Whitehaven

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Who are the 3 struggling Championship clubs in Cumbria? The lack of understanding of anything outside of SL from the pomposity within never ceases to amaze me. If you think this would work, you have clearly never been to or really actually spoken to anybody connected to any of these clubs (not even the third which is in League 1 by the way). 

Not to mention that Cumbria was abolished earlier this season.

[Jughead]

3 hours ago, Expatknight said:

Maybe the answer is for The Championship and League 1 to become 2 conference leagues  split North / South where half way through the season the top half each come together and the bottom half do the same a bit like in soccer. I am sure something similar was talked about a few years ago.

The Championship this year as a competition has been, on the whole, very competitive and there have been some very exciting and close games and results that have not gone the way people predicted or expected.

it is a great shame that some of the clubs appear to be very poorly run. 

A Southern League of…three teams. Sounds good. Might as well take the cattle prod to Broncos now. 

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

A Southern League of…three teams. Sounds good. Might as well take the cattle prod to Broncos now. 

Apart from that, it just leads to more  inequality, with fixtures between the very best teams and the very worst teams producing blow-out scores.

It's poor preparation for a club with genuine and realistic aspirations of promotion.

[Jughead]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

Apart from that, it just leads to more  inequality, with fixtures between the very best teams and the very worst teams producing blow-out scores.

It's poor preparation for a club with genuine and realistic aspirations of promotion.

Well, yeah, that too. It would be barbaric putting Cornwall or London Skolars on a pitch with Featherstone and calling it a level playing field. 

[Griff]

Just now, Jughead said:

Well, yeah, that too. It would be barbaric putting Cornwall or London Skolars on a pitch with Featherstone and calling it a level playing field. 

All such games could be played at Batley.

No changing ends at half time.

[OttO]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Not to mention that Cumbria was abolished earlier this season.

Cumbria was not abolished, Cumbria is still a very much a county....... What happened earlier this year was the district councils were abolished and new councils were set up as Cumberland Council + Westmoreland & Furness Council, as the level bellow Cumbria County Council.

[Griff]

2 minutes ago, OttO said:

Cumbria was not abolished, Cumbria is still a very much a county....... What happened earlier this year was the district councils were abolished and new councils were set up as Cumberland Council + Westmoreland & Furness Council, as the level bellow Cumbria County Council.

OK - but it's not what it says here.

https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/

[LeeF]

6 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Gotta disagree. At the moment you have 3 struggling Championship clubs in Cumbria, 2 of them relatively close to each other. Youngsters in Cumbria will almost always choose to go to a strong SL side given the opportunity (take Morgan Knowles as a good example) in order to progress their careers rather than a struggling local championship club. If they had a local SL team to go then i'm sure a good portion of those youngsters would go there instead.

You say the same fan base - disagree with that as well. At the moment the clubs target their fans from their local towns (Workington, Whitehaven etc.) If there was a single North Cumbria SL franchise then it would appeal to fans across the whole area not just 2 towns. I lived in Penrith for a fair few years and I met quite a few cumbria born lads who were supporters of clubs like Saints & Wigan rather than one of the local Cumbria teams because they wanted to go and watch SL rugby.

So North Cumbria. Based in Carlisle presumably? That hotbed of RL and a fair distance from any of the existing clubs or fan bases. That’ll solve all the issues

[OttO]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

OK - but it's not what it says here.

https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/

The councils have changed but Cumbria is still a county.

[Dave W]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

OK - but it's not what it says here.

https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/

It literally says 'Delivering two new councils for Cumbria' at the top. 

All it means is that 'Cumbria' is now just a ceremonial county with the actual power divided between local authorities. 

A bit like Yorkshire. 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Dave W

[Griff]

21 minutes ago, OttO said:

The councils have changed but Cumbria is still a county.

Not any more.

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, Dave W said:

It literally says 'Delivering two new councils for Cumbria' at the top. 

All it means is that 'Cumbria' is now just a ceremonial county with the actual power divided between local authorities. 

A bit like Yorkshire. 

 

Not really Dave. Yorkshire's been there for a thousand years or so.  Cumbria is a figment of soneone's imagination,  invented less than fifty years ago. Your proper counties are Cumberland, Westmorland and a bit of Lancashire.

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Dave W said:

It literally says 'Delivering two new councils for Cumbria' at the top. 

All it means is that 'Cumbria' is now just a ceremonial county with the actual power divided between local authorities. 

A bit like Yorkshire. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Not any more.

As Dave suggests Cumbria county council was abolished, as were the district councils - all being replaced with unitary authorities (Cumberland and Westmoreland & Furness) which now provide all council services.

So no Cumbria County Council any more, but Cumbria is still the ceremonial and shrieval county and the police and fire authority.

As far as it relates to the situation in Yorkshire - Cumbria is now akin to the situation in any of N Yorks, W Yorks, S Yorks or the E Riding. But Yorkshire as a whole doesn't have any administrative or ceremonial role at present - it is just the traditional/historic county providing a cultural link between the various parts (N, E, S & W).

[Griff]

2 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

 

As Dave suggests Cumbria county council was abolished, as were the district councils - all being replaced with unitary authorities (Cumberland and Westmoreland & Furness) which now provide all council services.

So no Cumbria County Council any more, but Cumbria is still the ceremonial and shrieval county and the police and fire authority.

As far as it relates to the situation in Yorkshire - Cumbria is now akin to the situation in any of N Yorks, W Yorks, S Yorks or the E Riding. But Yorkshire as a whole doesn't have any administrative or ceremonial role at present - it is just the traditional/historic county providing a cultural link between the various parts (N, E, S & W).

It's been debated fully in the past.

What you say doesn't agree with the legislation.

I'm not going to labour the point  you either accept it or you don't. 

[Barley Mow]

36 minutes ago, Griff said:

It's been debated fully in the past.

What you say doesn't agree with the legislation.

I'm not going to labour the point  you either accept it or you don't. 

I agree that the traditional counties for that area are Cumberland, Westmorland and parts of Lancashire (Furness) and Yorkshire (around Sedbergh). Those counties have existed for hundreds of years, have never been abolished and continue to exist - successive governments have confirmed this.

The 1973 Act took away the administrative powers of those counties and created new councils to administer areas also labelled 'counties' - calling these entities 'counties' was a mistake in my view as it has caused a lot of confusion.

Cumbria was one such new county. As I say, I think the naming was a mistake but the Act did specifically create new counties (without abolishing the old ones).

Those new counties were used as police and fire authority areas, council areas and for ceremonial purposes.

The changes in Cumbria this April took away the council, but the ceremonial county and police/fire authority remain.

If only they had chosen to name the areas something else in 1973 there would be a lot less confusion, but nonetheless, Cumbria is (by law) a ceremonial county - covering the traditional counties of Cumberland, Westmorland, etc.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Griff]

Ah! We're getting closer.

I agree that Cumbria is a police force, a fire and rescue service and a fella in an eighteenth century military uniform, who chats with the King when he's nearby.

But is that sonething to be proud of?

 

Worth pointing out, by the way, that many police forces, such as Thames Valley and Devon and Cornwall, are not run by a single county. Which just leaves the fella in the funny hat.

[Barley Mow]

44 minutes ago, Griff said:

Ah! We're getting closer.

I agree that Cumbria is a police force, a fire and rescue service and a fella in an eighteenth century military uniform, who chats with the King when he's nearby.

But is that sonething to be proud of?

 

Worth pointing out, by the way, that many police forces, such as Thames Valley and Devon and Cornwall, are not run by a single county. Which just leaves the fella in the funny hat.

I'll leave it up to each individual to decide if they want to have pride in Cumberland as (Haven's traditional county) or Cumbria (as it's ceremonial county). Alternatively, they can have pride in neither or both.

Personally, as a Yorkshireman I identify a lot more with Yorkshire as a whole (the traditional county) rather than with West Yorkshire for example, which is basically an administrative area without the historic and cultural roots that the traditional county has.

Nonetheless, the 1973 Act did establish Cumbria for certain purposes and labelled it as a county - it was misguided in my view, but definitely a county according to law.

You are absolutely correct that police authorities don't always match up with ceremonial counties - Avon and Somerset & West Mercia being other examples. Likewise, the City of London (as in the square mile) acts as its own ceremonial area. Some areas of course also still retain two tier local government with 'county' and 'district' councils.

There is a lot of inconsistency in England's adminstrative geography.

You say we're getting closer - I don't actually think we disagree a great deal:

- we both accept that the traditional counties were never abolished, they are a sensible unchanging geographic reference, they are important historically and to culture (including sport)

- we both accept that new administrative areas were created in 1973 to fulfill functions previously carried out by the traditional counties.

The only difference I can see is that you don't accept that the 1973 Act also labelled those new areas as counties as well.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Saint Toppy]

14 hours ago, LeeF said:

So North Cumbria. Based in Carlisle presumably? That hotbed of RL and a fair distance from any of the existing clubs or fan bases. That’ll solve all the issues

Who said anything abut Carlisle ?

When all the new developments were taking place around Lillyhall a few years back a joint stadium for Workington & Whitehaven  was mooted back then - ideal location for a new North Cumbria Franchise. Its inbetween the 2 existing clubs with major roads linking both sites as well as direct to the M6. Its on Bus routes linking Haven, Workington, Penrith & Carlisle, the only major transport link it doesn't have is a rail station.

[sentoffagain2]

  Ask your Tory MP who was voted in at the last General Election what she is going to do about it.Supposed to be levelling  up the red wall seats or maybe the PM as 100k in his loose change jar.

[Tubby]

20 hours ago, dkw said:

West cumbria is absolutely not a well off area, unless your living in the Sellafield bubble. It has one of the highest rises in use of food banks in the country, having a few thousand earn much much more than the rest does not mean it is well off at all.

A microcosm of the country.

[Expatknight]

I think the sad truth is that there is far too little money available to the lower divisions to sustain the amount of teams, there isn't a large enough fan base, there is very little if any real investment in these leagues from the RFL. It is a sad fact that there are amateur clubs getting bigger gates than some so called pro clubs, maybe it is time to be brutally honest with ourselves and face the hard facts. There are so many more leisure activities now for people to spend their time and cash on. We have looked at proposing mergers which seems to be a total no go due to the tribal mentality of fans, which I understand, it has worked elsewhere - Australia, but then they look at sport in a totally different way to us. One thing is certain, if something radical isn't done, the game as we know it, will disappear , we could end up being stuck with Super League or whatever it will call itself and an amateur set up below that or a lower league of feeder clubs for Super League clubs, I don't know which would be worse. I can't see IMG sorting the bigger game out, only Super League because, like it or not, that is where the money is. I threw the Conference idea out there as you can't sustain the ridiculous situation of a club like Cornwall having to travel to Workington and vice versa , it is crazy in every way.

[LeeF]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Who said anything abut Carlisle ?

When all the new developments were taking place around Lillyhall a few years back a joint stadium for Workington & Whitehaven  was mooted back then - ideal location for a new North Cumbria Franchise. Its inbetween the 2 existing clubs with major roads linking both sites as well as direct to the M6. Its on Bus routes linking Haven, Workington, Penrith & Carlisle, the only major transport link it doesn't have is a rail station.

You said North Cumbria. The only option is Carlisle. 
 

Lillyhall, Workington & Whitehaven are not North Cumbria. As for direct link to the M6 it would still take an hour which is roughly how long it takes to get to Hull from Huddersfield or from Huddersfield to St Helens

[Saint Toppy]

25 minutes ago, LeeF said:

You said North Cumbria. The only option is Carlisle. 
 

Lillyhall, Workington & Whitehaven are not North Cumbria. As for direct link to the M6 it would still take an hour which is roughly how long it takes to get to Hull from Huddersfield or from Huddersfield to St Helens

Jesus wept - whinging about a definition of whats in North Cumbria and what isn't. Depending on traffic it takes approx 40mins to travel from M6 J40 to Lillyhall, and a journey hardly comparable to sitting on the M62 on a Friday night.

None of this changes the fact anyway that all 3 Cumbria clubs play in old, crumbling stadia, have low crowds, and certainly in the case of Workington & Whitehaven barely have a pot to <<oops I tried to get around the swear filter and failed>> in between them. None of them have any realistic chance of ever getting into SL again (barring a mystery Billionaire buying one of them who's willing to invest a lot of time, effort & money into growing a club with a very limited local market).

There's a choice to be made. Either continue as we are with the clubs slowly rotting away until 1 by one they fall by the wayside (certainly Workey & Haven are the 2 most at risk), or they bite the bullet and say right if we want to continue with some form of Professional RL in this area then whats needed is a stand alone Franchise club, capable of attracting crowds from a wider area of Cumbria, playing in a decent stadium and capable of meting SL club standards. Yes it still needs a group of investors to come together to make this happen, but its more realistic than trying to rescue one of the existing clubs.

Both Workington & Whitehaven only have populations of around 25K and will only ever attract crowds from their locality as stand alone clubs. A single franchise around this area will immediately double the potential fan base as well as appealing to other surrounding towns & cities like Penrith & Carlisle.

I just dont get why people are so opposed to ideas to try and revive the sport in an area with a long history of producing players and very little opposition from other professional sports?

Edited July 13, 2023 by Saint Toppy

[donald]

14 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Jesus wept - whinging about a definition of whats in North Cumbria and what isn't. Depending on traffic it takes approx 40mins to travel from M6 J40 to Lillyhall, and a journey hardly comparable to sitting on the M62 on a Friday night.

None of this changes the fact anyway that all 3 Cumbria clubs play in old, crumbling stadia, have low crowds, and certainly in the case of Workington & Whitehaven barely have a pot to <<oops I tried to get around the swear filter and failed>> in between them. None of them have any realistic chance of ever getting into SL again (barring a mystery Billionaire buying one of them who's willing to invest a lot of time, effort & money into growing a club with a very limited local market).

There's a choice to be made. Either continue as we are with the clubs slowly rotting away until 1 by one they fall by the wayside (certainly Workey & Haven are the 2 most at risk), or they bite the bullet and say right if we want to continue with some form of Professional RL in this area then whats needed is a stand alone Franchise club, capable of attracting crowds from a wider area of Cumbria, playing in a decent stadium and capable of meting SL club standards. Yes it still needs a group of investors to come together to make this happen, but its more realistic than trying to rescue one of the existing clubs.

Both Workington & Whitehaven only have populations of around 25K and will only ever attract crowds from their locality as stand alone clubs. A single franchise around this area will immediately double the potential fan base as well as appealing to other surrounding towns & cities like Penrith & Carlisle.

I just dont get why people are so opposed to ideas to try and revive the sport in an area with a long history of producing players and very little opposition from other professional sports?

Yeah maybe both towns are only 25k each but the surrounding towns and villages take that to well over 100k so there is potential to keep 2 teams going but 1 team would attract initially a good fan base 

[LeeF]

37 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Jesus wept - whinging about a definition of whats in North Cumbria and what isn't. Depending on traffic it takes approx 40mins to travel from M6 J40 to Lillyhall, and a journey hardly comparable to sitting on the M62 on a Friday night.

None of this changes the fact anyway that all 3 Cumbria clubs play in old, crumbling stadia, have low crowds, and certainly in the case of Workington & Whitehaven barely have a pot to <<oops I tried to get around the swear filter and failed>> in between them. None of them have any realistic chance of ever getting into SL again (barring a mystery Billionaire buying one of them who's willing to invest a lot of time, effort & money into growing a club with a very limited local market).

There's a choice to be made. Either continue as we are with the clubs slowly rotting away until 1 by one they fall by the wayside (certainly Workey & Haven are the 2 most at risk), or they bite the bullet and say right if we want to continue with some form of Professional RL in this area then whats needed is a stand alone Franchise club, capable of attracting crowds from a wider area of Cumbria, playing in a decent stadium and capable of meting SL club standards. Yes it still needs a group of investors to come together to make this happen, but its more realistic than trying to rescue one of the existing clubs.

Both Workington & Whitehaven only have populations of around 25K and will only ever attract crowds from their locality as stand alone clubs. A single franchise around this area will immediately double the potential fan base as well as appealing to other surrounding towns & cities like Penrith & Carlisle.

I just dont get why people are so opposed to ideas to try and revive the sport in an area with a long history of producing players and very little opposition from other professional sports?

The usual complete and utter rubbish from someone, as evidenced by the opening paragraph, who knows nothing. North isn’t West by any definition and as for the 40 minutes - good luck with that