IMG Grading Unveiled

[David Shepherd]

4 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

No but what incentives people to put money in? That they can see a path to the top. The system designed means it is impossible to see that path to the top so there is no reason to put money in. Which is what we will see when champ clubs pull the plug on funding and the current SL clubs responsible for the collapse in the tv deal linger on

I'd argue that the exact opposite will happen. There is a clear path to the top. It's not easy and nor should it be. Moreover, the metrics proposed ensure that it adds value to the sport as a whole, rather than just the ego of a Campbell or a Beaumont. (or a me if I ever win the euromillions).

[David Shepherd]

5 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Slide 15 suggests it doesn't. 

It clearly points to league positions based on points.

 

But nowhere does it indicate that the top 12 teams are incumbents.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

Just now, ShropshireBull said:

This isn’t Australia, and pray tell what happened to the champ when promotion and relegation was nixed?

You won’t mind if Hull KR switch with a club in the champ then? Of course not, meaningful games for your club but tough luck everyone else

 

It won't happen to Hull KR in the new model because the club is already investing in the right long-term things to grow the club, and help grow the game. It might happen to Hull KR under the current model though, where despite doing all of those long-term things an injury crisis might mean we get relegated to be replaced by a club whose only merits are they spent money they didn't have in order to pay their players more than the part-timers they compete against in the Championship, only to get relegated the next year having contributed little beyond having a "year in the sun" for 2,000 fans. Great. 

If someone designed the current set-up and pitched it to us, we'd all say it was ridiculous. 

[dboy]

8 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Slide 15. Get your Labrador to woof it to you.

 

edit - B can replace B. If they have a higher score.

None of these slides are about P&R.

The presentation is about the grading system.

So rather than be a snide , answer the question of where it has been revealed that they have dropped the "B replaces B" rule.

[David Shepherd]

5 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

No opportunity exists because under the criteria they will always be ranked lower than the worst SL club. You don’t seem to believe that even though it is very clear and when an owner of one of the clubs in the meeting he come out and said that it seems pretty irrefutable 

Have you even read the proposal?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

People need a straw man, because they struggle to argue that having current promotion criteria of "any small town that happens to have a bloke in it prepared to blow a year's profit from his chain of fried chicken shops to run a full time squad against part-timers for a couple of years" is somehow a better idea than this one.

The whole idea's nuts. 

As did a lawyer in a Far East town not to long ago.

[MattSantos]

1 minute ago, David Shepherd said:

But nowhere does it indicate that the top 12 teams are incumbents.

Also very true and an excellent point.

It'd be very interesting to see the indicative gradings (and hopefully scores) when they're released. Is this due end of the season? Then what happens in 2024 as we wait to go live in 2025?

 

[muckymunksy]

Renting a ground should be a B 

[MattSantos]

1 minute ago, dboy said:

None of these slides are about P&R.

The presentation is about the grading system.

So rather than be a snide , answer the question of where it has been revealed that they have dropped the "B replaces B" rule.

I havent said that rule has been dropped. I'm merely saying that if you win the Champ and score 13th, the document illustrates that you're not going up.

 

[David Shepherd]

3 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It won't happen to Hull KR in the new model because the club is already investing in the right long-term things to grow the club, and help grow the game. It might happen to Hull KR under the current model though, where despite doing all of those long-term things an injury crisis might mean we get relegated to be replaced by a club whose only merits are they spent money they didn't have in order to pay their players more than the part-timers they compete against in the Championship, only to get relegated the next year having contributed little beyond having a "year in the sun" for 2,000 fans. Great. 

If someone designed the current set-up and pitched it to us, we'd all say it was ridiculous. 

It could happen to HKR or any other club if x number of teams do it better than HKR or any other club. That's a good thing, because it means that the value of the entire competition has increased.

[The Blues Ox]

Has anyone got the exact meaning for the word "big" when it comes to the big screen as me mate Dave has offered to take his 70" widescreen down the Shay each week if its going to help us grab a point.

[MattSantos]

1 minute ago, MattSantos said:

Also very true and an excellent point.

It'd be very interesting to see the indicative gradings (and hopefully scores) when they're released. Is this due end of the season? Then what happens in 2024 as we wait to go live in 2025?

 

On that, would anyone score higher than an incumbent? Fev maybe? Are Toulouse included? Who would they score higher than? Wakey?

[David Shepherd]

4 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Also very true and an excellent point.

It'd be very interesting to see the indicative gradings (and hopefully scores) when they're released. Is this due end of the season? Then what happens in 2024 as we wait to go live in 2025?

 

Yeah, mock grades at the end of this year. Proper grades towards the end of 24, ready for the start of the 25 season.

[David Shepherd]

4 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

I havent said that rule has been dropped. I'm merely saying that if you win the Champ and score 13th, the document illustrates that you're not going up.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by David Shepherd

[Derwent Parker]

11 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

The only purpose of the grades that we can confidently ascertain is that an A grade keeps you safe. Whatever happens. If we have 15 A grades, then we have a league with 15 in it. If we have 22 clubs with an A grade, we have 22 clubs in the top league. I like this.

No we wont - SL wont share their CF - that's why there is only 12 now.

24M /12 = £2M each do you think they will divide 24M by 22 teams = £1.1M each 

Your having a laugh

The Champ has been a bit lop sided for years now.  Leigh, Fev, Toulouse ,have been out of reach of most other Champ teams for a while now  with Batley, Fax etc not far behind. And well done to them.

The whole league system would be better if those top teams mentioned above were put in SL and we could have 2 big leagues . Because L1 with only 9 home matches is disgraceful. How can you generate income from that.

But it wont happen because the teams in SL wont share the pot.

Hence why some refer to it as Super Greed

[MattSantos]

Just now, David Shepherd said:

Yeah, mock grades at the end of this year. Proper grades towards the end of 24, ready for the start of the 25 season.

The timing of the release in 2024, and ongoing, will be crucial with respect to players contracts etc.

I hope this small things like transfer windows etc are looked at as they're a huge part of the 'problem'.

[The Blues Ox]

In all seriousness though I'd like to hear what provisions are in place for when a Cat B team is dumped out of SL as we are going to get teams who simply do not have the income to support FT rugby on relegation and we may still end up with teams running in to trouble finacially. If this ranking system came in this year and it was Wakey still in this position where their future looks bleak if they were to be dropped how would they be looked after?

[MattSantos]

1 minute ago, Derwent Parker said:

No we wont - SL wont share their CF - that's why there is only 12 now.

24M /12 = £2M each do you think they will divide 24M by 22 teams = £1.1M each 

Your having a laugh

The Champ has been a bit lop sided for years now.  Leigh, Fev, Toulouse ,have been out of reach of most other Champ teams for a while now  with Batley, Fax etc not far behind. And well done to them.

The whole league system would be better if those top teams mentioned above were put in SL and we could have 2 big leagues . Because L1 with only 9 home matches is disgraceful. How can you generate income from that.

But it wont happen because the teams in SL wont share the pot.

Hence why some refer to it as Super Greed

We're being told differently. 

I think we're a hell of a long way off from >12 A grades, but it's a goal we should all only endorse. 

[redjonn]

2 minutes ago, dboy said:

None of these slides are about P&R.

The presentation is about the grading system.

So rather than be a snide , answer the question of where it has been revealed that they have dropped the "B replaces B" rule.

I guess I have no idea, as not being in meeting listening to slide presentation I have no idea what was said, implied, indicated or not said.  The key being what was communicated in addition to slides or doc's we may have available to browse.

I can only go by slides and assumptions, that somebody already with the benefits of SL may just have a slightly higher marking or grading points than someone without the benefits of being in SL brings.  Now whether that is taken account of or dismissed in a case of 2 similar overall graded clubs I have no idea.

[The Blues Ox]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

But once you start counting they get all the benefits of being in the top division so they are the de facto incumbents. 

Not related but fair play to Derek, he has played an absolute blinder here. Spend whatever it took to Win promotion , stay up the year Wakey tank and be comfortably ranked above  13th team. 

Hilarious that growing the game will mean locking in Leigh. Hats off to Derek

Leigh have earnt their place why shouldn't they be in? If anything I would argue they deserve that spot more than some of the teams that have been in SL for a number of years.

[David Shepherd]

4 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

The timing of the release in 2024, and ongoing, will be crucial with respect to players contracts etc.

I hope this small things like transfer windows etc are looked at as they're a huge part of the 'problem'.

The IMG bod on Sky last night indicated it would be earlier than the current end of season dash that the promoted and relegated clubs have.

[MattSantos]

Just now, David Shepherd said:

The IMG bod on Sky last night indicated it would be earlier than the current end of season dash that the promoted and relegated clubs have.

It needs to be.

I like IMG and have a really positive view of what they're trying to do, but it's not a one stop solution. Still a lot of work to do in the underlying fundamentals of how the sport is organised.

[Eddie]

50 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

On recent performance, Fev, TOXII, Halifax, Widnes, Batley.

Some Bulls fans think it's 1999 and there are still foam hands and bullmania hats festooned among their massive crowds.

You’re talking better rather than bigger then, in which case fair enough.  To me bigger is about history, trophies won, attendances, media coverage, ability to draw fans at away games etc, rather than current playing ability. 

[Barley Mow]

14 minutes ago, dboy said:

None of these slides are about P&R.

The presentation is about the grading system.

So rather than be a snide , answer the question of where it has been revealed that they have dropped the "B replaces B" rule.

I could have missed it, but do you have a quote/document showing there is/was an intention for B replacing B to be based on on field performance?

I know they said B's would be able to replace B's, but can't remember IMG ever saying on what basis.

I remember thinking that people were putting their own interpretation on it when it was first discussed as an on field thing.

IMG were specific that on field P&R would remain between Championship and League 1.

[Toby Chopra]

8 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Same that is why I said fair play. It’s also why all cat b’s should be up for p and r on the field. Leigh have gone up , they are no worse then a dozen teams but if they grow to being this 10k supported team, with an academy, that people watch on tv with their pet leopards ? Well then they might have earnt a lock

I won't get that image out of my mind now