37 of 42 back IMG’s proposal

[Dave T]

People who think that things remain constant are either being extremely dishonest, or are not intelligent enough to understand what happens in the world. 

My club, Warrington are a perfect example of how things change. We have been in the top flight for our entire history, yet our fortunes have been very different. 

At the start of SL we were rubbish, in a rubbish ground. We were in the mix with the likes of Halifax, Cas, Wakey, Workington, Oldham etc. Now we are predicted to be a Grade A club by most people. 

We can also look at Bradford being an SL leader for a spell - look at them now. 

Things change, they will continue to change. Even with or without a secure place in SL some clubs will rise and fall. 

It's all very simple. People are pretending it's impossible to understand are only making themselves look silly. 

I understand people not liking the system, but let's not ask daft questions to pretend it's weirdly complicated. 

[DI Keith Fowler]

9 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

His point is you’re asking questions that have already been answered before in good faith 

Giving up now. Not going to waste time on someone too dense to make any argument above just being obtuse. 

[GUBRATS]

51 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the sooner we accept there are no real conspiracies or dodgy shenanagins then the happier we will be. 

And I do think this is where a 3rd party coming in as the judge of clubs is better than the RFL who maybe have some baggage. 

It's not perfect, and we will always have judgement calls, so there will always be claims of unfairness, but I think in reality, IMG want to make millions out of RL, they are going to judge based on that. 

The most bizarre claims I see in RL circles is that the game has shown loads of favouritism to the likes of Wakey, Cas, London etc. I'd understand the claims more if they were aimed at Saints, Leeds, Wigan etc. as they are the clubs getting the real benefits from the current systems. 

The favouritism you refer to boils down specifically to stadiums Dave , standards were set 20 years ago , but worded that if you were already in SL then you were excempt, twice ' allowances ' were made for CAS , Wakey just never came close and then we saw London be allowed in using essentially an amateur club/ wedding venue 

That fact is indisputable, and some will say " it's not all about stadiums " , well no it isn't , but that doesn't make it right 

And again with the semi franchise/licencing/P and R structure we see on the horizon , ownership looks to be 9/10s of the law , so you can understand people's cynicism

Feel free to reply but I'll not continue this line of discussion , I think we've done enough over the years 

[Tommygilf]

33 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  In theory but unless there  is a drastic drop in playing performance and the club has a big drop in revenue you know they will be safe.Wigan,Saints.Warrington,Leeds,and Hull K.R/Hull FC will be safe for the 12 years. KR would be my choice of the Hull clubs due to their on and off field performance after promotion from Championship.

That is how it is now really, relegation is so far away for most of those teams. So in practice for the rest nothing changes, save there being a more long term and successful route to growth.

[Tommygilf]

34 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Tommy, how can the rich owner clubs ever lose the "A" grade, suggest to me which of the chosen six could really go belly up with no new owner to take over. Their new status will protect them....... 

The whole point is building more clubs like that, and those that are there building further. 

That would be an excellent result.

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

some will say " it's not all about stadiums " , well no it isn't , but that doesn't make it right 

Stadiums were never the sole criteria.

It's that simple.

Doesn't stop people deliberately missing the point and pretending that they were, of course.

[Adelaide Tiger]

37 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Would you kindly set out your vision of how we will have more clubs like that please? 

You have a lot to say about what other people think.

How about YOU telling us what your vision for the future of the fane is ….. I am off to bed now and I doubt I will see any response from you when I get up in the morning.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

No one is disputing - literally no one - that the game under the elite professional level needs supporting.

Some of us have been advocating a proper and fair whole game solution for a long, long time.

Some others seem to believe that this fairness includes a small number of Championship clubs getting significantly more funding than the rest.

Thankfully, ridiculousness like that seems to be on its way out.

Agreed.

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I know all that, and conceed that without the funding the semi pro game will suffer hardship, start to wilt then waste away, subsequently towns and communities will be lost to the game - forever - and without the focal point of the 'pro'club' in those towns the amatuer side of the sport will also be effected which will have consequences for the whole game, it won't happen overnight but it won't take long. You are not daft enough to believe that all the players we produce come from SL towns and all the Sky customers who only subscribe for RL come from SL towns, keeping these clubs alive is the result of the funding they recieve it is not as some describe @Tommygilfwasted money it is benefitting the game as a whole, simply for the game to thrive the sport needs to exist below SL level. If IMG put all their eggs in the SL basket and neglect the game below that action will result in unintended and unwelcome consequences for the sport.

Now you're doing the classic of equating the Championship and League 1 with grass roots RL. They aren't the same thing.

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Now you're doing the classic of equating the Championship and League 1 with grass roots RL. They aren't the same thing.

Not a clue what that means.

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not a clue what that means.

Leigh Leopards aren't Leigh Miners or Leigh East. Dewsbury Rams and Batley Bulldogs aren't Dewsbury Celtic, Dewsbury Moor, Mirfield Stags, Staincliffe, Batley Boys or Birstall Victoria.

Supporting grassroots rugby league, the foundations of the game, and supporting the Championship and League 1 clubs, aren't the same thing.

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, steve oates said:

Well six SL clubs are now protected for life, who else is left who in your opinion can prove that they will bring irreplaceable value to the competition??.

I doubt it'll be 'protected for life' with no questions asked, it'll be possible to lose Cat A status if you no longer meet all the criteria. 

As for who else could be Cat A, it seems that HKR has the most building blocks in place and a deliverable plan to get Cat A within 3-5 years. 

Every other club has a whole load of ifs and buts attached to them so it's just speculation and/or wishful thinking. 

And IMG have already said Cat A won't be handed out on the basis of promises, but on actual delivery, so that's why I'm sceptical about whether there will be more than 6 or 7 Cat As in the next few years, so the gangway will remain open for a lomg while yet. 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The favouritism you refer to boils down specifically to stadiums Dave , standards were set 20 years ago , but worded that if you were already in SL then you were excempt, twice ' allowances ' were made for CAS , Wakey just never came close and then we saw London be allowed in using essentially an amateur club/ wedding venue 

That fact is indisputable, and some will say " it's not all about stadiums " , well no it isn't , but that doesn't make it right 

And again with the semi franchise/licencing/P and R structure we see on the horizon , ownership looks to be 9/10s of the law , so you can understand people's cynicism

Feel free to reply but I'll not continue this line of discussion , I think we've done enough over the years 

You answered your own post. It's not all about stadiums. 

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, steve oates said:

A........  Who exactly will make a category A club beyond the chosen six and how will they achieve this???

B.......  What "Lot more things" will IMG be doing to make the game bigger and better?

For me they have made the top six clubs happy with their guaranteed derbies and their guaranteed Super League status.

Anyway two important  questions for you Oxy and anyone else..............

Okay Steve in answer to your questions:

1) or A ...I have no idea but suspect the categories and whole restructure business was at the behest (?) of those in SL clubs with power and influence. So your idea that it makes only certain clubs happy holds water.

2) A lot of this is supposition, of course, but they'll be tackling more investment and income streams generally is what I imagine is happening behind the scenes.

3) I have also presumed they'll be tackling the level of media coverage the sport gets but as yet I've seen no evidence of this or the income streams side of it.

All along I've been voicing my disquiet about this and apart from the vociferous supporters of the whole idea no one has actually discussed what might be going on in any real sense. And even the supporters look like simple cheerleaders in their posts.

The top six clubs have to fall a long way before even reaching any danger zone and funnily enough they seem to be shoe ins without having to do anything. This is akin to ofsted saying a school is outstanding or requires improvement without actually doing the inspection! And yet no one seems to think there's anything wrong with that!

I hope that covers what you asked,.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Oxford

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The favouritism you refer to boils down specifically to stadiums Dave , standards were set 20 years ago , but worded that if you were already in SL then you were excempt, twice ' allowances ' were made for CAS , Wakey just never came close and then we saw London be allowed in using essentially an amateur club/ wedding venue 

That fact is indisputable, and some will say " it's not all about stadiums " , well no it isn't , but that doesn't make it right 

And again with the semi franchise/licencing/P and R structure we see on the horizon , ownership looks to be 9/10s of the law , so you can understand people's cynicism

Feel free to reply but I'll not continue this line of discussion , I think we've done enough over the years 

To add one final point here. When people highlight Wakey etc. They do appear to conveniently forget that Leigh were admitted into SL when they played at Hilton Park. 

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To add one final point here. When people highlight Wakey etc. They do appear to conveniently forget that Leigh were admitted into SL when they played at Hilton Park. 

That's because when we argue issues like this we fall into the trap of looking at it though the them and us glasses rather the whole game spectacles. I do suspect the restucture for making people think this way and for giving some sides an easier ride and that should be acceptable to no one who wants the whole of RL to improve.

[super major]

18 hours ago, DimmestStar said:

I wouldn't think so. Unlike Hull KR you still wouldn't have an elite academy, you wouldn't have 6,000 season ticket holders, you wouldn't own your own ground and you wouldn't have any hope of being self sustainable.

The new investment into Hull KR hasn't just fallen into the club's lap it's the product of years of hard work and commitment. Admittedly the purchase of the ground and several acres of surrounding land has been a real game changer and this is all thanks to owner Neil Hudgell. He could have spent his money on signing a Greg Inglis every year but instead has invested into the long term future of the club.

The new board members won't even have anything to do with playing matters their remit is how to make best use of the ground and surrounding land to make Rovers self-sustainable for years and decades to come. With one of the 'parcels' of land Rovers now own having planning permission for new housing that's likely to be a an initial easy win. 

The club's excellent CEO Paul Lakin has hinted at major concerts being held at Craven Park in 2023 and beyond. Of course as owners, all proceeds to Hull Kingston Rovers.

Rovers probably won't initially have an A licence but the club is hell bent on getting there ASAP and becoming one of the big hitters in Super League. Now having attracted the support of the most successful entrepreneurs in the city it's not a case of how but when.

Suprising how these new investors appear just when there is a chance of making money on the land gifted by the council

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, steve oates said:

A........  Who exactly will make a category A club beyond the chosen six and how will they achieve this???

B.......  What "Lot more things" will IMG be doing to make the game bigger and better?

For me they have made the top six clubs happy with their guaranteed derbies and their guaranteed Super League status.

Anyway two important  questions for you Oxy and anyone else..............

Sorry, where and when have they done this, I must have missed it somewhere?

[dkw]

7 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Sorry, where and when have they done this, I must have missed it somewhere?

They haven't, that poster is basically making stuff up, then asking questions while totally ignoring any answers given to him. Hes the worst kind of forum user, claims he's here to discuss things when in reality he just wants to shout about how terrible it is. 

[Big Picture]

6 hours ago, Oxford said:

It's very clear what the intention is to everyone, at least I hope so.

Investors and broadcasters and media generally need to see the sport as great, worthwhile and having substantial interest levels.

As it is the same broadcasters and media that have created the image of the sport and maintained it for a fair wee while this is an interesting collision.

The basic question, and it's always the basic ones, is does a restructure provide that? Will having category A teams and more on the way flood the place with investment and overwhelm us with newspaper column inches ( you have to talk in inches to predecimal man)?

Some posters have already proclaimed this as the essential key.

I know this won't be the only element and IMG will be doing a lot more things to achieve their goals.

As for trickle down economies the least said the better.

No a restructure does not provide that and having category A clubs will not change anything.

The reason is simply that as @GUBRATShas pointed out there aren't in truth any category A clubs in British RL.  As he performed us, not even Wigan could provide a big time, modern presentation of the sport absent the luck of having a facility adjacent to their stadium and being able to take it over and that is because not even Wigan has the profile and stature necessary for their stadium management to see value in letting them do those things in the stadium itself.  And that's hardly category A is it?

The game's problem is rooted in the lack of the profile and stature within its clubs (even its top clubs) and that is rooted in the fact of them being located in smallish, unfashionable, ecomomically deprived towns in the North.  They simply don't meet the first rule of business success (location, location, location) and IMG won't be able to change that for them.

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

I doubt it'll be 'protected for life' with no questions asked, it'll be possible to lose Cat A status if you no longer meet all the criteria. 

As for who else could be Cat A, it seems that HKR has the most building blocks in place and a deliverable plan to get Cat A within 3-5 years. 

Every other club has a whole load of ifs and buts attached to them so it's just speculation and/or wishful thinking. 

And IMG have already said Cat A won't be handed out on the basis of promises, but on actual delivery, so that's why I'm sceptical about whether there will be more than 6 or 7 Cat As in the next few years, so the gangway will remain open for a lomg while yet. 

I think people have misunderstood this Cat A protection quote. They will be exempt from relegation whilst they are Cat A, but they still need to maintain the standard to retain the Cat A rating, and they will be reviewed. If they don't then they can be relegated as a Cat B/C club.

[dkw]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

there aren't in truth any category A clubs in British RL. 

How can you claim that without knowing the criterua for each Category, have you seen more info than literally every person involved? 

[Big Picture]

8 minutes ago, dkw said:

How can you claim that without knowing the criterua for each Category, have you seen more info than literally every person involved? 

Of course I haven't, but the facts pointed out by @GUBRATSabout Wigan suggest that the only way they can make category A would be if the criteria are fudged.

[Oxford]

I will say this again all clubs should start outside Category A and have to earn the right to be there. There are several reasons for this some of which I've already posted above. Unless you believe that some clubs are already perfect and have no areas where improvement is necessary. I know it's difficult for a fan of any side to be sensible about their passion but you never know!

Edited January 7, 2023 by Oxford

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

To add one final point here. When people highlight Wakey etc. They do appear to conveniently forget that Leigh were admitted into SL when they played at Hilton Park. 

Indeed Dave ,and money was spent to bring Hilton Park up to the accepted levels required for promotion ( yes hard to believe isn't it ?) Whereas other clubs already in SL did not need to meet those same levels , and in Cas's case still doesn't despite twice being relegated and readmitted , as for Trailfinders ? 

Sooner they get this criteria sorted the better ,because until they do the mistrust will just fester