What’s going on in Yorkshire

[M j M]

Every club is unique. Bucketing them together simply by geography and trying to concoct a unifying theory of the case is not going to achieve much.

The most important thing which ultimately separates a club like St Helens from one like Cas is the wealth of the people behind them, something which over multiple decades has led to a vast divergence in the on and off field position of the clubs.

[JDR]

3 hours ago, OMEGA said:

On a more serious note, the decline in amateur teams, clubs and participation at all age levels in Yorkshire is alarming. 
 

it’s been declining for a couple of decades and is reaching or has reached critical lows.
 

A good barometer is Castleford a Town where RL has been a religion but whose age group amateur clubs are regularly finding that they don’t have enough players to run a team at one age or another. 
 

That dearth of new players over 15 to 20 years is now showing up at Pro level with less players transitioning from Amateur to Pro. 
 

Another issue is the narrowing of the player pyramid base which means a smaller number of high quality players reaching the apex. That in time means the quality of the competition falls pro rata.
 

Add in the falling levels of finance to keep young players in the Youth Systems, with Academy lads being asked to sign contracts worth as little as  £7k a year  

So from an initially jovial thread we’ve actually uncovered a very serious threat to the game. 

I didn't know that about amateur and age group rugby, it doesn't seem that long ago that places like Cas were a hotbed.

[gingerjon]

How does the decline in amateur/community rugby in Yorkshire  compare to Lancashire?

[JM2010]

32 minutes ago, JDR said:

I didn't know that about amateur and age group rugby, it doesn't seem that long ago that places like Cas were a hotbed.

Where would you say the strongest junior clubs are based? 
Clubs like Siddal in Halifax still provide a lot of players for the professional game 

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why leave out Salford and Leigh, much less wealthy than the others but doing a sterling job, nonetheless, of all the Yirkshire clubs Leeds should be nowhere near the position they are in and it is not as though performing badly is a flash in the pan these last few seasons, Hull get accused of having a common denominator through the last few lean years in Adam Pearson how about Garry Hetherington at Leeds?

I left out Salford and Leigh because I’m talking about the last 5 years or so. I hope Salford and Leigh keep growing so they can consistently challenge Warrington, Wigan and Saints

[JDR]

13 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Where would you say the strongest junior clubs are based? 
Clubs like Siddal in Halifax still provide a lot of players for the professional game 

I'm really not sure, just my impressions which are not up to date hence I was interested in what you'd said. There always seemed to be plenty of clubs and players and a fairly strong local scene in the Cas area given the population etc. I could well be basing that on quantity and not necessarily quality.

[Wolford6]

On 04/06/2023 at 19:41, Gomersall said:

You forgot Greater Manchester.

You learn something every day. I always thought it was Crater Manchester.

[Wolford6]

Balancing up will be a task for several years. However, the longest journey starts with a single step.

Yorkshire clubs in Superleague are improving the overall standard of their first team squads by sending duds on loan to Bradford.

 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, JDR said:

I didn't know that about amateur and age group rugby, it doesn't seem that long ago that places like Cas were a hotbed.

It still is, relatively

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

Where would you say the strongest junior clubs are based? 
Clubs like Siddal in Halifax still provide a lot of players for the professional game 

Siddal, like Stanningley and a couple of others, are "mega clubs" at junior level. In essence some young lads play at whatever team till about 13/14 then move to one of these teams to get spotted by the pro academies, then promptly leave said amateur team who struggle to raise a side at u17s for example because their local players didn't make the cut for the import u14s/u15s squad.

So yeah, Siddal do "produce" lots of good young players, but a significant amount of them are not from Halifax...

[GUBRATS]

21 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

You learn something every day. I always thought it was Crater Manchester.

That's Crater Bradford, better known as Odsal 

[Wolford6]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

That's Crater Bradford, better known as Odsal 

I don't mind that insult, because it was once the stomping ground of the Volcano.

[Anita Bath]

42 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

You learn something every day. I always thought it was Crater Manchester.

Aye, not far from Udders-feel and Halifux

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, M j M said:

Every club is unique. Bucketing them together simply by geography and trying to concoct a unifying theory of the case is not going to achieve much.

The most important thing which ultimately separates a club like St Helens from one like Cas is the wealth of the people behind them, something which over multiple decades has led to a vast divergence in the on and off field position of the clubs.

What separates a club like St Helens from one like Leeds then? It isn't the wealth of people behind them is it? 

[Just Browny]

49 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Siddal, like Stanningley and a couple of others, are "mega clubs" at junior level. In essence some young lads play at whatever team till about 13/14 then move to one of these teams to get spotted by the pro academies, then promptly leave said amateur team who struggle to raise a side at u17s for example because their local players didn't make the cut for the import u14s/u15s squad.

So yeah, Siddal do "produce" lots of good young players, but a significant amount of them are not from Halifax...

There might be something in that, but Siddal and Stanningley are clearly more than staging points as both have strong open age sides.

I have chuckled a bit at the West Yorkshire sides' plight so far this year, but I agree with MJM's point about the regional comparisons being a bit daft. Especially since the cream of West Yorkshire talent ends up at Leeds, Saints, Warrington or Wigan - the hills aren't much of a border these days.

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What separates a club like St Helens from one like Leeds then? It isn't the wealth of people behind them is it? 

Poor management of the Rugby department for a number of years now. Got away with it with some elite talent who could turn it on whenever, struggled for consistency since then.

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Poor management of the Rugby department for a number of years now. Got away with it with some elite talent who could turn it on whenever, struggled for consistency since then.

As I said before Tommy, Adam Pearson gets the flack at Hull, is Garry Hetherington beyond blame at Leeds?

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said before Tommy, Adam Pearson gets the flack at Hull, is Garry Hetherington beyond blame at Leeds?

He's got a lot of credit in the bank, far more than Pearson at Hull - they literally aren't in the same solar system on that respective front. 

However I think more and more Leeds fans are starting to question whether new faces need to come through. Tbf even GH seemed to have thought that with Sinfield and I believe briefly Agar being in "director of rugby" roles with responsibility for the playing squad to allow GH to focus purely on the off field stuff. He must be thinking of retirement soon, but understandably won't want to hand the club he 25% owns over to a total novice or newby.

There's often been disquiet and moaning at Leeds about GH's seeming unwillingness to spend money at times. Some of that has been quelled, but equally other aspects of it remains. Our squad right now seems very odd, though how much of that is down to ths requests of the coach who himself was a bit of a cheap option I'm not sure. GH seems to be 100% backing the coach, but as fans turn it will be interesting to see if and when he takes action (either a public statement of approval or the opposite).

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

There might be something in that, but Siddal and Stanningley are clearly more than staging points as both have strong open age sides.

I have chuckled a bit at the West Yorkshire sides' plight so far this year, but I agree with MJM's point about the regional comparisons being a bit daft. Especially since the cream of West Yorkshire talent ends up at Leeds, Saints, Warrington or Wigan - the hills aren't much of a border these days.

They do but likewise they are attractive open age players for similar reasons.

I agree the geography is a minor factor here. What is telling is that till Wakey's stand is open, only Leeds (and maybe KR) will be playing in a majority modern, self owned and appropriately sized RL venue. Cas is a dump, Huddersfield is far too oversized and Hull FC isn't much better. Warrington and Saints both have good sized modern venues, Leigh likewise even if they don't own it and even Wigan isn't terrible, though I'm sure they would like their own Langtree Park. 

Perhaps local council support, or lack of it, is more indicative here. Where it has been there, RL clubs have generally done well; where it hasn't, they have generally not done as well. 

[GUBRATS]

55 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They do but likewise they are attractive open age players for similar reasons.

I agree the geography is a minor factor here. What is telling is that till Wakey's stand is open, only Leeds (and maybe KR) will be playing in a majority modern, self owned and appropriately sized RL venue. Cas is a dump, Huddersfield is far too oversized and Hull FC isn't much better. Warrington and Saints both have good sized modern venues, Leigh likewise even if they don't own it and even Wigan isn't terrible, though I'm sure they would like their own Langtree Park. 

Perhaps local council support, or lack of it, is more indicative here. Where it has been there, RL clubs have generally done well; where it hasn't, they have generally not done as well. 

So basically like all Yorkshiremen the council's are tight as ? 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So basically like all Yorkshiremen the council's are tight as ? 

Or they have more (RL club) mouths to feed.

Hull, Leeds, Wakefield, Huddersfield, Doncaster, York and maybe Sheffield (its complicated) have in the past 20 odd years received direct council support for redevelopment or play out of a council built stadium their club was a planned component for. Cas and Fev also have access to a £2 million grant each from Wakefield Council to go specifically towards stadium works. Additionally Hunslet play out of council owned facility they have operated in since it opened - though its a tad short to be considered purpose built for RL.

That still leaves, Halifax, Dewsbury, Batley, KR, Keighley, Bradford (along with Cas and Fev till they dip into their grants) as having essentially no LA involvement in the development of their RL infrastructure in at least the past 25 or so years.

So in fairness at least as many clubs have received some support as West of the Pennines, but I'd concede that the support West of the Pennines has generally been more productive, more RL specific and therefore impactful, and seemed to have occurred earlier than in Yorkshire which is playing catchup. Part of that was fortune, how many Tesco Extras are getting opened nowadays, but you've still got to take the opportunities presented to you.

[Barley Mow]

30 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Or they have more (RL club) mouths to feed.

Hull, Leeds, Wakefield, Huddersfield, Doncaster, York and maybe Sheffield (its complicated) have in the past 20 odd years received direct council support for redevelopment or play out of a council built stadium their club was a planned component for. Cas and Fev also have access to a £2 million grant each from Wakefield Council to go specifically towards stadium works. Additionally Hunslet play out of council owned facility they have operated in since it opened - though its a tad short to be considered purpose built for RL.

That still leaves, Halifax, Dewsbury, Batley, KR, Keighley, Bradford (along with Cas and Fev till they dip into their grants) as having essentially no LA involvement in the development of their RL infrastructure in at least the past 25 or so years.

So in fairness at least as many clubs have received some support as West of the Pennines, but I'd concede that the support West of the Pennines has generally been more productive, more RL specific and therefore impactful, and seemed to have occurred earlier than in Yorkshire which is playing catchup. Part of that was fortune, how many Tesco Extras are getting opened nowadays, but you've still got to take the opportunities presented to you.

Am I right in thinking that Halifax, Bradford and Hunslet all also play at Council owned stadiums?

Although they have had different degrees of direct input and development/upkeep over that 20 odd year period.

Edit - Apologies, you did mention Hunslet.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Am I right in thinking that Halifax, Bradford and Hunslet all also play at Council owned stadiums?

Although they have had different degrees of direct input and development/upkeep over that 20 odd year period.

Edit - Apologies, you did mention Hunslet.

I wasn't 100% with including Halifax, given they sold up at Thrum Hall and then have moved of their own accord to share another ground that happens to be council owned, though I'm not sure exactly when that became the case. Tbh I don't know enough about the move either to judge.

The leasehold for Odsal, which given it is a peppercorn rent is the main title, is owned by the RFL.

[Fevrover]

22 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Even that shopping centre, is Mile's behind the Trafford Centre this side of the pennines, I'll give you this though Yorkshire has much more sheep s4it and wimberries.

God's own County Yorkshire,but Lancashire isn't bad.

[fighting irish]

On 06/06/2023 at 10:23, Harry Stottle said:

Even that shopping centre, is Mile's behind the Trafford Centre this side of the pennines, I'll give you this though Yorkshire has much more sheep s4it and wimberries.

Well done 'Arry, that's the best "put down" I've heard this century! Ha ha ha. Talk about being damned with faint praise. Keep up the good work.