League 1 unsustainable?

[JM2010]

How many community/junior clubs are there in the South and are the numbers increasing?

[OriginalMrC]

4 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

A couple of people have now spoken positively about the community game in the South, and its growth potential. The SCL has gone from 14 teams to 8 in just a few years. Those 8 aren't all in good shape. I'm not seeing any kind of plan to arrest the decline never mind build it up.

To be clear, I think the game *can* grow. But it needs a plan. It can't be left to individual clubs (or even just individuals) to find their own way. 

Agreed. The SCL admitted a number of clubs that weren't up to it. The criteria needed to be stricter. Absolutely a plan is needed and I think things are sort of coming together. Merit leagues have allowed a number of new clubs to test the water and longer term clubs who are struggling to to keep going. This feeds upwards to the regional leagues. The key is to strengthen the regional leagues and give clubs a clear pathway if they want to progress beyond that. 

Along with that there needs to be continued growth in the women's game and youth and academy matches in all southern regions. 

[JM2010]

1 minute ago, OriginalMrC said:

Agreed. The SCL admitted a number of clubs that weren't up to it. The criteria needed to be stricter. Absolutely a plan is needed and I think things are sort of coming together. Merit leagues have allowed a number of new clubs to test the water and longer term clubs who are struggling to to keep going. This feeds upwards to the regional leagues. The key is to strengthen the regional leagues and give clubs a clear pathway if they want to progress beyond that. 

Along with that there needs to be continued growth in the women's game and youth and academy matches in all southern regions. 

It all sounds positive stuff. The structure is key which they seem to be working on getting right. Merit Leagues into regional leagues into the SCL. At least that way there is a standard for every club and they don’t have to step up until ready, if at all 

[OriginalMrC]

2 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

How many community/junior clubs are there in the South and are the numbers increasing?

Don't know the numbers across the whole of the south but there are 15-20 in the Midlands. Same for London. I expect in the rest of the south and South Wales there are another 30 or so

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, OriginalMrC said:

Don't know the numbers across the whole of the south but there are 15-20 in the Midlands. Same for London. I expect in the rest of the south and South Wales there are another 30 or so

Is it just the Midlands League or is it split East and West? I think a good structure would be Midland’s Premier with East and West underneath and merit below each of those. Same for London with Premier then regional and merit below. Not enough teams for that yet but hopefully one day 

[del capo]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

A couple of people have now spoken positively about the community game in the South, and its growth potential. The SCL has gone from 14 teams to 8 in just a few years. Those 8 aren't all in good shape. I'm not seeing any kind of plan to arrest the decline never mind build it up.

To be clear, I think the game *can* grow. But it needs a plan. It can't be left to individual clubs (or even just individuals) to find their own way. 

There is a plan.

Check the match centre on rugby league.com and that gives you all the up to date results ,leagues and even defaults for this years competitions in the South.

There is now a Southern Conference Management Group ( article October 22 in the News section ) that is overseen by the Community Board. Item 7 on the March 23 Board Minutes took an update - hence my previous reference to optimism.

The  North East in my view needs to be similarly targeted as a .matter of urgency.

And whilst the problems that League 1 presents need to be addressed primarily by  those clubs themselves once  its present purpose is nailed i'm sure that it could provide a real playing bridge between both arms of our game

[OriginalMrC]

50 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Is it just the Midlands League or is it split East and West? I think a good structure would be Midland’s Premier with East and West underneath and merit below each of those. Same for London with Premier then regional and merit below. Not enough teams for that yet but hopefully one day 

Midlands total. And I think the structure is already similar to that though the Midlands leagues don't have all midlands clubs. Some play in the East Division for example and others play in the Yorkshire mens or NCL

Edited September 8, 2023 by OriginalMrC

[Archie Gordon]

18 minutes ago, del capo said:

There is a plan.

Check the match centre on rugby league.com and that gives you all the up to date results ,leagues and even defaults for this years competitions in the South.

There is now a Southern Conference Management Group ( article October 22 in the News section ) that is overseen by the Community Board. Item 7 on the March 23 Board Minutes took an update - hence my previous reference to optimism.

...

With respect - and I do mean that because I know you're an expert on the community game - but I've lived the results (and defaults) at each of SCL, East, London senior and London junior this year. There is no plan, I'm afraid. The various management groups do all they can to just make it through the season. Extra resources - but I don't think huge ones - would be needed for a plan.

[Cb2]

4 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

My prediction and it's not based on any real facts is that over the next couple of years Skolars will go, Cornwall will go and Midlands Hurricanes will relocate again to a venue further North. North Wales Crusaders will hopefully hang in there as Wales only representative. We'll end up with the only semi pro/pro club in the South of England being the basket case that is Broncos. 

On the plus side I can see a strengthening of the amateur game in the South. It's a area of real potential growth and the RFL should be looking at this whole participation numbers continue to shrink in the North. 

 

 

Midlands already aren’t really Midlands - 75% of their training is in Wakefield. They train once a fortnight in Derby to continue the ‘Midlands’ theme. Cornwall, as far as I’m aware are financially ok - receive a fair bit of help from the RFL as they had them over a barrel re the Ontario/NY license. Skolars demise won’t be in two years - two weeks more likely - that is based on fact. The issue for all of the rest is that League 1 probably won’t exist after next season. 
 

Broncos at least are showing some signs of life!!
 

 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Cb2 said:

Midlands already aren’t really Midlands - 75% of their training is in Wakefield. They train once a fortnight in Derby to continue the ‘Midlands’ theme. Cornwall, as far as I’m aware are financially ok - receive a fair bit of help from the RFL as they had them over a barrel re the Ontario/NY license. Skolars demise won’t be in two years - two weeks more likely - that is based on fact. The issue for all of the rest is that League 1 probably won’t exist after next season. 
 

Broncos at least are showing some signs of life!!

Can you expand on this Cornwall get a fair bit of help from the RFL?

I only ask because it sounds like one of the typical bs accusations we often see on here when it comes to clubs outside the heartlands.

[del capo]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

With respect - and I do mean that because I know you're an expert on the community game - but I've lived the results (and defaults) at each of SCL, East, London senior and London junior this year. There is no plan, I'm afraid. The various management groups do all they can to just make it through the season. Extra resources - but I don't think huge ones - would be needed for a plan.

Appreciate your concerns Archie. It can be tough at club level even up here where people think it's easy - but these days there's no such place. The glass is still half full for me though.

Rugby League Outsiders  is  a more than worthwhile podcast that can be caught on You Tube and covers mostly non traditional UK RL . Largely Midlands based.

Episode 2 introduces Fred Baker the Chair of Telford Raiders. He has  been tasked with being a lead volunteer  on the Southern Development forum  which is  pulling together the Southern Conference  and Regional  'south of the heartlands  ' leagues under its umbrella.  He has vision - watch  and see what you think. The plan may be in parts  early work in progress but it's coming along.

You speak of extra resources that are not huge and I would love for you to spell that out.

The resource I would ask be considered  to help League 1 is that the RFL pay  their travel expenses in full. That would not be much more than the current funding given but would be fairer  to all as each club's different biggest  individual overhead would be met. And they should then  ALL be sustainable........Open on paper, expenses only, if that, in reality. 

Further down the line  ----

 I would then like to see a real debate on promotion  / relegation between Tiers 3 and 4   (  like RU subject to some minimum criteria ), an expansion of League 1 to twelve clubs and provision for travel to be paid for those current League 1 clubs who may in due course  be demoted as well as for those sides who  will have to visit them. That would  definitely be shaking  up the balls in the bag !

Including paying for officials  circa £250k all in., or put another way  about £100k exta to fix the conundrum.

Membership vote at Full Council would rest /transfer with a club's playing Tier. ( lose it going down but get it going up )

I have no real idea yet which side of that debate I would support but of course it would all be  dependent on what the RFL really have plans for  with League 1................

[Phil W]

Well given we've had relegation confirmed at Newcastle Thunder tonight, as I've said before I'm hoping Skolars can pull through and we can have a ten team league next season. 

[Ivarr the Boneless]

I'd suggest London is well behind where it used to be. When Bradford Dudley Hill rocked up at South London Storm and stated they were stunned by how many juniors there were running around. 

There may be a plan but it's too late. I sincerely hope it's not too little as well.

I moved south in 1991. I fear I saw the best of RL down south, both professional and amateur (ish). Crawley Jets were very good if you watched them after all the lads paid loads to play RU swapped codes. Probably the best game I ever saw was Hemel v Crawley when both were good southern "amateur" teams. Steve O'Reilly v Hemel basically, what a match that was.

You simply don't see that down south now. Nor Storm v Dudley Hill. It was Challenge Cup and Souths first match that season. Dudley Hill said they thought Souths would have won had they been in season.

Those were the days.

[Sports Prophet]

12 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Agreed. The SCL admitted a number of clubs that weren't up to it. The criteria needed to be stricter. Absolutely a plan is needed and I think things are sort of coming together. Merit leagues have allowed a number of new clubs to test the water and longer term clubs who are struggling to to keep going. This feeds upwards to the regional leagues. The key is to strengthen the regional leagues and give clubs a clear pathway if they want to progress beyond that. 

 

I think your last part here is much of the problem. I have long held view that amateur club aspirations of climbing the ladder are not productive. There is nothing wrong with realising your place in the sporting pyramid and becoming the beacon of grassroots sport in your area and inspiring other clubs in your region to bring their standards up to yours in turn improving the reputation of grassroots RL in your wider region.

 

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

I'd suggest London is well behind where it used to be. When Bradford Dudley Hill rocked up at South London Storm and stated they were stunned by how many juniors there were running around. 

There may be a plan but it's too late. I sincerely hope it's not too little as well.

I moved south in 1991. I fear I saw the best of RL down south, both professional and amateur (ish). Crawley Jets were very good if you watched them after all the lads paid loads to play RU swapped codes. Probably the best game I ever saw was Hemel v Crawley when both were good southern "amateur" teams. Steve O'Reilly v Hemel basically, what a match that was.

You simply don't see that down south now. Nor Storm v Dudley Hill. It was Challenge Cup and Souths first match that season. Dudley Hill said they thought Souths would have won had they been in season.

Those were the days.

The guy who took Sth London Storm to the next level ended up being GM of Quins RL.

The Storm were the senior outfit which had their own academy overseeing the Brixton Bulls, Croydon Hurricanes, Wandsworth Whirlwinds, Thornton Heath Tornadoes and Addington Lightning. 

All were under the massive financial supplement of sport awards and other charity funding streams, but as funding ran dry, so did the programme.

The best I saw was a minis Saturday morning with about 200 kids, followed by juniors from 12s to 18s before seconds and firsts in the afternoon.

I spoke in another thread about the hey day as I knew it for RLC, but the hey day for London RL was 2007 - 12 until sport England funding and all the other streams ran dry. London and the SE region had the second largest number of registered juniors in the country. It was all predominantly managed by paid staff. The funding just didn’t last long enough for the foundations to settle.

A great RL era though. 

[Cb2]

On 08/09/2023 at 19:08, Damien said:

Can you expand on this Cornwall get a fair bit of help from the RFL?

I only ask because it sounds like one of the typical bs accusations we often see on here when it comes to clubs outside the heartlands.

‘Help’ may have been the wrong choice of wording. From the people I have spoken too, who would know, Cornwall had the RFL over a Barrel with regard to the League 1 license they took on which was due to be for Ontario or NY pre pandemic. I’ll let others surmise what that could mean. 

[Cb2]

On 08/09/2023 at 22:51, Phil W said:

Well given we've had relegation confirmed at Newcastle Thunder tonight, as I've said before I'm hoping Skolars can pull through and we can have a ten team league next season. 

I hope they pull through but at this point I think it’s highly unlikely. Going to need significant investment or crowd funding and/or a new owner to appear in the next month. 

[ATLANTISMAN]

On 09/09/2023 at 09:14, Sports Prophet said:

The guy who took Sth London Storm to the next level ended up being GM of Quins RL.

The Storm were the senior outfit which had their own academy overseeing the Brixton Bulls, Croydon Hurricanes, Wandsworth Whirlwinds, Thornton Heath Tornadoes and Addington Lightning. 

All were under the massive financial supplement of sport awards and other charity funding streams, but as funding ran dry, so did the programme.

The best I saw was a minis Saturday morning with about 200 kids, followed by juniors from 12s to 18s before seconds and firsts in the afternoon.

I spoke in another thread about the hey day as I knew it for RLC, but the hey day for London RL was 2007 - 12 until sport England funding and all the other streams ran dry. London and the SE region had the second largest number of registered juniors in the country. It was all predominantly managed by paid staff. The funding just didn’t last long enough for the foundations to settle.

A great RL era though. 

The one legacy of the Richard Lewis era was the sport England funding it made up for the many other mistakes including screwing up the TV contract (Later rescued by Nigel Wood  who did a brilliant deal) 

Credit where credit is due.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by ATLANTISMAN

[welshmagpie]

1 hour ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

The one legacy of the Richard Lewis era was the sport England funding it made up for the many other mistakes including screwing up the TV contract (Later rescued by Nigel Wood  who did a brilliant deal) 

Credit where credit is due.

 

Nigel Wood… brilliant…

Who’d have thunk it! 

(not disagreeing with you by the way, just a hug turn up for Nige’s otherwise unsteady reputation)

[ATLANTISMAN]

18 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

Nigel Wood… brilliant…

Who’d have thunk it! 

(not disagreeing with you by the way, just a hug turn up for Nige’s otherwise unsteady reputation)

Well at least he was not the author of a letter to the head of SKY SPORTS which read in one paragraph

DONT give them anymore money they won't know what to do with it :((((

I will leave it to you to work out who sent it 

 

P 

[Derwent Parker]

On 08/09/2023 at 22:51, Phil W said:

Well given we've had relegation confirmed at Newcastle Thunder tonight, as I've said before I'm hoping Skolars can pull through and we can have a ten team league next season. 

and If they added loops then it could be a good league 18 games is U/S

[watcherofRL]

On 08/09/2023 at 16:52, Archie Gordon said:

With respect - and I do mean that because I know you're an expert on the community game - but I've lived the results (and defaults) at each of SCL, East, London senior and London junior this year. There is no plan, I'm afraid. The various management groups do all they can to just make it through the season. Extra resources - but I don't think huge ones - would be needed for a plan.

Totally agree with you here, I’ve watched a decline from Juniors upwards, comes down to lack of volunteers, lack of support or initiative from RFL and the same self interest from clubs that is seen all the way to the top!