NRL Rules Out Pride Round For 2023

[StandOffHalf]

8 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It’s a valid comparison. But you seem to be suggesting that we pander to prejudice, not challenge it. Now that’s a bit lazy don’t you think?

You can think so. I don't think it's comparing like with like. I am against pandering to any group, but I do want an accepting and inclusive sport.

Just a different way of approaching individual values... Can a passive open-heartedness come across as lazy? I suppose to some it might seem that way.

I am an atheist, BTW.

Edited March 15, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[The Masked Poster]

On 15/03/2023 at 16:12, emesssea said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there was a time when people were opposed to aboriginals playing RL and it was a topic of division, and people did sit out rather than play alongside or against them. It was only over time and through various civil rights movements that that stigma went away and those whole held onto it were considered backwards and ostracized.

.

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

I do want an accepting and inclusive sport.

I haven't seen the figures either way on this so it's an open question.

Do you think rugby league in the UK is representative of the towns it's played in? 20% of the population of Wakefield district area is something other than White British (for example). Is that reflected in who is playing and watching?

And if we could keep the answers to people who've played this century, that would be handy.

[DoubleD]

3 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

I don't know who you are but want to thank you for bringing some reality to this thread. You're correct that gay people will find a way of doing things they are interested in whatever. Of course, statements like " no gays allowed" would deter people but aside from extremes like that, the notion that straight people write the rules as to what they can enjoy or not is ridiculous. 

It's absolutely about making certain people feel better about themselves rather than the concerns of any gay people. Look at this thread as an example, I am ridiculous and a troll apparently. Despite being more involved in this than 99% of posters on here. 

 

And if this forum is so welcoming, why aren't there more gay contributors? I will answer that question..... because it's not. 

Maybe we should create a gay section on the forum, to make them feel more inclusive?

[emesssea]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

And yet, RL produced superstars of the game who are genuinely revered like Artie Beeston and Mal Meninga  or latterly Jonathan Thurston. In the UK, legends like Ellery Hanley (arguably the most revered player still alive.... possibly usurped only by Billy Boston.

So while it's not a sign that we can put the cue on the rack and declare it job done, it's proof that RL didn't just talk the talk or simply make gestures. It allowed anyone to make a career in RL regardless of their background. I don't think that should be sneered at or disregarded as old news. 

I won't claim to be an RL historian, but I highly doubt RL welcomed black and aboriginal players with open arms as the rest of society shunned them, I imagine RL's attitude shifted alongside society as whole's attitude (due to previously mentioned civil rights movements).

Baseball to has produced genuinely revered superstars like Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, and Ken Griffey Jr. Doesnt change the fact it barred black americans from playing, and Robinson was called the N word by fans and his own teammates considered not playing alongside him. But society evolved and baseball was forced to go along with it.

As we evolve and progress as a society, its quite possible in 50 years we'll be able to rattle of names of famous and revered gay RL players, but we'll will also probably have found a new marginally group to hate by that point as well

[StandOffHalf]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

I haven't seen the figures either way on this so it's an open question.

Do you think rugby league in the UK is representative of the towns it's played in? 20% of the population of Wakefield district area is something other than White British (for example). Is that reflected in who is playing and watching?

And if we could keep the answers to people who've played this century, that would be handy.

The main question to my mind is:

Are teams representative of those in the community that are interested in rugby league?

I am Irish, so am not the best person to offer an opinion.

[The Masked Poster]

On 15/03/2023 at 18:56, emesssea said:

I won't claim to be an RL historian, but I highly doubt RL welcomed black and aboriginal players with open arms as the rest of society shunned them, I imagine RL's attitude shifted alongside society as whole's attitude (due to previously mentioned civil rights movements).

Baseball to has produced genuinely revered superstars like Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, and Ken Griffey Jr. Doesnt change the fact it barred black americans from playing, and Robinson was called the N word by fans and his own teammates considered not playing alongside him. But society evolved and baseball was forced to go along with it.

As we evolve and progress as a society, its quite possible in 50 years we'll be able to rattle of names of famous and revered gay RL players, but we'll will also probably have found a new marginally group to hate by that point as well

"

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[The Masked Poster]

On 15/03/2023 at 18:26, DoubleD said:

Maybe we should create a gay section on the forum, to make them feel more inclusive?

'

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[gingerjon]

10 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

This was progress. 

The past tense is the important thing.

From 2020:

"Only five black players have represented England since 2011; in the same period, 12 have been capped by their union counterparts. In the past three years, 16 black players have played for England’s senior men’s football team. “Football are in the communities doing regular work and rugby league isn’t,” Simmons says. “Until you have proper pathways at the bottom, the numbers at the top will never change.”

There is a feeling of the black community being worryingly underrepresented in other areas, too. The professional game has one black head coach – London Skolars’ Jermaine Coleman, who will also take charge of Jamaica at the 2021 World Cup – and there is not a single black chief executive or administrator. “You don’t need an opinion – the facts speak for themselves,” says Leon Pryce, the former Great Britain international who shares Robinson’s views."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/10/black-people-are-hurting-british-rugby-league-inclusivity-crisis

The Negro Leagues, by the way, are now fully integrated into the major league baseball records. Far, far, far too late and they should never have had to exist but, thankfully, I don't see too many people in baseball (a deeply, deeply conservative sport in the US) going, "Well, we had Jackie Robinson before college football had black players so I don't think we need to do anything now. How about we send messages to each other saying how great we were."

[gingerjon]

17 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Just from cursory observation, I would say that the percentage of lesbians in women's RL is significantly higher than in the rest of the population.

That happened naturally. No ostentatious attempts to make people feel welcome. Everyone just knows that they are. And no scope for narcissists to pursue their own interests by taking it upon themselves to do the welcoming.

Clearly, the problem is with men in general rather than men in RL specifically. Not convinced that Pride rounds can address that. 

There must be a difference in attitude between women's football and women's rugby league, or maybe it's a north/south thing. I say that as someone involved (very much on the periphery) with a fair few women's football clubs down here and they are all very keen on being highly visible LGBT spaces. Possibly other letters too.

Lots of stuff on their socials about players in same sex relationships, lots of stuff on the field with rainbow armbands, all seem to have specific inclusivity days at training sessions and the like, plus, as I put elsewhere, they all seem to sign up to rainbow laces and run the campaign through the year.

There is only one exception to that that I can think of and, perhaps not uncoincidentally, they are the club locally who are bucking the trend and having declining rather than increasing numbers.

[MZH]

On 14/03/2023 at 16:41, David Shepherd said:

I take my lead on issues like this from my daughter (who is gay).

She hates stuff like "Pride", she believes it reinforces the view that gay people are somehow "different". She thinks it's just a way for some straight people to tell the world what nice people they are. I'm inclined to agree with her.

 

That's always been my view tbh. I know that the whole point of Pride is that you should be proud of who you are regardless of your sexuality or gender, and that's great. But if we were a truly inclusive and equal society then sexuality and gender would be total none issues. In 2023 we shouldn't really be making a fuss about the way people live their lives. We are all the same and the LGBTQ+ community should be treated as equals. But instead things like pride just go out of their way to point out how they are different.

It's just virtue signaling. So that straight people can, as you say, tell everyone how nice and tolerant they are.

[Copa]

1 hour ago, MZH said:

That's always been my view tbh. I know that the whole point of Pride is that you should be proud of who you are regardless of your sexuality or gender, and that's great. But if we were a truly inclusive and equal society then sexuality and gender would be total none issues. In 2023 we shouldn't really be making a fuss about the way people live their lives. We are all the same and the LGBTQ+ community should be treated as equals. But instead things like pride just go out of their way to point out how they are different.

It's just virtue signaling. So that straight people can, as you say, tell everyone how nice and tolerant they are.

We aren’t a truly inclusive and equal society.

The vast majority of rainbow alphabet children are born into religious families.

Many of the religions are openly hostile to how these children view themselves. Now some parents may not embrace the hostility but many do. 

Many non religious parents are also hostile to anything “gay”.

All this hostility has resulted in a suicide rate that is heartbreaking and increased rates of mental health distress.

Pride rounds are a sincere effort from many involved to make these young marginalised people to feel welcomed, loved, wanted and normal within a large mainstream community (rugby league).

There might be a few people involved who think it’s about ticking boxes but many are very sincere about using rugby league for social good.

V’landys and Abdo have both said how rugby league made them feel welcome and part of the community after they initially started as outsiders.

The fact that a pride round could cause chaos in the NRL shows that the rugby league community in Australia really does have issues with the rainbow alphabet crowd.

The Sydney Swans (afl) do it without any controversy at all. I suspect rugby league in Sydney has issues is because it’s very popular amongst a much bigger range of communities within Sydney compared to AFL… and when you’re popular everywhere, you’ll get a broader range of reactions.

[unapologetic pedant]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

There must be a difference in attitude between women's football and women's rugby league, or maybe it's a north/south thing. 

My comments related to RL worldwide, so North/South is beside the point.

 

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

 I say that as someone involved (very much on the periphery) with a fair few women's football clubs down here and they are all very keen on being highly visible LGBT spaces. Possibly other letters too.

Lots of stuff on their socials about players in same sex relationships, lots of stuff on the field with rainbow armbands

There have been items for particular occasions about couples Emily Rudge and Gemma Walsh, Rachel Thompson and Rebecca Greenfield. And features in Oz with Ali Brigginshaw, Meg Ward, Shontelle Stowers, among others.

With the proviso that this is conjecture -

I think the percentage of lesbians in women's RL is not only greater than in the population at large as stated earlier but also greater than Soccer and most other sports.

Let's assume that approximately half a typical women's RL team are gay. That alters the dynamic. Inclusivity campaigns are designed for minorities. Our players will be less inclined to spotlight a detail of their personal life which is commonplace in the female RL milieu.

Postscript for the benefit of @David Shepherd who was apparently puzzled by the biblical quotes -

I'm not remotely religious. I see religion as philosophy and scripture as literature. Post was to illustrate that the contrast between virtue and the signalling of virtue is nothing new.

[Chrispmartha]

On 15/03/2023 at 08:33, hw88 said:

I know I'm right!

Don't you see that 'putting people to the fore' is setting them apart, making them different in some way. I'll wager the vast majority of gays just want to get on with life, while most of the straight people are sick and tired of having gay pride rammed down their throats (no pun intended).

Celebrating different aspects of society - maybe we could have a Conservatives for RL Day? Or is that a step too far?

Being a Conservative is a choice. As is getting married (well unless you were gay until recently! and still not in many countries).

Im not sure you speak for 'most' straight people, also Pride is about more than sexuality.

[Chrispmartha]

2 hours ago, MZH said:

That's always been my view tbh. I know that the whole point of Pride is that you should be proud of who you are regardless of your sexuality or gender, and that's great. But if we were a truly inclusive and equal society then sexuality and gender would be total none issues. In 2023 we shouldn't really be making a fuss about the way people live their lives. We are all the same and the LGBTQ+ community should be treated as equals. But instead things like pride just go out of their way to point out how they are different.

It's just virtue signaling. So that straight people can, as you say, tell everyone how nice and tolerant they are.

Do you not see that you are contradicting yourself slightly.

"But if we were a truly inclusive and equal society then sexuality and gender would be total none issues"

We aren't a truly inclusive society, that's the point. In fact we seem to be going backwards in some respects.

You seem pretty close to saying that things like pride are making people intolerant and homophobic. No they are those things to start with.

Same thing happened with BLM - there was a narrative of blaming BLM for people being racist.

[David Shepherd]

28 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Being a Conservative is a choice.

Not sure that's strictly true.

My background would suggest I should be a lefty, but from a young age I've always been far more attracted to right wing (economic) policies. Almost as though I'm hard wired to think that way. 

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

Not sure that's strictly true.

My background would suggest I should be a lefty, but from a young age I've always been far more attracted to right wing (economic) policies. Almost as though I'm hard wired to think that way. 

But it's still a choice to vote for or join the Conservative party.

[David Shepherd]

38 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Do you not see that you are contradicting yourself slightly.

"But if we were a truly inclusive and equal society then sexuality and gender would be total none issues"

We aren't a truly inclusive society, that's the point. In fact we seem to be going backwards in some respects.

You seem pretty close to saying that things like pride are making people intolerant and homophobic. No they are those things to start with.

Same thing happened with BLM - there was a narrative of blaming BLM for people being racist.

I don't think he's suggesting that at all. 

I think we are a lot closer to being a truly inclusive society than you think. It's been years since I've heard or seen anything that could be regarded as truly homophobic or racist.  Now that may not be true for some people, but I can only comment on the world as I find it.  As far as my experience goes, they're largely non-issues.

As I said further up the thread, my daughter is gay and I can hand on heart tell you that she has never been disadvantaged in any way, shape or form.  

Edited March 16, 2023 by David Shepherd

[Chrispmartha]

3 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

I don't think he's suggesting that at all. 

I think we are a lot closer to being a truly inclusive society than you think. It's been years since I've heard or seen anything that could be regarded as truly homophobic or racist.  Now that may not be true for some people, but I can only comment on the world as I find it.  As far as my experience goes, they're largely non-issues.

As I said further up the thread, my daughter is gay and I can hand on heart tell you that she has never been disadvantaged in any way, shape or form.  

Transphobic and Homophobic hate crimes are rising in this country.

I am really please your daughter isn't being disadvantaged because of her sexuality however it is still happening, just as racism is still happening.

 

[David Shepherd]

6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Transphobic and Homophobic hate crimes are rising in this country.

 

That's true. However does that mean that more people are coming forward, knowing that as society becomes more tolerant they are more likely to be listened to?

It's odd that the crime survey data for England and Wales shows a clear decline in racist and homophobic hate crime. (not transphobic crime, new category for the last survey).

 

[Chrispmartha]

19 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

That's true. However does that mean that more people are coming forward, knowing that as society becomes more tolerant they are more likely to be listened to?

It's odd that the crime survey data for England and Wales shows a clear decline in racist and homophobic hate crime. (not transphobic crime, new category for the last survey).

 

I suppose its a complex situation with a lot of factors involved.

I just don’t think the its all ok now attitudes help, I personally think we took that attitude in the 90s very prematurely 

[hw88]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

Being a Conservative is a choice. As is getting married (well unless you were gay until recently! and still not in many countries).

Im not sure you speak for 'most' straight people, also Pride is about more than sexuality.

Is it a choice though? Surely some people are more inclined to be conservative while others are more inclined to be socialist. It all depends how ones brain works.

Am I speaking for 'most' straight people? Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, I can only go from my own experience - which is that people are quite happy for gay people to get on with their lives but don't constantly want to hear about it ad infinitum as it is not their business.

[emesssea]

15 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

Then maybe you should look into it a bit more. 

Baseball had 'negro' leagues, pretty sure RL never had such things. Although there certainly were people with discriminationary attitudes, it's not quite the same thing. Nobody 'forced' RL to include black players - huge difference. 

Check out the documentary about Welsh Rugby codebreakers. The emotion some black players showed by simple things like being served in the cafe in Halifax with politeness and even being called 'darling' by the waitress, tells me it's not as irrelevant as it's  being dismissed on here. This was progress. 

And for the hard of reading, this doesn't mean that everything was, or is fantastic. But it is certainly something to be proud of. 

You're right, its not the same thing. I'm going to go out on a limb once again and say the reason we had negro leagues in the US is because we have a significantly large black population that could sustain the leagues spread out across the eastern half of the US pre-war. Don't think the UK or Australia had anywhere near that kind of population. I beleive Australians Indigenous population numbers mirror that of the US' indigenous population, and theres a reason we didn't have the "native american leagues"

And nobody forced baseball to do anything, its attitude on black players shifted alongside the US as whole's view on race and overlaps with the civil rights movements.

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Is it a choice though? Surely some people are more inclined to be conservative while others are more inclined to be socialist. It all depends how ones brain works.

Am I speaking for 'most' straight people? Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, I can only go from my own experience - which is that people are quite happy for gay people to get on with their lives but don't constantly want to hear about it ad infinitum as it is not their business.

Of course voting for or joining the conservative party is a choice, it’s a ridiculous comparison to make.

How are you ‘constantly’ hearing about pride?

[Tommygilf]

49 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Of course voting for or joining the conservative party is a choice, it’s a ridiculous comparison to make.

How are you ‘constantly’ hearing about pride?

Tbf Chris, I don't know how much tv you watch, but in contrast to 30 years ago, openly gay people and storylines feature in practically every TV programme made today. The major exception being most male professional sport. E and D training is also mandatory at most major employers on top of this in which Race and Sexuality form the core basis.

I can see why 'constantly' might be used by someone who remembers how things used to be only a relatively short time ago. Indeed it is an attitude expressed quite commonly in my experience.

Times have changed very fast over the past few decades. There are a lot, arguably the majority, of people who are naturally resistant to change. People also can have what seems like twisted logic in their decision making and politics. I've come across this a lot professionally and politically and I'm happy to discuss further but I don't want the thread moved to the Politics board on my behalf.