Keighley Cougar owners

[GeordieSaint]

32 minutes ago, Dovster said:

Unfortunately the SL clubs in general haven't really moved forward in 25 years. Many of them chased new stadiums at a cost of being tennants and losing the ability to generate extra income. I'm sure many of them wish they had stayed and developed their own grounds. The clubs were wrongly advised by the RFL in to do this in the framing the future document.

I’ll call you out on that. What criteria are you using to make that statement or is it an assumption? 

My club is bigger. In attendances, in revenue generation, success, junior development etc etc. The entire club has professionalised from top to bottom. I imagine if you apply similar metrics (ironically similar to the IMG criteria), the likes of Leeds, Catalan, Hull KR, Warrington are also bigger clubs. There’s definitely an argument for other clubs like Huddersfield and Hull too. Not sure about Wigan as they were a big club pre-SL but I imagine one of the resident Wiganers on here can straighten that out. 

The main problem is the sport (and SL) hasn’t grown fast enough to compete in a changing world and against two major competitors in the NRL and RU. It needs further professionalisation otherwise it’ll continue to be left behind. 

[GeordieSaint]

18 minutes ago, Dovster said:

I'm not entirely sure but I think their idea was more to do with geographical leagues for the third tier.

A plan with no substance attached to it. Great plan. And it’s only SL clubs that are greedy and selfish according to some…

[RigbyLuger]

IMG should have disqualified any club who have fans who refer to the top division as "Super Greed"

[Dovster]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

I’ll call you out on that. What criteria are you using to make that statement or is it an assumption? 

My club is bigger. In attendances, in revenue generation, success, junior development etc etc. The entire club has professionalised from top to bottom. I imagine if you apply similar metrics (ironically similar to the IMG criteria), the likes of Leeds, Catalan, Hull KR, Warrington are also bigger clubs. There’s definitely an argument for other clubs like Huddersfield and Hull too. Not sure about Wigan as they were a big club pre-SL but I imagine one of the resident Wiganers on here can straighten that out. 

The main problem is the sport (and SL) hasn’t grown fast enough to compete in a changing world and against two major competitors in the NRL and RU. It needs further professionalisation otherwise it’ll continue to be left behind. 

I did say Generally speaking and yes it is an assumption based on where we I believe are now. Now we are relying On IMG to sort out all of our troubles and make up for past mistakes. 

I would expect Clubs to be more professional as they have had millions of pounds over 25 years invested by SKY. I'm not entirely sure but I believe the four clubs you named are clubs which own their own grounds.

I agree with your final paragraph. The question I guess is why?

 

[Dovster]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

A plan with no substance attached to it. Great plan. And it’s only SL clubs that are greedy and selfish according to some…

A plan that needs developing yes. 

I don't believe I have ever called super league clubs greedy or indeed have ever heard the Cougars.

[The Masked Poster]

3 hours ago, Dovster said:

That's definitely one way of looking at it. 

I'm not entirely sure but I think their idea was more to do with geographical leagues for the third tier.

That's also one way of looking at it. Another one would be divvying up existing money to fewer clubs so as to get a better share. 

For years we've heard the ludicrous 'Super Greed' accusation. Turns out the ones throwing it around have no room to talk. 

[GeordieSaint]

1 hour ago, Dovster said:

A plan that needs developing yes. 

I don't believe I have ever called super league clubs greedy or indeed have ever heard the Cougars.

I expect (assume) Keighley are fully aware that the infrastructure and finance are not in place to enable such a plan. 

I wasn’t referring to you regarding the ‘greedy’ comment. Others on this topic and elsewhere however, have. 

[Adelaide Tiger]

4 hours ago, Dovster said:

That's definitely one way of looking at it. 

I'm not entirely sure but I think their idea was more to do with geographical leagues for the third tier.

Hmmm ‘geographical league’ is an interesting use of words to describe what the Keighley owners stated.  I am quite sure that the owners never stated ‘geographical leagues for clubs in the Third Tier’ and they never stated that their idea referred to ALL clubs in the Third Tier.

My interpretation of what they stated - and by all means listen to the podcast to see if I am wrong - was to kick out three or four ’non-heartland’ clubs to form their own ‘localised leagues’ to save on travel costs and because those clubs did not bring many supporters.

Therefore Cornwall would somehow have to join a league in the south-west with four or five other clubs of similar semi-pro standards; Skolars to do the same in Lindon/South east; Newcastle etc.  Where these other clubs were to come from was a mystery.  In effect it would force the closure of those clubs.

Tell me, is that something that you would support?

P.S. I have no issue with Keighley saying that they disagree with the IMG proposals as that is their right.

 

Edited April 7 by Adelaide Tiger

[Angelic Cynic]

17 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

Do they still exist as an entity as Hemel did?

Reading stuff today it seems they have retained 'Membership'.Brilliant. 

[Angelic Cynic]

1 hour ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

 

My interpretation of what they stated - and by all means listen to the podcast to see if I am wrong - was to kick out three or four ’non-heartland’ clubs to form their own ‘localised leagues’ to save on travel costs and because those clubs did not bring many supporters.

Therefore Cornwall would somehow have to join a league in the south-west with four or five other clubs of similar semi-pro standards; Skolars to do the same in Lindon/South east; Newcastle etc.  Where these other clubs were to come from was a mystery.  In effect it would force the closure of those clubs.

Tell me, is that something that you would support?

P.S. I have no issue with Keighley saying that they disagree with the IMG proposals as that is their right.

 

My interpretation is that it was in reply to the Grading of these clubs being higher than heartlands clubs.

They then outlined their experiences. 

They then offered an explanation of how to grow the sport with local leagues.

It would seem to be a way,if adopted,to increase both participation and expansion.

It will be ignored,ridiculed,and used against them by those who have failed to invest interest or finance in the wider sport. 

[The Masked Poster]

8 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

My interpretation is that it was in reply to the Grading of these clubs being higher than heartlands clubs.

They then outlined their experiences. 

They then offered an explanation of how to grow the sport with local leagues.

It would seem to be a way,if adopted,to increase both participation and expansion.

It will be ignored,ridiculed,and used against them by those who have failed to invest interest or finance in the wider sport. 

So where are these opponents going to appear from that these discarded clubs would play? 

Who exactly would Cornwall play in their local league? 

It deserves ridicule because it's just a way of getting more funding for the same old faces. Nothing to do with development of the game, it's just an easy way to get more money without actually doing any work. 

And if RL would follow this mentality, it would deserve all it would get. 

[RP London]

10 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

That is because of the unfair CF

SL teams get over 1.5 MILLION each every year which pays for their team [some may add to that] and therefore any other generated income can be used on stadium etc. So thats why they are able to have better stadiums.

Lower league teams spend more money on their teams than their infrastructure because L1 teams for example only get 25K CF which does NOT pay for their team they therefore have to spend any other generated income to complete the build of their team.

That is why the IMG gradings are going to protect the SL teams because 99% of the other teams do not have enough money to do up the stadiums to anywhere near SL levels.

IF Sky money stopped and they were only on 25K - they would struggle too.

And of CF stopped dead they be in the doodoo... and that is a very real possibility without some form of (potentially radical) change 

It's really hard.. I love the expansion teams i love the old teams.. I love the history of the game but its the history.. we HAVE to get commercially better, we HAVE to give the TV companies etc something that is modern and we HAVE to do it pretty sharpish.. 

Is this the only way? No. Is to the way that someone who can really push this if the clubs do their part? Very possibly.. are there any other options on the table? No, because the status quo will (almost) certainly mean no CF for league one and maybe the champ.. because with the super league being the league earning the money and with them having bigger voting rights they WILL pull the funding at some point!. 

I don't like where we are, but I CANNOT see an alternative that works. 

[RP London]

8 hours ago, Dovster said:

I think the bottom line is Keighley can't afford to give 20%. I do agree that more help should be given to the grass roots.

I still can't agree, and I don't think we ever will on the subject of SL subsidising the rest of the RL. This gives the impression of the SL clubs giving hand outs to the unfortunates.

As I have said previously I think of it as money earned by the RFL for the good of RL.

To be fair it's not "giving the impression of", giving handouts to the unfortunates is exactly what it is.. 

It's sad but at the moment it's true.. its exactly where football was in the late 90s up to about 2010 when the EFL started to grow into its own and now earns a good bit of cash itself.. 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, RP London said:

And of CF stopped dead they be in the doodoo... and that is a very real possibility without some form of (potentially radical) change 

It's really hard.. I love the expansion teams i love the old teams.. I love the history of the game but its the history.. we HAVE to get commercially better, we HAVE to give the TV companies etc something that is modern and we HAVE to do it pretty sharpish.. 

Is this the only way? No. Is to the way that someone who can really push this if the clubs do their part? Very possibly.. are there any other options on the table? No, because the status quo will (almost) certainly mean no CF for league one and maybe the champ.. because with the super league being the league earning the money and with them having bigger voting rights they WILL pull the funding at some point!. 

I don't like where we are, but I CANNOT see an alternative that works. 

The Champ and League 1 have tried a TV deal independent of Super League, its OuRLeague or Viaplay paying essentially nothing.

DPs constant argument is like having a child demanding that they get an equal share of their parents wages.

[RP London]

4 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Hmmm ‘geographical league’ is an interesting use of words to describe what the Keighley owners stated.  I am quite sure that the owners never stated ‘geographical leagues for clubs in the Third Tier’ and they never stated that their idea referred to ALL clubs in the Third Tier.

My interpretation of what they stated - and by all means listen to the podcast to see if I am wrong - was to kick out three or four ’non-heartland’ clubs to form their own ‘localised leagues’ to save on travel costs and because those clubs did not bring many supporters.

Therefore Cornwall would somehow have to join a league in the south-west with four or five other clubs of similar semi-pro standards; Skolars to do the same in Lindon/South east; Newcastle etc.  Where these other clubs were to come from was a mystery.  In effect it would force the closure of those clubs.

Tell me, is that something that you would support?

P.S. I have no issue with Keighley saying that they disagree with the IMG proposals as that is their right.

 

The irony being I've played against skolars and they HAD to step up for the food of them and the amateur clubs... that then all grew beneath it and even as a rival amateur club I loved they were in the semi pro ranks and we had our best players go play for them... to keep them down would have hampered the development of the league that became NL3 and the the RLC premier.. and then the RFL fudged it up anyway pulling all support.. round of applause for the rfl everyone...

One of the reasons I am angry with any plan not consulting expansion clubs is due to the above..  Keighley are looking down from their ivory tower... it maybe smaller and less well built than Leeds' bit all the accusations Keighly (and the rest to be fair) can throw at Leeds and super league can equally be thrown by ALL expansion clubs. on from a great height ALWAYS

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The Champ and League 1 have tried a TV deal independent of Super League, its OuRLeague or Viaplay paying essentially nothing.

DPs constant argument is like having a child demanding that they get an equal share of their parents wages.

Totally and the EFL had the same problems early premier league.. now their TV contract is good and helping them get promoted and stay up!! 

[BadlyOverdrawnBoy]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

The irony being I've played against skolars and they HAD to step up for the food of them and the amateur clubs..

What food? Pies or lobbies?

[DI Keith Fowler]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The Champ and League 1 have tried a TV deal independent of Super League, its OuRLeague or Viaplay paying essentially nothing.

DPs constant argument is like having a child demanding that they get an equal share of their parents wages.

I don't agree with everything he's saying but I think (hope) it goes without saying that the lower leagues get *something* of the SL money since the top division wouldn't function without the leagues below.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

I don't agree with everything he's saying but I think (hope) it goes without saying that the lower leagues get *something* of the SL money since the top division wouldn't function without the leagues below.

They would function, maybe not as well, but they would function. 

I totally believe in some of the SL monies being shared with the rest of the sport, but to demand equal levels is simply ludicrous.

[theswanmcr]

Another good win today for Keighley… they’d be racking up those Performance points if the IMG proposals were already in place.

[RP London]

54 minutes ago, BadlyOverdrawnBoy said:

What food? Pies or lobbies?

Fair point... I seem to remember it was jellied eels

[DI Keith Fowler]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They would function, maybe not as well, but they would function. 

I totally believe in some of the SL monies being shared with the rest of the sport, but to demand equal levels is simply ludicrous.

It would function as a semi-professional level above the amateur game. If you want full time players it cannot be SL or bust, it cannot be that every player has to go from academy to first team, it cannot be that every 30 year old player who finds themselves outside of the first team has to retire.

The leagues below function as a safety net, a holding pen, and a developmental league for players. No one in their right mind is going to enter a profession where they either make it and earn good wages or don't and make nothing. Or a sport where there's no winding down possibility at the end of their career or when they find they can't quite compete at the top top level. This isn't NFL where even fringe players are set for life this is a sport where players regularly transition from stars to tradesman, you need these leagues.

Edited April 7 by DI Keith Fowler

[Angelic Cynic]

7 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Another good win today for Keighley… they’d be racking up those Performance points if the IMG proposals were already in place.

The rotters keep defeating those big city clubs geographically situated away from the M62 - Newcastle Thunder,London Broncos,Bradford Bulls,and tonight York RLFC Knights in their Lego Stadium.

Absolute Rotters! Whoever dreamed up winning sports competitive games over a fixed period of time on a piece of grass has no place in any sport anywhere in the world.

America knows best.

 

[Angelic Cynic]

5 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

So where are these opponents going to appear from that these discarded clubs would play? 

Who exactly would Cornwall play in their local league? 

It deserves ridicule because it's just a way of getting more funding for the same old faces. Nothing to do with development of the game, it's just an easy way to get more money without actually doing any work. 

And if RL would follow this mentality, it would deserve all it would get. 

I suppose the Super League clubs would retain the money.

London and Wales already have leagues with a number of clubs.

It would allow heartland clubs to spend central funding on what outsiders consider important. 

It seems the club owners,and followers,of Super League clubs agree with IMG and their reimagining. 

All will be well.

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

It would function as a semi-professional level above the amateur game. If you want full time players it cannot be SL or bust, it cannot be that every player has to go from academy to first team, it cannot be that every 30 year old player who finds themselves outside of the first team has to retire.

The leagues below function as a safety net, a holding pen, and a developmental league for players. No one in their right mind is going to enter a profession where they either make it and earn good wages or don't and make nothing. Or a sport where there's no winding down possibility at the end of their career or when they find they can't quite compete at the top top level. This isn't NFL where even fringe players are set for life this is a sport where players regularly transition from stars to tradesman, you need these leagues.

People do that in RL all the time now.