37 of 42 back IMG’s proposal

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

22 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  Weren't Hull KR permitted promotion to Super League,  by winning games on the pitch,during the tenure of Nigel Wood;twice?

Yes. And I would have been just as happy if we'd moved to an IMG-style model earlier, and we'd achieved entry through other means. I think the business case would have written itself, once the club had sorted itself out. In fact I think the club would likely have done some things in a different, better, order had we not had to execute the daft "spend £500k more than our competitors on wages to ensure promotion" plan as phase one. 

[Harry Stottle]

37 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I agree with the 2nd para, 100%. But my message has consistently been that there's a valid, exciting, hugely worthwhile role for them to play in a system that takes a long-term approach to elite comp entry whilst still being meaningful existing in another tier. The idea that the only purpose of Featherstone etc. is to strive for entry to Super League is self-defeating. Without the need to do that by over-spending your competitors for 2 or 3 seasons, clubs could achieve so much more against a wider set of goals - including the ones you describe.

For too long the obsession with simplistic promotion and relegation as a means of team development has held the game back.  

Honest answer HKB, but for that push for promotion and gaining it do you consider that yourself and those 8,000 or so that get along to Craven Park would still do so?

Or put another way if HKR were to be locked out of SL and no matter how well they performed in the division below and there wasn't your "Bridge" available to traverse to SL do you still consider that those fans would still be there?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  Weren't Hull KR permitted promotion to Super League,  by winning games on the pitch,during the tenure of Nigel Wood;twice?

Rochdale are only allowed a reduced capacity by the stadium owners/football club.

I dare say I could have a night out with a glamorous female.Ain't gonna happen.

I'm not interested in hearing about your wet dreams.

[Oxford]

17 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

My reference is to the Woods/Rimmer era, which is characterised by a race to the bottom. I’m not sure any review of what different actors did in the 90’s, 80’s, 70’s or whatever is ever really good to add much to today’s debate. 
 

If anyone truly believes Featherstone, Keighley, Rochdale et al are the solution to Rugby Leagues present “grow or dribble away” challenge then I’ve a bridge to sell them to. We are where we are, it is what it is. 

You keep using the "race to the bottom"  which is a point of view I don't share anymore than some clubs are holding us back.

If the parallels and similarities of different eras in RL portray an essential pattern which I believe they do, then it's all data to be used in the what not to do or re-do. As GS said about being doomed to repeat stuff.

It isn't necessarily Fev et al that will be involved but the clubs percieved as " of little value" and the loss of such clubs altogether seems to be a price people not involved in them are willing to pay on their behalf.

 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

You keep using the "race to the bottom"  which is a point of view I don't share anymore than some clubs are holding us back.

If the parallels and similarities of different eras in RL portray an essential pattern which I believe they do, then it's all data to be used in the what not to do or re-do. As GS said about being doomed to repeat stuff.

It isn't necessarily Fev et al that will be involved but the clubs percieved as " of little value" and the loss of such clubs altogether seems to be a price people not involved in them are willing to pay on their behalf.

 

 

Nobody's talking about the loss of clubs. All we're saying is there are more intelligent ways to determine who enters the elite comp and its associated media rights base than "who won a tier 2 comp by spending money they didn't have paying wages other teams wouldn't?".

We've tried that for decades, it hasn't worked. Interestingly, it also hasn't seen clubs like Featherstone make it into the elite comp. And yet, what d'ya know, they're still here!!! As they should be, and would be under a more evolved model.

 

 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Honest answer HKB, but for that push for promotion and gaining it do you consider that yourself and those 8,000 or so that get along to Craven Park would still do so?

Or put another way if HKR were to be locked out of SL and no matter how well they performed in the division below and there wasn't your "Bridge" available to traverse to SL do you still consider that those fans would still be there?

Nobody gets locked out under the IMG model. 

Of course Rovers wouldn't have 8,000 attendees in the lower tier. But they've got the business case that they can demonstrably deliver it in the elite tier if given the opportunity, a progressive story on ground development, Academy pathways, wide community impact through the Foundation, and other value-add to the game. If Rovers got relegated this season, and promotion/relegation ended, the IMG model would provide a pathway for clubs like Hull KR to achieve re-entry. Just not some other clubs who couldn't demonstrate that wider set of measures. I'm fine with that. 

If we keep doing the same things, we'll get the same results (at best)

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Nobody's talking about the loss of clubs. All we're saying is there are more intelligent ways to determine who enters the elite comp and its associated media rights base than "who won a tier 2 comp by spending money they didn't have paying wages other teams wouldn't?".

We've tried that for decades, it hasn't worked. Interestingly, it also hasn't seen clubs like Featherstone make it into the elite comp. And yet, what d'ya know, they're still here!!! As they should be, and would be under a more evolved model.

 

 

 

"Nobody's talking about the loss of clubs. "

Well I'd suggest that would be a good place to start for each loss there is a loss of RL fans people who'd have turned up at other RL events and no longer see the point.

Fev are likely to be there no matter what that's true, but phrases such as a "more evolved  model" evocative as they are, are in the words of Paul Simon "Empty as a pocket!"

Edited December 7, 2022 by Oxford

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 minute ago, Oxford said:

"Nobody's talking about the loss of clubs. "

Well I'd suggest that would be a good place to start for each loss there is a loss of RL fans people who'd have turned up at other RL events and no longer see the point.

Fev are likely to be there no matter what that's true, but phrases such as a "more eveolved  model" evocative as they are, are in the words of Paul Simon "Empty as a pocket!"

It's hardly empty words. The outline plan has been disclosed, the detail on the scoring factors will come in 2023. 

You've just unilaterally decided that the loss of guaranteed promotion and relegation will somehow mean some clubs will die. Why on earth would they? You think the fans of Rochdale Hornets watch them each year hoping for promotion to Super League? That's nonsense-on-a-stick. Almost all of the clubs in the Championship tiers have neither been promoted to, or relegated from, Super League. They haven't died despite that. The onus is on you to provide some supporting evidence for your doomsday imagination stuff, not me.  

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It's hardly empty words.

I'm afraid phrases like "more evolved" are just that!

Edited December 7, 2022 by Oxford

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

7 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I'm afraid phrases like "more eveolved are just that!

More evolved. It means better, an improvement on what came before, in response to external factors and lessons learned about what is needed to succeed in the environment. Sometimes might involve something more complex. Sometimes simpler.

So no. they're not empty words. They have a specific meaning... you just don't like them, or don't have a decent argument to advance, so want to play semantics instead. 

[Angelic Cynic]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Nobody gets locked out under the IMG model. 

Of course Rovers wouldn't have 8,000 attendees in the lower tier. But they've got the business case that they can demonstrably deliver it in the elite tier if given the opportunity, a progressive story on ground development, Academy pathways, wide community impact through the Foundation, and other value-add to the game. If Rovers got relegated this season, and promotion/relegation ended, the IMG model would provide a pathway for clubs like Hull KR to achieve re-entry. Just not some other clubs who couldn't demonstrate that wider set of measures. I'm fine with that. 

If we keep doing the same things, we'll get the same results (at best)

There are some clubs currently in Super League, who will also stay there,despite not involving themselves in ground development because the stadia is owned by soccer clubs.

Clubs outside of the 'elite' are not permitted Academies.Those elite clubs,FC and KR,found it necessary,on recently,to merge into one Academy.

Other clubs run Foundations who are not in Super League. 

If these are the set of measures that IMG have reimagined I really am impressed.

Really...

[Oxford]

29 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

More evolved. It means better, an improvement on what came before, in response to external factors and lessons learned about what is needed to succeed in the environment. Sometimes might involve something more complex. Sometimes simpler.

So no. they're not empty words. They have a specific meaning... you just don't like them, or don't have a decent argument to advance, so want to play semantics instead. 

There is only the suggestion that it is any better than what went before. I'm glad you think so and thanks for the defintion of it I feel much more evolved now.

You also dismissed my argument which i didn't point out before. It's not so much semantics though as it is analysis of what's being said.

I will say this, IMG will succeed but not talking about the cost doesn't mean there isn't one.

One of the things the guy from IMG great about RL and a real strength was where it's based so when the smoke clears you can come back and tell me if that's still true.

 

[Oxford]

28 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

There are some clubs currently in Super League, who will also stay there,despite not involving themselves in ground development because the stadia is owned by soccer clubs.

Many of these are also the shoe ins for Category A and exemption from relegation ........er?

[Gav Wilson]

24 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Many of these are also the shoe ins for Category A and exemption from relegation ........er?

Are they?

[Oxford]

4 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Are they?

Are they not, Gav?

[Gav Wilson]

23 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Are they not, Gav?

Well, Hull KR reckon 4 clubs will initially get a grade A, so I highly doubt it.

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

Many of these are also the shoe ins for Category A and exemption from relegation ........er?

St Helens, Warrington, Catalans and Leeds Rhinos are four of the bigger clubs in Super League and no football clubs play on any of those four stadiums, as is also the case I believe at Hull KR, Cas and Salford.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

There is only the suggestion that it is any better than what went before. I'm glad you think so and thanks for the defintion of it I feel much more evolved now.

You also dismissed my argument which i didn't point out before. It's not so much semantics though as it is analysis of what's being said.

I will say this, IMG will succeed but not talking about the cost doesn't mean there isn't one.

One of the things the guy from IMG great about RL and a real strength was where it's based so when the smoke clears you can come back and tell me if that's still true.

 

I swear you sometimes write your words in slightly the wrong order, in an attempt to seem erudite. It doesn't work 

Let me know when the first club disappears. 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

There are some clubs currently in Super League, who will also stay there,despite not involving themselves in ground development because the stadia is owned by soccer clubs.

 

Much as I'm loathe to defend Hull FC, this is twaddle. The stadium in Hull would not have been built without them, and it was done with public funds. The fact that they were later done over by the designed-to-be-independent Stadium Mgt Company and some Machiavellian maneuvering by Hull City doesn't change that reality. The same is true with Wigan. No Wigan Warriors, no stadium built. Huddersfield still own 20% of theirs, and the council have the controlling stake so the fact the football club has a bigger share is totally irrelevant. 

Next nothingburger....

 

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

No Wigan Warriors, no stadium built.

No Dave Whelan, no DW stadium.

And what was his first love that he retracted to?

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

No Dave Whelan, no DW stadium.

And what was his first love that he retracted to?

Doesn't mean my point isn't also true - all children have more than one parent.

The DW stadium was built for both clubs, and would not have been built as it is for just Wigan Athletic. The fact the stadium isn't owned by Wigan RL, or jointly, is down to politics and the decision of Athletic's last adminstrators. Doesn't change the reality of why the stadium exists. 

[phiggins]

23 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I agree with the 2nd para, 100%. But my message has consistently been that there's a valid, exciting, hugely worthwhile role for them to play in a system that takes a long-term approach to elite comp entry whilst still being meaningful existing in another tier. The idea that the only purpose of Featherstone etc. is to strive for entry to Super League is self-defeating. Without the need to do that by over-spending your competitors for 2 or 3 seasons, clubs could achieve so much more against a wider set of goals - including the ones you describe.

For too long the obsession with simplistic promotion and relegation as a means of team development has held the game back.  

Kind of agree and disagree at the same time. Ultimately, this is a sporting competition, and the primary aim of each club is to produce a team that wins as many games as possible, at the highest level possible.

We need a competition that allows this still to be a goal, but one of my hopes for the IMG proposals is that it promotes behaviours that would make this success more sustainable. And these behaviours aren't going to look the same for every club.

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

36 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Kind of agree and disagree at the same time. Ultimately, this is a sporting competition, and the primary aim of each club is to produce a team that wins as many games as possible, at the highest level possible.

We need a competition that allows this still to be a goal, but one of my hopes for the IMG proposals is that it promotes behaviours that would make this success more sustainable. And these behaviours aren't going to look the same for every club.

 

Yes I'd want us to build the Championship into something that people saw like that - just as teams fight to win the Queensland Cup for what it is, without promotion. 

Clubs can then 'compete' for promotion in a different pathway, just like competing Queensland clubs did for the 17th NRL spot in last few years

[Oxford]

17 hours ago, Jughead said:

St Helens, Warrington, Catalans and Leeds Rhinos are four of the bigger clubs in Super League and no football clubs play on any of those four stadiums, as is also the case I believe at Hull KR, Cas and Salford.

Very true that!

[Oxford]

17 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I swear you sometimes write your words in slightly the wrong order, in an attempt to seem erudite. It doesn't work 

Let me know when the first club disappears. 

 

I'm sorry you have trouble with the way I write.

I don't think you'll notice when it happens for the second part.