This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

23 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Franchising involves picking the highest potential markets.  So we obviously wouldnt be choosing areas where game is strong but places that could grow. 

It is far more likely that img will be seeking a team in cities like edinburgh Dublin and London  (with no guarantee they let Hughes still own it) than current teams. 

It is why if this nonsense about finish in top seven champ next year to get in is true then the RFL is the most incompetent org out there. I think actually they are just lying to avoid annoying clubs they dont want and will start to pick them off. 

There is a simple way to have a proper p and r. A SL of 14 with no loop fixtures and no paying for travel.  

Franchising is taking the money from the highest bidders....

[Saint Toppy]

35 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Franchising didn't work, and wont again..

 

Franchising as a system does work - what didn't work in RL last time was the incompetent idiots in Red Hall administering it with criteria that moved with the wind.

If they'd done it properly last time we'd have a far more stable & valuable product to sell now. Things like minimum ground standards, minimum Turnover requirements, minimum investment limits on youth & development etc.

Instead they just seemed to base it on Angela Powers weekly ground visit reports on bogs, baby changing & price of burgers.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Saint Toppy

[Oxford]

How did a thread about P&R become more about Franchising?

We could spend years refering to the quite obvious foibles, inconsistencies and incompetence around Franchising and the criteria it was so laughingly based upon.

A quick look at the stadia of some clubs who were in it then and in it now should be enough to spotlight the nonsense of its application or lack of it.

A quick review of the arguments put forward for Franchising and every other change should be enough to deter any debate if we're being logical or  it could just provide enough  material for Peter Kay to do a decade of Brian Potter Chairman of the RFL!

The only reason there's an argument about the number of clubs in SL is because the top clubs want to keep their share as high as possible.

And sadly the arguments for and againt things on here are only marginally better because we're all too connected and involved to see the wood for the proverbial. And the evidence is clear,  there is no umbilical cord attaching P&R to Franchising.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Oxford

[sweaty craiq]

Generally Franchising is selling the rights to operate a slice of a business for a designated area for a specific amount of cash - the key operative being SELLING the rights

In RL terms if we sold Franchises we raise cash to promote the sport - similar to attracting a third party who take a percentage of future income, thats the buying on the Tik way.

[David Shepherd]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

we never had franchising, though.

Franchise Agreement: 20 Important Things to Know - Small Business Trends (smallbiztrends.com)

Semantics. We all know what franchising (or licensing) means.

[crashmon]

Outside of Football, there is not enough players and talent coming through to support enough clubs in order for P&R for any sport in this country on a professional level.  That is the problem facing both Union and League here.

[Liverpool Rover]

Just because the type of licensing we had last time didn't really work doesn't mean that it can't work at all. P&R doesn't really do anything to grow the game IMO because when teams from outside the heartlands get into Super League you can only guarantee that they will be there for one season and by the time teams are promoted most of the players that they would need to sufficiently improve the team would have been signed up elsewhere.

[Man of Kent]

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/rugby-league-clubs-expected-to-be-cut-adrift-with-huge-img-move-53903/

That's two RL journalists I've heard talk of Dublin. The other being Phil Caplan.

The times they are a-changin'.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Man of Kent

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/rugby-league-clubs-expected-to-be-cut-adrift-with-huge-img-move-53903/

That's two RL journalists I've heard talk of Dublin. The other being Phil Caplan.

The times they are a-changin'.

The quotes in that are from Mick Gledhill. 

[Man of Kent]

Just now, Dave T said:

The quotes in that are from Mick Gledhill. 

Phil Caplan has spoken recently about Dublin too. I tend to believe these rumours of major change afoot. 

[Dave T]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

Phil Caplan has spoken recently about Dublin too. I tend to believe these rumours of major change afoot. 

Id be stunned if IMG came up with a proposal of Dublin and Edinburgh. 

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Id be stunned if IMG came up with a proposal of Dublin and Edinburgh. 

Honourable journalists like Caplan don't make up stuff like that, and Gledhill would struggle to come up with such rumours with his own brain cells. 

Edinburgh does seem a bit outlandish, mind you. Dublin would seem more likely.

[Jughead]

For IMG’s first action to be forming a new club in a country with relatively little foundations in that country would be a strange move. 

 

[Man of Kent]

10 minutes ago, Jughead said:

For IMG’s first action to be forming a new club in a country with relatively little foundations in that country would be a strange move. 

 

With Dublin I believe the thinking is they would tap into the RU playing/spectator base. 

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

With Dublin I believe the thinking is they would tap into the RU playing/spectator base. 

That just doesn't sound like a sound idea at all. It's sounds like the usual stuff we try. 

The only way things like this could even be on the table would be if IMG could pull together a pile of investors who are happy to throw millions into franchising. 

[Toby Chopra]

20 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

With Dublin I believe the thinking is they would tap into the RU playing/spectator base. 

Because that always works...

They'd be lucky to see out the season. And I'm sure IMG know this and won't be suggesting anything of the sort. 

[Man of Kent]

Just now, Dave T said:

That just doesn't sound like a sound idea at all. It's sounds like the usual stuff we try. 

The only way things like this could even be on the table would be if IMG could pull together a pile of investors who are happy to throw millions into franchising. 

I get the idea. There’s not quite enough ‘Super’ clubs in Super League and with the greatest will in the world they’re never going to come from small districts in Wakefield or Wigan.

So, we may have to come up with some new ones in large population centres like Dublin.

 

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That just doesn't sound like a sound idea at all. It's sounds like the usual stuff we try. 

The only way things like this could even be on the table would be if IMG could pull together a pile of investors who are happy to throw millions into franchising. 

Dublin isn't a particularly big city (Belfast is bigger, for example*) and it already has quite a mature sports market, I believe. RU is a reasonable deal but any strategy based on luring existing supporters of union isn't one that's going to work, is it?

Is the thinking being that we can get an additional TV deal from RTE or Premier for ROI coverage?

* = edit: turns out, it isn't, because it's wiki doing that thing of putting the metro figure first for some but not others. Dublin still ain't massive though.

Edited June 6, 2022 by gingerjon

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That just doesn't sound like a sound idea at all. It's sounds like the usual stuff we try. 

The only way things like this could even be on the table would be if IMG could pull together a pile of investors who are happy to throw millions into franchising. 

Exactly. New locations will only work if there's millions of quid coming from somewhere to make up for the fact that they'll have relatively poor crowds for the first few years at least.

And that money won't be coming from existing funds, so it will rely on them getting outside interest and that's not the sort of thing that you can conjure up out of nothing.

I'd wager it will only be possible if investors can see a few years of evidence IMG improving the prospects of rugby league's EXISTING clubs first. Then maybe someone dips their toe in.

That's why it's a 12 year deal. 

[Jughead]

I could only see IMG seeking for investors into clubs/events rather than IMG sticking a pin in a map and going with that, which is a very RFL type way of doing things. 

Part of me wants it to happen to see the inevitable reaction when people realise how much a pint costs in Dublin. 

[Man of Kent]

18 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

If you dont make money off the infrastructure then its a no go. Plus Dublin with association football on friday nights in Summer, plus GAA plus Union, that´s really a crowded market. I agree that they will be looking at a bigger market outside traditional heartland, they kind of have to. 

Indeed. Hence the Dublin rumours. 

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I get the idea. There’s not quite enough ‘Super’ clubs in Super League and with the greatest will in the world they’re never going to come from small districts in Wakefield or Wigan.

So, we may have to come up with some new ones in large population centres like Dublin.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Exactly. New locations will only work if there's millions of quid coming from somewhere to make up for the fact that they'll have relatively poor crowds for the first few years at least.

And that money won't be coming from existing funds, so it will rely on them getting outside interest and that's not the sort of thing that you can conjure up out of nothing.

I'd wager it will only be possible if investors can see a few years of evidence IMG improving the prospects of rugby league's EXISTING clubs first. Then maybe someone dips their toe in.

That's why it's a 12 year deal. 

I understand the aim of working on getting population centres interested, but a proposal of starting clubs in these cities now is putting the cart before the horse and is basically what we did with PSG in year 1.

My belief is that we have to arrange ourselves to be as attractive as possible for external investors to want to buy in. And not to buy in in 2023, but maybe in 5 years, or 10, or 15 and so on. 

It's where I supported licensing, create the best league you can within current team make-up, scrap auto P&R and basically invite buy-in, show that you have a competition that eliminates the need for working through the pyramid, or risks it all being undone with relegation. 

I expect this will be their answer, but to get it voted through they'll water it down by pandering to too many existing clubs that overlap. 

Create a vibrant comp by hand picking the strongest set of teams, and invite applicants (existing or new) with a very clear process, maybe including buy-in fee. 

Maybe even source investors as part of the process. 

Just saying we should expand to Dublin or Edinburgh is the same as 1994's conversations. 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Indeed. Hence the Dublin rumours. 

What did Caplan say in this? I'll completely dismiss anything MG says, but I like Caplan. 

Was he just playing fantasy RL like us here or was it a serious rumour? 

[paul hicks]

21 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

I think that is a fantastic idea. Lets go with that instead, at least the fans of the merged clubs will be happy then as well.

most fans never seem happy so its not really a big change

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What did Caplan say in this? I'll completely dismiss anything MG says, but I like Caplan. 

Was he just playing fantasy RL like us here or was it a serious rumour? 

I had a chat with him when I was up in Leeds a couple of weeks ago for the national tag rugby comp. I asked him what he thought IMG’s involvement would entail and among many things - more internationals, more trans-hemisphere club comps, monetisation of women’s and wheelchair RL - he mentioned Dublin. Not Edinburgh though.

I had the same bewildered response as you but he’s close to Gary Hetherington, who negotiated the IMG deal, and so it may have legs. IMG seem to be thinking big.