Odsal - RFL Selling the lease

[Tommygilf]

9 hours ago, Tubby said:

My experience absolutely doesn't compare with yours, but the four premises I have leased for my business, upkeep of the building has been the responsibility of the landlord.  Dilapidation coming in when I've made alterations to the interior.

I worked as a commercial property lawyer for 18 months or so, covering all sorts of leases, sales and tenancies.

In essence its down to the individual case and circumstances. A landlord with say multiple units on an industrial estate might have repeat clauses for each lease that states they will deal with xyz but it is the tenant who is responsible for abc. Equally they might relinquish any responsibility, or take priority over everything building maintenance wise. An interesting example of the latter is the PFI buildings of NHS Hospitals, Schools and Police stations for example.

FWIW, the RFL are also technically tenants here too as they own a long leasehold for Odsal, not the freehold. I'm not sure what the terms of that leasehold is, (it only has to be over 7 years to be formalised with land registry but could be a 999 year lease, for example), but I would assume that even that comes with some terms regarding maintainance (even just that if there is no sub tenant(s) taking it on then it falls to the Leaseholder to do so themselves).

Of course its entirely possible that the lawyers who wrote the lease for the Bulls didn't include the maintainance, either by instruction or ignorance.

[RBKnight]

45 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

FWIW, the RFL are also technically tenants here too as they own a long leasehold for Odsal, not the freehold. I'm not sure what the terms of that leasehold is, (it only has to be over 7 years to be formalised with land registry but could be a 999 year lease, for example), but I would assume that even that comes with some terms regarding maintainance (even just that if there is no sub tenant(s) taking it on then it falls to the Leaseholder to do so themselves).

IIRC, at the time of the Bulls vacating Odsal to play at Dewsbury, it was stated that the long lease from the freeholder (Bradford Council) was dependent on rugby being played at Odsal. If it wasn't, then the lease would be surrendered back to the council.

If true, that would give the Bulls some security of occupancy.

[paul hicks]

22 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

By looking for a buyer, I wonder if these plans form part of the sale to find a buyer willing to follow through on council support.

https://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/article/1660/bradford-council-unveil-odsal-plans

no. the bulls were crossing their fingers for some of the gravy from the leveling up money that councils had to bid for from the government.  of course, in the end the government did not give them anything as it's not a potential tory area

[paul hicks]

14 hours ago, Rovers13 said:

No of course not buy it over time in instalments. 

that would be in the form of a Morgage i take it.  truth is no bank or financial institution would trust them with the credit history of the club

[RigbyLuger]

48 minutes ago, paul hicks said:

no. the bulls were crossing their fingers for some of the gravy from the leveling up money that councils had to bid for from the government.  of course, in the end the government did not give them anything as it's not a potential tory area

Didn't stop some journalists running stories thinking it was nailed on to happen, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[OdsalBull]

12 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that premise. Still, the question NOW is whether the Bulls supporters - who were completely unaware of what went on back in 2013 - should be punished forevermore because of the sins of those who owned the club back THEN.

I realise there are plenty on this forum who would enjoy seeing the Bulls wallow in misery from now to the end of time.

 

Boils down to jealousy. Because the club were successful others want to see it fail as they will never see their clubs reach them heights (See only 4 clubs winning the grand final) if we were rubbish nobody would care I am sure. 

[Tubby]

10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I worked as a commercial property lawyer for 18 months or so, covering all sorts of leases, sales and tenancies.

In essence its down to the individual case and circumstances. A landlord with say multiple units on an industrial estate might have repeat clauses for each lease that states they will deal with xyz but it is the tenant who is responsible for abc. Equally they might relinquish any responsibility, or take priority over everything building maintenance wise. An interesting example of the latter is the PFI buildings of NHS Hospitals, Schools and Police stations for example.

FWIW, the RFL are also technically tenants here too as they own a long leasehold for Odsal, not the freehold. I'm not sure what the terms of that leasehold is, (it only has to be over 7 years to be formalised with land registry but could be a 999 year lease, for example), but I would assume that even that comes with some terms regarding maintainance (even just that if there is no sub tenant(s) taking it on then it falls to the Leaseholder to do so themselves).

Of course its entirely possible that the lawyers who wrote the lease for the Bulls didn't include the maintainance, either by instruction or ignorance.

Thanks.  So, in essence, who knows?!

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Tubby said:

Thanks.  So, in essence, who knows?!

Yeah it sounds like a cluster!

[paul hicks]

9 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

Didn't stop some journalists running stories thinking it was nailed on to happen, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

that's what they do for a living. since when did they let the truth interfere with a story

[Wolford6]

Despite my early misgivings, the Nigel Wood regime has improved the team tremendously on the field. Unfortunately, the field itself has been sacrificed to give the Stock Cars a wide track. We need to quit Odsal unless the pitch is raised by at least three metres to acommodate  a proper track and a proper pitch.

That would involve considerable civil engineering works on the terraces and stand. Nonetheless, that would be cheaper than building a new stadium.

The city is due to be given a new railway station, an exercise that will generate a large volume of surplus excavations that could be processed and used to raise the pitch. It would also save the Government a significant sum in landfill costs. Upgrading the stadium would be politically beneficial for whichever party is in power.

It's only a lease being sold; ownership resides with our useless council. I'm not bothered if we do get kicked out of Odsal if we have to play on the current pitch. I'm hoping that someone cleverer than the dunderheads who lead the Council will put a scheme together to link the projects.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Wolford6

[super major]

7 hours ago, OdsalBull said:

Boils down to jealousy. Because the club were successful others want to see it fail as they will never see their clubs reach them heights (See only 4 clubs winning the grand final) if we were rubbish nobody would care I am sure. 

I don't agree, many fans have a lot of sympathy for the speccies but maybe not the people who ran the club into the ground

[OdsalBull]

6 minutes ago, super major said:

I don't agree, many fans have a lot of sympathy for the speccies but maybe not the people who ran the club into the ground

Fair enough. It does not feel that way at times which is fair enough by the way. I loved Leeds’ 111-0 fortnight 

[Blind side johnny]

On 17/10/2023 at 19:32, RBKnight said:

As I understand it, the RFL got the lease so they had some security against the huge unsecured debt owed to the RFL by the Bulls. 

A complete collapse into bankruptcy would have put the game's governing body into jeopardy.

Seems a shame that the Bulls, whilst paying a peppercorn rent during their locust years, didn't do anything about the state of Odsal.

Correct. Hence Bulls actually got very little cash from the deal but patched up a large hole in their balance sheet.

[Chrispmartha]

22 minutes ago, OdsalBull said:

Fair enough. It does not feel that way at times which is fair enough by the way. I loved Leeds’ 111-0 fortnight 

It’s fine we consoled ourselves with the £10m plus sponsorship deal we announced a few weeks after

On a serious note I don’t know any Leeds fan who is pleased about the Bulls misfortune, Id say most of us would like Bradford back as a serious rival playing in a decent ground 

[RigbyLuger]

21 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

It’s fine we consoled ourselves with the £10m plus sponsorship deal we announced a few weeks after

On a serious note I don’t know any Leeds fan who is pleased about the Bulls misfortune, Id say most of us would like Bradford back as a serious rival playing in a decent ground 

The problem is, that Bradford that people want back, doesn't exist and was built on sand.

[paul hicks]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

It’s fine we consoled ourselves with the £10m plus sponsorship deal we announced a few weeks after

On a serious note I don’t know any Leeds fan who is pleased about the Bulls misfortune, Id say most of us would like Bradford back as a serious rival playing in a decent ground 

truth is most leeds supporters never even bother to discuss Bradford these days. it's a bit like when hunslet disappeared it was just another rival from a few years back.  that's the past for you i suppose. 

Bradford was just another in the list of rivals that changed from time to time depending on how they were playing and if they had much support.  since the fall of hunslet in the late 1960s it's just been a matter of who is the new rival that's playing well. there is no real derby rival of long tradition.

 

[JonM]

On 17/10/2023 at 19:18, crashmon said:

I'd be shocked if they get any offers....

Why? Obviously we don't know the terms of the RFL's lease with Bradford council, or the terms agreed with the Bulls and the car racing, but a commercial property with rental income of £120K per year is something that normally would be valued in the millions. The complication here may be that you lose the lease if RL stops being played at the stadium - something which potentially gives your tenants a lot of bargaining power.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

Why? Obviously we don't know the terms of the RFL's lease with Bradford council, or the terms agreed with the Bulls and the car racing, but a commercial property with rental income of £120K per year is something that normally would be valued in the millions. The complication here may be that you lose the lease if RL stops being played at the stadium - something which potentially gives your tenants a lot of bargaining power. 

More likely to put off potential buyers of the lease...and it doesn't appear to have worked too well with the current owners

[The Masked Poster]

18 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

The problem is, that Bradford that people want back, doesn't exist and was built on sand.

That Bradford didn't exist in 1993....but they made it happen. You're correct it was built on shaky foundations but had they had a rich benefactor, who knows? 

Would Wakefield fans have rather spent the last 25 years in the doldrums or would they rather had an exciting ride? They are now both in the same division but Wakefield fans don't even have any good memories to cling to. 

[The Masked Poster]

17 hours ago, paul hicks said:

truth is most leeds supporters never even bother to discuss Bradford these days. it's a bit like when hunslet disappeared it was just another rival from a few years back.  that's the past for you i suppose. 

Bradford was just another in the list of rivals that changed from time to time depending on how they were playing and if they had much support.  since the fall of hunslet in the late 1960s it's just been a matter of who is the new rival that's playing well. there is no real derby rival of long tradition.

 

And yet only one of those rivals resulted in several,regular, 20K plus gates and several finals in front of full stadia. You might not care about their passing - but I bet your clubs owners and the RFL do. 

[dboy]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

That Bradford didn't exist in 1993....but they made it happen. You're correct it was built on shaky foundations but had they had a rich benefactor, who knows? 

Would Wakefield fans have rather spent the last 25 years in the doldrums or would they rather had an exciting ride? They are now both in the same division but Wakefield fans don't even have any good memories to cling to. 

I'd have liked some success, but I'm quite comfortable with the fact that we haven't gone bust 4 times in a decade, thanks.

We've had our moments and I don't follow Wakey for the glory!

It's quite telling of course, that now Bulls are where they are, all the "fans" have disappeared.

The small core of Wakey fans have followed through thick and thin.

Bulls - not worth the paper their IOUs are written on.

[Sports Prophet]

13 minutes ago, dboy said:

I'd have liked some success, but I'm quite comfortable with the fact that we haven't gone bust 4 times in a decade, thanks.

We've had our moments and I don't follow Wakey for the glory!

It's quite telling of course, that now Bulls are where they are, all the "fans" have disappeared.

The small core of Wakey fans have followed through thick and thin.

Bulls - not worth the paper their IOUs are written on.

Dunno @dboy, I reckon 10yrs in Champ and Wakie will be about as big as Keighley, with less supporters.

[The Masked Poster]

14 minutes ago, dboy said:

I'd have liked some success, but I'm quite comfortable with the fact that we haven't gone bust 4 times in a decade, thanks.

We've had our moments and I don't follow Wakey for the glory!

It's quite telling of course, that now Bulls are where they are, all the "fans" have disappeared.

The small core of Wakey fans have followed through thick and thin.

Bulls - not worth the paper their IOUs are written on.

Wakefield are hardly a shining example of financial excellence, they've been a hairs width away from going bust -  several times. As for Bradford, I think they got relegated 10 years ago and still have not too uncomparable attendances with Wakefield and one or two other stragglers. Let's see what crowds Wakey get after a few seasons in the lower leagues? Then maybe try to gloat about how dedicated your fans are. 

Good for you if you accept perpetual struggling (we don't want newcomers enjoying themselves eh?) but many people want to see a bit of success and (forgive them) fun occasionally. 

[dboy]

10 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Dunno @dboy, I reckon 10yrs in Champ and Wakie will be about as big as Keighley, with less supporters.

But we won't be bust.

I also think you are underestimating the new owner.

[The Masked Poster]

22 hours ago, super major said:

I don't agree, many fans have a lot of sympathy for the speccies but maybe not the people who ran the club into the ground

Do you reckon? I think many posters on here would give a whoop of joy if Bradford ceased to exist, I genuinely believe that. Some seem to have a pathological hatred and it seems to be based on the fact that they had a decent period of success.