Club v Country. Time for realism? (Merged Threads)

[JohnM]

Triggered by something someone raised on another thread (Las Vegas?) about the sports fans apparent preference for club games over internationals. How we've tried over the years here in the UK with Internationals: identities, opponents, venues, crowds,  times, media coverage, er...er... winning....not winning. 

Should we continue to pour good money after bad down the drain of nation- based internationals and follow , even join in with, the NRL and it's Las Vegas initiative?  Play the WCC there, play the opening SL rounds there, etc.

Of course, I expect this to be rejected out of hand, but at least forensically examine it.

[Damien]

Internationals definitely have a big place in our sport. I absolutely love the international game and it is the one part of the sport that I always look forward to no matter what. The game though needs to treat them as big events and not as cheap, token efforts at bog standard SL grounds. Moving away from these grounds to bigger football grounds is how the international game elevated itself in the 1980s and 90s. Neutrals will never think of these games as big events when the sport itself doesn't treat them as such.

I absolutely think the WCC is made for a real push to make it a big event in Las Vegas or anywhere else. The event has so much potential, as we have seen the odd time such as the Wigan game in Brisbane and Leeds at Elland Road. We really need buy in from the NRL though to make this work as it should and take it to the next level. The NRL are fantastic at putting on a show when they want to be and if they put their might behind it, as they are doing with the Las Vegas double header, it could be huge.

We should be doing both of these things much better and one certainly should not be at the expense of the other. They both have a place in tge calendar.

[Dave T]

42 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Triggered by something someone raised on another thread (Las Vegas?) about the sports fans apparent preference for club games over internationals. How we've tried over the years here in the UK with Internationals: identities, opponents, venues, crowds,  times, media coverage, er...er... winning....not winning. 

Should we continue to pour good money after bad down the drain of nation- based internationals and follow , even join in with, the NRL and it's Las Vegas initiative?  Play the WCC there, play the opening SL rounds there, etc.

Of course, I expect this to be rejected out of hand, but at least forensically examine it.

I don't think it needs to be either/or. 

In an ideal world the 1997 WC would have been a tournament we learnt from instead of running away from it. 26 years later we should have a decent international club tournament. 

It would be a good idea to try and join uo on things like this. I think there was so thing in the expanded WCS we did a few years ago, where we had 3 games, and something in Wigan and Hull going over to Oz at the start of the year. 

I do wonder whether we could monetise the Aussie pre-season games by our clubs travelling over. Pre-season seems to be quite big business nowadays in Oz. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

We could probably do with establishing a level of parity between the very best Super League teams and the NRL if we’re talking about expanding the World Club Challenge concept.

Put bluntly, we need to keep winning and competing to keep the Australian market interested.

The UK has some reputation to restore.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We could probably do with establishing a level of parity between the very best Super League teams and the NRL if we’re talking about expanding the World Club Challenge concept.

Put bluntly, we need to keep winning and competing to keep the Australian market interested.

The UK has some reputation to restore.

Agreed, and that's why we need to grow steadily. Whilst the NRL has had the upper hand for a while, we have still had a decent level of success, even when we extended the format slightly. 

But we also shouldn't necessarily overstate the impact of beating them - they still weren't interested really when we had the upper hand. 

[Damien]

Funnily enough:

 

 

[Eddie]

12 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We could probably do with establishing a level of parity between the very best Super League teams and the NRL if we’re talking about expanding the World Club Challenge concept.

Put bluntly, we need to keep winning and competing to keep the Australian market interested.

The UK has some reputation to restore.

Yes we really need Wigan to beat or be close to beating Penrith in the spring. 

[Colin James]

Internationals is the only way we can grow our game. Even if by some miracle we had 12 A grade SL clubs doing great things I don't think we break out of our little bubble without England playing regular top class meaningful international fixtures.

Sports like cricket and rugby union (though now admittedly in a bad spot at club level) have been built and funded on international competition. An Ashes test match at Old Trafford brings in more money than Lancs make in a decade of county championship games.

Generally speaking people from a town will support that team, there's a natural limit to how big clubs can get. Internationals have a potential audience of the whole country.

The reason internationals haven't been successful is poor planning meaning no consistency to the calendar and a lack of fixtures against top nations. If we are serious about growing interest we can't rely on a three match test series at the end of the season. It's nowhere near enough.

We need to play NZ/Australia every year in a series. And in years without a World Cup we need a second series against Samoa/Tonga or a 4 Nations type tournament. And we need to play France/Wales every year. These things need to happen at the same time every year so that attendance/viewership becomes a regular thing like RU have with the Six Nations and Autumn internationals. 

If the only way to make it happen is have internationals played on the same weekends as club fixtures (but not at the same KO time) then that's what we need to do.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, Colin James said:

We need to play NZ/Australia every year in a series. And in years without a World Cup we need a second series against Samoa/Tonga or a 4 Nations type tournament. And we need to play France/Wales every year. These things need to happen at the same time every year so that attendance/viewership becomes a regular thing like RU have with the Six Nations and Autumn internationals. 

If the only way to make it happen is have internationals played on the same weekends as club fixtures (but not at the same KO time) then that's what we need to do.

Unfortunately these decisions aren't up to us - the NRL calls the shots. Whilst we desperately need an extensive international calendar to raise the game's profile in the UK/Europe, the Aussies don't need it - they're already big dogs in their sporting market. So our option is to develop some sort of northern hemisphere international calendar. But that's going to be extremely challenging.

[GUBRATS]

It's 4 nation's we need , every year there isn't a WC 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Internationals definitely have a big place in our sport. I absolutely love the international game and it is the one part of the sport that I always look forward to no matter what. The game though needs to treat them as big events and not as cheap, token efforts at bog standard SL grounds. Moving away from these grounds to bigger football grounds is how the international game elevated itself in the 1980s and 90s. Neutrals will never think of these games as big events when the sport itself doesn't treat them as such.

I absolutely think the WCC is made for a real push to make it a big event in Las Vegas or anywhere else. The event has so much potential, as we have seen the odd time such as the Wigan game in Brisbane and Leeds at Elland Road. We really need buy in from the NRL though to make this work as it should and take it to the next level. The NRL are fantastic at putting on a show when they want to be and if they put their might behind it, as they are doing with the Las Vegas double header, it could be huge.

We should be doing both of these things much better and one certainly should not be at the expense of the other. They both have a place in tge calendar.

The WCC really should be the Vegas game. You can still have the two games. WCC plus the Challenge Cup winners v NRL minor premiers or runner up if it is the same team. Imagine that. Derek would have got a trip to Vegas.

[pahars]

4 hours ago, JohnM said:

Triggered by something someone raised on another thread (Las Vegas?) about the sports fans apparent preference for club games over internationals. How we've tried over the years here in the UK with Internationals: identities, opponents, venues, crowds,  times, media coverage, er...er... winning....not winning. 

Should we continue to pour good money after bad down the drain of nation- based internationals and follow , even join in with, the NRL and it's Las Vegas initiative?  Play the WCC there, play the opening SL rounds there, etc.

Of course, I expect this to be rejected out of hand, but at least forensically examine it.

It’s an interesting question John. It could be down to who the question is delivered to. In terms of growing the game outside of the heartlands then internationals are the only way. 
 

I’ve been vaguely aware of the dark side over the weekend, cricketers lost to Afghanistan - but still it’s quite a good story. And a few weeks ago I actually watched a netball match because England were in the final. 
 

In terms of NRL in Vegas it’s their party and they will invite who they like and that ain’t us. 

[JohnM]

Certainly in the pyramid of media attention (and with my wish to see us finally be competitive with, and successful over, Australia) , Internationals are at the apex of sporting endeavour.

We were getting pretty close back in the early 1990s, I recall, and came close to filling stadiums such as Wembley. This at a time when the timing of our season allowed our top players to take short term contracts with Aussie clubs and play out that experience in club games as well as GB v AU's games.  Now that our seasons coincide, that does not happen. Yes, we have players such as Farnworth etc to call on, but they are only here for a couple of International  games a season and don't play club games where they might transfer some of their Aussie  playing experience to their teammates. Others whose NRL experience we might benefit from only play in Aus for a season before returning, and then not always performing here quite as well as they did in the NRL( Bateman as a recent example)

Then look at attendances here. Some fans bemoan the low turnout for International games. Others lament the lack of success. Yet more don't see England team manager as a full-time position. I in particular cannot see how we'll ever be successful when our England team only play together a couple of times a year. Surely, given we are in catch-up mode,  we should be playing together as a national team many more times a year.

Someone once said (probably NOT A. Einstein, who never even watched England play) " If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got."  I feel that characterises our approach to Internationals. 

Hence my interest just 3 games short of the end of our season in a radical change to our approach.

Edited October 17, 2023 by JohnM

[NRLandSL]

The WCC in Las Vegas sounds mouth-watering. I think that with the state of international rugby league, it is totally warranted to push it to the side. I rarely find myself enjoying an international game as much as a club game, often the games are unimportant, blowouts, and also feel pretty silly when there is a team of solely Australians representing another nation. Of course, I would love nothing more than for the international game to be strong, enjoyable, and sustainable, it's all I've ever wanted but I just don't think it's anywhere near as good a product as the club game, and it defenitly won't reach its potential under the current downright evil and stupid IRL board.

Edited October 17, 2023 by NRLandSL

[NRLandSL]

10 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We could probably do with establishing a level of parity between the very best Super League teams and the NRL if we’re talking about expanding the World Club Challenge concept.

Put bluntly, we need to keep winning and competing to keep the Australian market interested.

The UK has some reputation to restore.

As an Aussie, the NRL is defenitly a stronger league all-round, as it has been turned into an American-style sports league where all teams are equal, Whilst the SL is obviously a traditional British-style league in which the top teams are very steady and bigger than the smaller clubs. In the NRL there is pretty much no disparity between the top teams and the bottom teams, one year a team could finish last and the next season they could easily win the premiership, whilst in SL only 3 teams (currently in SL) have won it since 1985. What I'm saying is though teams like Wakefield would probably lose pretty easily to the bottom NRL teams (Tigers, Bulldogs, Dragons), The SL's Top teams (Wigan and St Helens in particular) are very much capable of beating the best NRL teams.

But I agree Super League teams do need to take chances when they play NRL sides. As an Aussie, I am the only person I know who watches super league, practically no one watches it over here probably because they all are cocky that "the NRL is 100% better and that the SL is worse than the NSW Cup"(says someone who's never watched a game of SL in there life). But stuff like St Helens beating Penrith definitely helps its reputation, and as the NRL is the league with the money, reputation is very important to entice them if there were ever a proper World tournament established.

[NRLandSL]

Obviously, this international window has only just started, but even as an avid international rugby league fan I'm just not enjoying it, the games aren't competitive, and watching sides made up solely of Heritage players/Australians defeats the purpose of an "International" game. After watching the great NRL and SL finals series I would much rather see a WCC than these internationals. My idea would be for a 6-team competition, Top 3 in NRL and SL, 2 groups of 3, and then semi-finals and a final. It would take place at the start of November and change hosts every year. Also, I don't think it is logical to have the WCC played in pre-season, players are not very prepared and it's usually a pretty different side to the one who played 5 months earlier. This would also give genuine bearing behind the term "World Champion" which is pretty cool. Of course, this is unlikely but a cool prospect to think about, as I think games between the SL and NRL should defenitly take place more.

Of course, I do not want the international game to fade, I am the biggest international rugby league fan and it's great that tests are being played, but every year we try to force the International game to grow with the silly overuse of heritage players and it is obvious it is not going to happen. I would love nothing more than for the international to become a genuine event with domestic player-filled national teams and competitive matches, but the current IRL board is a joke and I can't see it improving with these clowns in charge anytime soon.

Edited October 17, 2023 by NRLandSL

[Sports Prophet]

I find it hard to fathom that in soccer, the European Champions and finalists, may not even be their respective domestic champions.

For that reason, I’m out.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

I find it hard to fathom that in soccer, the European Champions and finalists, may not even be their respective domestic champions.

For that reason, I’m out.

Wait till you find out that the winner of the European championships didn't even make it to the world cup in soccer.

Or that the team who finishes top of the regular season in the NRL isn't the Champion?

[Sports Prophet]

11 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

It's 4 nation's we need , every year there isn't a WC 

Whilst as a serious RL fan, I’m not certain I want to see this.

What I want to see is more big events with a little bit of scarcity to give more credibility to the achievement of winning.

if the big nations only played four or five tests every second year, while the lower nations played more regularly for WC qualifiers, I could be satisfied with that.

This isn’t to argue with you, but to demonstrate what excites one RL fan might actually turn another one off.

[Colin James]

8 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Whilst as a serious RL fan, I’m not certain I want to see this.

What I want to see is more big events with a little bit of scarcity to give more credibility to the achievement of winning.

if the big nations only played four or five tests every second year, while the lower nations played more regularly for WC qualifiers, I could be satisfied with that.

This isn’t to argue with you, but to demonstrate what excites one RL fan might actually turn another one off.

Does the RU Six Nations lack credibility taking place every year? It's a calendar event which sponsors and broadcasters know will happen at the same time with the same format every year. You can start to build relationships with sponsors through that consistency in a way you can't do with infrequent or ad hoc events.

It isn't a coincidence that the biggest game in British RL is the SL Grand Final which takes place in the same venue at the same time every year.

[JDR]

33 minutes ago, Colin James said:

Does the RU Six Nations lack credibility taking place every year? It's a calendar event which sponsors and broadcasters know will happen at the same time with the same format every year. You can start to build relationships with sponsors through that consistency in a way you can't do with infrequent or ad hoc events.

It isn't a coincidence that the biggest game in British RL is the SL Grand Final which takes place in the same venue at the same time every year.

I think that's a good point, the rivalries between the home nations and a full day or weekend at the whole 'event' outweighs the quality of the product on the pitch. I remember walking through Cardiff to see England v Wales in 93 and the atmosphere approaching the old stadium and going in was spine-tingling. The 2 teams were fairly mediocre but I guess the fact they were evenly matched did help. Not that we should copy RU but a regular competition every 1 or 2 years at a similar time of year would attract fans and sponsors I think.

[RP London]

14 hours ago, Colin James said:

Internationals is the only way we can grow our game. Even if by some miracle we had 12 A grade SL clubs doing great things I don't think we break out of our little bubble without England playing regular top class meaningful international fixtures.

Sports like cricket and rugby union (though now admittedly in a bad spot at club level) have been built and funded on international competition. An Ashes test match at Old Trafford brings in more money than Lancs make in a decade of county championship games.

Generally speaking people from a town will support that team, there's a natural limit to how big clubs can get. Internationals have a potential audience of the whole country.

The reason internationals haven't been successful is poor planning meaning no consistency to the calendar and a lack of fixtures against top nations. If we are serious about growing interest we can't rely on a three match test series at the end of the season. It's nowhere near enough.

We need to play NZ/Australia every year in a series. And in years without a World Cup we need a second series against Samoa/Tonga or a 4 Nations type tournament. And we need to play France/Wales every year. These things need to happen at the same time every year so that attendance/viewership becomes a regular thing like RU have with the Six Nations and Autumn internationals. 

If the only way to make it happen is have internationals played on the same weekends as club fixtures (but not at the same KO time) then that's what we need to do.

Its an interesting one when comparing to other sports. Cricket has a major issue in that it has to be played over weekdays where everyone is at work. Look at the Hundered and even the T20 bash thing and the crowds are building. People will take days off to watch test matches but not country championships especially when, outside of maybe Yorkshire, does anyone really care about their county?

While the International game is vitally important IMHO and I love it.. I am not sure the figures back it up fully or the sociological changes.. people seem to now link to clubs like never before, even those from outside of their area.. one does lead to another in terms of increased coverage leading to this too and therefore leading to increased coverage. But the clubs are better at marketing themselves now in all sports. We are more used to American Sports being on the market too where its all about the clubs/franchises and not about international teams.. 

I could see us going in a similar way with the club game overpowering the international just becuase we dont have the large spread of international teams but we do have 2 (well 1 1/2) strong leagues.. and I'm not sure it would be a bad thing.. 

[Sports Prophet]

40 minutes ago, Colin James said:

Does the RU Six Nations lack credibility taking place every year? It's a calendar event which sponsors and broadcasters know will happen at the same time with the same format every year. You can start to build relationships with sponsors through that consistency in a way you can't do with infrequent or ad hoc events.

It isn't a coincidence that the biggest game in British RL is the SL Grand Final which takes place in the same venue at the same time every year.

If you want to compare a RL Four Nations to the RU Six Nations then go ahead, but as an event, the two are poles apart.

Personally, I don’t think there is the interest, exposure, rivalry or depth in international RL to establish an annual Four/Five/Six Nations which will be credible to all the RL public, let alone the wider sporting public. One day I expect, but not now. 

As to the SL GF, I think the fact that the match decides the annual champions might have a little to do with the popularity of the game. More so than it being played at Old Trafford every year in October.

[Colin James]

4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

If you want to compare a RL Four Nations to the RU Six Nations then go ahead, but as an event, the two are poles apart.

Personally, I don’t think there is the interest, exposure, rivalry or depth in international RL to establish an annual Four/Five/Six Nations which will be credible to all the RL public, let alone the wider sporting public. One day I expect, but not now. 

As to the SL GF, I think the fact that the match decides the annual champions might have a little to do with the popularity of the game. More so than it being played at Old Trafford every year in October.

That interest/exposure/rivalry/depth won't magically appear 'one day'. It needs to be built through consistency. People love a story and those are built over time. Maybe it is one sided but there's a massive punch up, next time those two face off there's something to build a narrative around. You can't get that by not playing and crossing your fingers that one day Wales, France and somewhere else will suddenly be worthy opponents. If we have to start small in small stadiums then sobeit. I'm not expecting us pulling Six Nations level crowds and coverage from day one. If we can have that and a series against NZ/Australia in non- World Cup years that has to be better the current situation.

The SL Grand Final has overtaken the Challenge Cup final which has suffered from moving in the calendar and moving venue. 20 years ago the Challenge Cup was the big event but has been shunted around the fixture list and venues to the point that for a lot of people it ceased to be a habit to attend.

[Sports Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Colin James said:

That interest/exposure/rivalry/depth won't magically appear 'one day'. It needs to be built through consistency. People love a story and those are built over time. Maybe it is one sided but there's a massive punch up, next time those two face off there's something to build a narrative around. You can't get that by not playing and crossing your fingers that one day Wales, France and somewhere else will suddenly be worthy opponents. If we have to start small in small stadiums then sobeit. I'm not expecting us pulling Six Nations level crowds and coverage from day one. If we can have that and a series against NZ/Australia in non- World Cup years that has to be better the current situation.

The SL Grand Final has overtaken the Challenge Cup final which has suffered from moving in the calendar and moving venue. 20 years ago the Challenge Cup was the big event but has been shunted around the fixture list and venues to the point that for a lot of people it ceased to be a habit to attend.

My theory on the dwindling credibility, relevance or whatever you want to call it, of the Challenge Cup over the last 20 years is that it has far less to do with the change of dates than it does with either the shrinking public exposure of the sport (for various reasons) and the establishment of a Grand Final as the season’s culmination, pitting the best two clubs against each other to determine the annual club champions.