfield - in 1971).

I don't live in Warrington any more and so can't gauge the mood of the fans towards Powell, but it seems that of the wire fans on here, most if not all are still supportive.  If there's been no improvement by this time next year then that's another matter.

 

I broadly feel the same as yiu mate, but not sure the Tony Smith comparison is right. Smith took over in an emergency as Lowes had tanked us. We'd finished 6th the previous year, but finished terribly and then started the next year in the same vein. Smith took over a sinking ship. 

Powell hasn't had to do that, he took over a team finishing 3rd in the ladder, we were solid (but depressingly boring), it's worrying how far many of the same players have dropped off. 

If we look at the last regular game of last year where we won at Cas we have only lost Mamo and Hill from the starting 13 and Austin from the bench. Powell has the rest of that team at his disposal. 

[latchford albion]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I broadly feel the same as yiu mate, but not sure the Tony Smith comparison is right. Smith took over in an emergency as Lowes had tanked us. We'd finished 6th the previous year, but finished terribly and then started the next year in the same vein. Smith took over a sinking ship. 

Powell hasn't had to do that, he took over a team finishing 3rd in the ladder, we were solid (but depressingly boring), it's worrying how far many of the same players have dropped off. 

If we look at the last regular game of last year where we won at Cas we have only lost Mamo and Hill from the starting 13 and Austin from the bench. Powell has the rest of that team at his disposal. 

Can't really argue with your points Dave, I was trying to look on the bright side - not a common thing on a RL forum I'll grant you.  

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, latchford albion said:

Can't really argue with your points Dave, I was trying to look on the bright side - not a common thing on a RL forum I'll grant you.  

Haha fair point. Like you, I'm still behind Powell, even if he has ballsed some things up, I'm still bought into his philosophy and he should be given the chance to deliver it. 

[Desert Skipper]

The Smith comparison isn’t that easy. Smith is a great coach who inherited a poorly performing side, but a side arguably far stronger than the current one and both stronger and more expensive than the other sides in the league. It still took him two years to make us grand final contenders. Granted, we had the two cup wins, but Radford had two consecutive cup wins also, so the cup isn’t really a measure of consistently playing at the top.

Where we can draw comparisons is the fact that both Smith and Powell shook things up straight from the off. Smith ditched the country’s best centre in Gleeson and brought in Mathers who was way out of form. He also challenged Briers to prove the doubters wrong. Powell is ditching a few top players who he thinks won’t offer much in terms of culture change. That doesn’t mean they’re not top individuals, just not the solution at Warrington. Watson did the same at Hudds and had an awful first season. It’s looking as good as it has been for a while for them this year though.

As Latchford said, let’s see how we are this time next year.

[Dave T]

44 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

The Smith comparison isn’t that easy. Smith is a great coach who inherited a poorly performing side, but a side arguably far stronger than the current one and both stronger and more expensive than the other sides in the league. It still took him two years to make us grand final contenders. Granted, we had the two cup wins, but Radford had two consecutive cup wins also, so the cup isn’t really a measure of consistently playing at the top.

Where we can draw comparisons is the fact that both Smith and Powell shook things up straight from the off. Smith ditched the country’s best centre in Gleeson and brought in Mathers who was way out of form. He also challenged Briers to prove the doubters wrong. Powell is ditching a few top players who he thinks won’t offer much in terms of culture change. That doesn’t mean they’re not top individuals, just not the solution at Warrington. Watson did the same at Hudds and had an awful first season. It’s looking as good as it has been for a while for them this year though.

As Latchford said, let’s see how we are this time next year.

There can't be too many examples of taking a team from 3rd in the table to 10th so quickly (hopefully temporarily). 

Most do tend to build on what they have, not trash it. 

Hudds finished 10th and 7th before Watson took over and they ended 9th.

If we dropped off a touch and were say, 5th or 6th, these comparisons would be valid. 

Again, none of this us to apply pressure, I just don't think we need to sugar coat that he has failed so far. But hopefully we stay patient and its early days. 

[Barry Badrinath]

19 hours ago, latchford albion said:

I'm obviously disappointed by how the season has gone so far, but I'm keeping faith in Powell.  In some ways it's similar to Tony Smith's first season - albeit he took over after we'd already lost the first four games of the season rather than having a pre-season with the team.

If it wasn't for the cup win, that season would have appeared as a bit of a disaster: London put 60 on us, Wakey, Hull KR and Salford ran up big scores against us as well as the usual thrashing by Saints. But with the benefit of hindsight, Smith was changing the culture and the next three years were definitely the most successful in all my years of support (I went to my first match - a loss to Huddersfield - in 1971).

I don't live in Warrington any more and so can't gauge the mood of the fans towards Powell, but it seems that of the wire fans on here, most if not all are still supportive.  If there's been no improvement by this time next year then that's another matter.

 

This doesn't necessarily answer your last question,  but does give an inkling on how some are thinking

 

https://twitter.com/WireBoycott?t=yP6TW5aeDDM9CX2JsXmaNQ&s=09

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Barry Badrinath

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

This doesn't necessarily answer your last question,  but does give an inkling on how some are thinking

 

https://twitter.com/WireBoycott?t=yP6TW5aeDDM9CX2JsXmaNQ&s=09

 

 

Jeez

[Just Browny]

I'm not panicking yet. Powell has already eradicated our major failing under Price, which was our consistent underperformance in play-off/semi-final games.

[meast]

23 hours ago, Desert Skipper said:

This. Powell has a record of improving every club he’s coached at. He’s turning things upside down in the camp, and maybe that’s unsettling the status quo. It’s something that clearly needs to be done though.

Powell is big into leaders and leadership, rather than individual quality. I’m hoping this is the key to building a new era, rather than just another NRL coach maintaining the comfort of being a ‘nearly men’ club filled with expensive acquisitions. Or to put it another way: ‘Leaders create change, managers just maintain it’.

Powell is getting the benefit of the doubt from me. I’m sure he’ll make a few mistakes along the way, but he is the best option available right now and one with a proven track record.

You could be describing Ian Watson and Huddersfield in 2021.

[Dallas Mead]

1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

I'm not panicking yet. Powell has already eradicated our major failing under Price, which was our consistent underperformance in play-off/semi-final games.

That wins the internet today

[Dallas Mead]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Jeez

#KissKamOut

[meast]

1 hour ago, Barry Badrinath said:

This doesn't necessarily answer your last question,  but does give an inkling on how some are thinking

 

https://twitter.com/WireBoycott?t=yP6TW5aeDDM9CX2JsXmaNQ&s=09

 

 

Thought they'd already boycotted judging by the half empty stands and terraces  

[Tommygilf]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

There can't be too many examples of taking a team from 3rd in the table to 10th so quickly (hopefully temporarily). 

Most do tend to build on what they have, not trash it. 

Hudds finished 10th and 7th before Watson took over and they ended 9th.

If we dropped off a touch and were say, 5th or 6th, these comparisons would be valid. 

Again, none of this us to apply pressure, I just don't think we need to sugar coat that he has failed so far. But hopefully we stay patient and its early days. 

To be fair Dave, win 2 games or so (which hasn't been impossible) and you're in that 6th place with what is clearly a poorly performing side. Win a couple more and you're in 5th!

That said I didn't think Wire looked great when they scraped past a 12 man Rhinos team in the season opener tbh, nothing since has changed my opinion. 

I think there are a number of teams who are just not very good all round this year in Super League, or at least aren't consistently good. We're seeing that from basically Hull FC in 5th down it is almost entirely down to form and a coin toss who wins games between that group of clubs. That makes form crucial as slides and rises through the table are exaggerated even more by how close things are. 

Last season Leeds and Warrington both managed to finish in the top 5 despite neither looking particularly brilliant all season. 

Add to that mixture how Price to Powell is a major culture and coaching style change and it's bound to be a difficult transition in a single off season. Its going to be difficult for Powell too because this is the first real coaching job where he and his team have had money to play with and higher expectations with that. This hasn't been a Holbrook's St Helens style transformation nevertheless; and perhaps that is the critical failure.

[Dave T]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

To be fair Dave, win 2 games or so (which hasn't been impossible) and you're in that 6th place with what is clearly a poorly performing side. Win a couple more and you're in 5th!

That said I didn't think Wire looked great when they scraped past a 12 man Rhinos team in the season opener tbh, nothing since has changed my opinion. 

I think there are a number of teams who are just not very good all round this year in Super League, or at least aren't consistently good. We're seeing that from basically Hull FC in 5th down it is almost entirely down to form and a coin toss who wins games between that group of clubs. That makes form crucial as slides and rises through the table are exaggerated even more by how close things are. 

Last season Leeds and Warrington both managed to finish in the top 5 despite neither looking particularly brilliant all season. 

Add to that mixture how Price to Powell is a major culture and coaching style change and it's bound to be a difficult transition in a single off season. Its going to be difficult for Powell too because this is the first real coaching job where he and his team have had money to play with and higher expectations with that. This hasn't been a Holbrook's St Helens style transformation nevertheless; and perhaps that is the critical failure.

I don't think this is true and is part of the rewriting of history that seems to be going on at Warrington when people try and equate this to when Smith took over a basket case of a team who had won zero for almost two decades, or Huddersfield who had finished 10th and 7th when they brought Watson in. 

Wire were a strong team who lost only 6 regular season games last year. They beat Catalans in France, Saints in St Helens, Wigan at the DW and Leeds at Headingly. They were 1 point behind St Helens in the table. Wire's problem wasn't that they were a poor team, it was that they played the kind of RL that made you consider going watching Rugby Union. 

To tear up everything good about that team has been reckless self-harm by Powell and team imo. They should have been building on that platform.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dave T

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

I don't think this is true and is part of the rewriting of history that seems to be going on at Warrington when people try and equate this to when Smith took over a basket case of a team who had won zero for almost two decades, or Huddersfield who had finished 10th and 7th when they brought Watson in. 

Wire were a strong team who lost only 6 regular season games last year. They beat Catalans in France, Saints in St Helens, Wigan at the DW and Leeds at Headingly. They were 1 point behind St Helens in the table. Wire's problem wasn't that they 

Indeed, but they they were also quite dour too if the complaints were to be believed - and by the looks of things they also had a squad that got the very highest result out of it possible.

Powell hasn't been brilliant, but Warrington's squad isn't brilliant either. As I said, win a couple of games and it all looks a bit more rosey.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed, but they they were also quite dour too if the complaints were to be believed - and by the looks of things they also had a squad that got the very highest result out of it possible.

Powell hasn't been brilliant, but Warrington's squad isn't brilliant either. As I said, win a couple of games and it all looks a bit more rosey.

apologies, i pressed submit too early, have edited and address the dour point.

On your last line, I was optimistic about that before last week, but the problem is that the other teams will be picking up the odd win too.

Whilst the quality of the squad is subjective, any squad that has Ashton, Ratchford, King, Widdop, Williams, Cooper, Clark, Currie in it should not be lying in 10th over halfway through the season.

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

apologies, i pressed submit too early, have edited and address the dour point.

On your last line, I was optimistic about that before last week, but the problem is that the other teams will be picking up the odd win too.

Whilst the quality of the squad is subjective, any squad that has Ashton, Ratchford, King, Widdop, Williams, Cooper, Clark, Currie in it should not be lying in 10th over halfway through the season.

Not a problem, I did think it was odd that you stopped part way through but in any case I do see what you mean. 

Wakefield beating Hull FC has put a bit of a cat amongst the pigeons in that respect, but believe me at Leeds we are/were in a similar position. As you say you have a squad good enough to come better than where you are now and should pick up some wins. Sometimes players do just under perform though.

[Damien]

Cooper to join Wigan next season. I can't say I'm too thrilled really, hope he didnt cost too much:

Mike Cooper to join Wigan - Wigan Warriors

[graveyard johnny]

sign that cracking forward who plays for hudds- wire could really do with someone like him- chris? something?