England vs Samoa Series

[JonM]

44 minutes ago, Phil W said:

If what we have to do as England Is starting somewhere with a European Championships and build it then so be it. But waiting and waiting can't go on.

Realistically though, that is a multi-decade project. France has around 70-80 amateur clubs, they are not going to be competitive with England unless something pretty dramatic happens. Below that you're on to the likes of Wales, Serbia, Greece, Czechia with maybe 8-10 amateur clubs. 

[Phil W]

6 minutes ago, JonM said:

Realistically though, that is a multi-decade project. France has around 70-80 amateur clubs, they are not going to be competitive with England unless something pretty dramatic happens. Below that you're on to the likes of Wales, Serbia, Greece, Czechia with maybe 8-10 amateur clubs. 

Completely get that but we have to start somewhere. A European Championships Nations League would give promotion and relegation and guarantee matches. Yes England would dominate for a while but it's frustrating to see the can being kicked down the road. 

Netherlands, Serbia, Greece and Malta to name some are doing more at the moment. If that's our foundation, let's be patient and build it! 

[N2022]

17 minutes ago, Phil W said:

My frustration is we're waiting on others but this goes from year to year and the wait continues.

If what we have to do as England Is starting somewhere with a European Championships and build it then so be it. But waiting and waiting can't go on.

I agree waiting is not great. Nothing against Euros but I also don't see them as a solution to England's problem (inability to beat Aus) or RL's problem (lacking the public exposure that other parts get from established elite international competitions). Maybe put our u23 in against other Euro nations, but the best 13 we have should be playing NZ, Samoa, Tonga regularly if Aus don't want fixtures. Trouble is they are so much in NRL orbit / sphere of influence I don't see that happening. 

[THE RED ROOSTER]

2 hours ago, M j M said:

Whilst the current state of the international calendar isn't great there's no need to repeat union propaganda on here. The Roosters forced the union types to pay well over the odds but they were desperate to avoid another loss to the NRL so paid up. What the stated reasons were in their press releases are as useful as Martin Gleeson saying how pleased he was to leave St Helens for Warrington back in the day.

Actually it was an Interview with the kid himself and the point being made was if you have a choice, the existence of a credible profile international programme is an incentive for any player.

 

 

[M j M]

1 minute ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Actually it was an Interview with the kid himself and the point being made was if you have a choice, the existence of a credible profile international programme is an incentive for any player.

 

 

Yeah he's going to say that though isn't he

[Sports Prophet]

10 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I follow a lot of sports. Far too many. It is only rugby league where Covid appears to have ended the international programme. Even baseball, which could have ditched its World Baseball Classic, gave it a couple of years and put it back in the schedule.

Post Covid we have seen a Men’s and Women’s RLWC in 2022 and in 2023 we had two men’s Pacific Tri-nations tournaments, women’s test matches and an England v France test as well. I don't think this constitutes “Covid appears to have ended the international programme” does it?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Post Covid we have seen a Men’s and Women’s RLWC in 2022 and in 2023 we had two men’s Pacific Tri-nations tournaments, women’s test matches and an England v France test as well. I don't think this constitutes “Covid appears to have ended the international programme” does it?

And an England Test series. 

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

And an England Test series. 

Better stop people using it as an excuse then.

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Post Covid we have seen a Men’s and Women’s RLWC in 2022 and in 2023 we had two men’s Pacific Tri-nations tournaments, women’s test matches and an England v France test as well. I don't think this constitutes “Covid appears to have ended the international programme” does it?

Yes, I was mimicking the idea that Covid is a valid reason for our current pathetic position.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Better stop people using it as an excuse then.

Covid led to us cancelling an Ashes, Euros (possibly 2), delaying a World Cup and a Kiwi Series. That is the impact Covid had. 

Covid is no longer an excuse for what is going on in 2024.

I thought that simple point was clear. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Yes, I was mimicking the idea that Covid is a valid reason for our current pathetic position.

But nobody was using it as an excuse for teh current position. I used it to explain why we had gone from having tournaments every year to nothibg for 2 years and a delayed WC. 

In fact my post explicitly called out Covid followed by the Aussie coup. 

Edited March 29 by Dave T

[Sports Prophet]

And with all that, I can say, Covid cancellations aside, I think we play near enough international RL a year. Four games a year would be plenty for me.

Personally, I think three match test series are less appealing than they once were. I would rather see some diversity/variety in the end of season match ups.

For what it’s worth, I think England should cut their losses and start negotiating their way into convincing the Pacific Nations to finish 2024 with a Six Nations tournament, rather than bringing Samoa over for what will undoubtedly be another underwhelming series.

Edited March 29 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

And with all that, I can say, Covid cancellations aside, I think we play near enough international RL a year. Four games a year would be plenty for me.

Personally, I think three match test series are less appealing than they once were. I would rather see some diversity/variety in the end of season match ups.

For what it’s worth, I think England should cut their losses and start negotiating their way into convincing the Pacific Nations to finish 2024 with a Six Nations tournament, rather than bringing Samoa over for what will undoubtedly be another underwhelming series.

Yeah, three test series are not for me personally. I loved the 4N and would like to have seen that potentially grow to 6N.

I think the RFL has to shoulder a fair bit of blame here. For years we've had to work with an aggressive partner in the Aussies, yet we've delivered half decent home tournaments that have made it harder for them to sack them off.

We built the Tri/4N off, but then they flatlined at best as we became less ambitious. The last World Cup was horrible. A truly flat tournament with the odd glimmer. And then the Tonga series was lacklustre at best. It's made it easy for the Aussies to sack off the travel and keep their players on their shores. 

 

[gingerjon]

39 minutes ago, Dave T said:

And then the Tonga series was lacklustre at best.

It had to be used as a shop window to entice countries to want to visit and instead it was yet another example of 'will this do' and on the cheap.

We saw the kind of show the NRL expects with the Vegas event. It could never have been as good as that but it could have headed in that direction.

[Gerrumonside ref]

Are we entering an era where an international club competition (the best of the best CL style) is the only way we are going to get elite NRL calibre players regularly on these shores?

Just feels like all those great memories of international rugby league being a focal point are not shared by a younger generation that has more loyalty to club over country.

I’m not saying this is ideal but it might be reality for the moment. 

[sam4731]

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Post Covid we have seen a Men’s and Women’s RLWC in 2022 and in 2023 we had two men’s Pacific Tri-nations tournaments, women’s test matches and an England v France test as well. I don't think this constitutes “Covid appears to have ended the international programme” does it?

I suppose a closer statement would be, the international programme seems to be on a downward trajectory since COVID.

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It had to be used as a shop window to entice countries to want to visit and instead it was yet another example of 'will this do' and on the cheap.

We saw the kind of show the NRL expects with the Vegas event. It could never have been as good as that but it could have headed in that direction.

It certainly was. It was a half hearted disaster from start to finish. When the RFL treats matches as 2nd rate it shouldn't then be shock when RL fans and the general sporting public fo likewise.

It was a prime opportunity to make international RL work for England outside NZ and Australia. As importantly it should have been a way to raise badly needed money for the RFL and Tonga too. The RFL should have been pulling out all the stops so that evey nation would be clamouring to come and tour. Instead they did the opposite and it very evidently had the opposite effect too.

[JonM]

25 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Just feels like all those great memories of international rugby league being a focal point are not shared by a younger generation that has more loyalty to club over country.

I don't think it's.a generational thing. Hard for anyone to get much of an attachment for a team that plays so infrequently. The England soccer team (and England Women's soccer team) are much higher profile today than they were in the past. Same thing in cricket - it's all about the national team.

[Gerrumonside ref]

22 minutes ago, JonM said:

I don't think it's.a generational thing. Hard for anyone to get much of an attachment for a team that plays so infrequently. The England soccer team (and England Women's soccer team) are much higher profile today than they were in the past. Same thing in cricket - it's all about the national team.

I just don’t see what the emotional attachment to England RL is for younger fans and we tend to see this reflected in attendance levels that feed into venue choices that becomes a vicious cycle.

At least in cricket there’s some happy Ashes winning, One Day World Cup final drama to cling onto for people under a certain age plus a new aggressive playing style.

In football we are reaching the latter stages of tournaments on a frequency that even qualifying is seen as a cruise and people’s debate is mainly that we are not succeeding in style.

 

Edited March 29 by Gerrumonside ref

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

It had to be used as a shop window to entice countries to want to visit and instead it was yet another example of 'will this do' and on the cheap.

We saw the kind of show the NRL expects with the Vegas event. It could never have been as good as that but it could have headed in that direction.

I could have lived with one of the three tests being ambitious I. E. London and the other two being safe, but in reality there is no such thing as safe for England rl. They were rubbish. 

[Dave T]

56 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Are we entering an era where an international club competition (the best of the best CL style) is the only way we are going to get elite NRL calibre players regularly on these shores?

Just feels like all those great memories of international rugby league being a focal point are not shared by a younger generation that has more loyalty to club over country.

I’m not saying this is ideal but it might be reality for the moment. 

I don't agree with this. Test crowds compare very well. Crowds for some of the World Cup games just couldn't have been dreamt of back in the 80s. 

[JonM]

4 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I just don’t see what the emotional attachment to England RL is for younger fans and we tend to see this reflected in attendance levels that feed into venue choices that becomes a vicious cycle.

At least in cricket there’s some happy Ashes winning, One Day World Cup final drama to cling onto for people under a certain age plus a new aggressive playing style.

In football we are reaching the latter stages of tournaments on a frequency that even qualifying is seen as a cruise and people’s debate is mainly that we are not succeeding in style.

As a child, I saw GB lose to Australia in 1978, a drawn home series vs NZ in 1980, a thrashing from the Aussies in 1982, some tv coverage of us losing to both Australia & NZ away in 1984, another drawn home series against NZ in 1985, another beating from the Aussies in 1986. First time I saw us beat the Aussies was 1988, early morning TV, third test in Sydney -  Henderson Gill, Mike Gregory, Phil Ford and Martin Offiah. No world cup for most of that period too. So I don't think it was success on the field that formed the attachment for our generation.

We had 8000 kids watching England women vs Brazil 18 months ago, one of the most enjoyable RL experiences of my life. Predictably, the RFL appear to have done nothing to follow up on that.

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 minutes ago, JonM said:

As a child, I saw GB lose to Australia in 1978, a drawn home series vs NZ in 1980, a thrashing from the Aussies in 1982, some tv coverage of us losing to both Australia & NZ away in 1984, another drawn home series against NZ in 1985, another beating from the Aussies in 1986. First time I saw us beat the Aussies was 1988, early morning TV, third test in Sydney -  Henderson Gill, Mike Gregory, Phil Ford and Martin Offiah. No world cup for most of that period too. So I don't think it was success on the field that formed the attachment for our generation.

We had 8000 kids watching England women vs Brazil 18 months ago, one of the most enjoyable RL experiences of my life. Predictably, the RFL appear to have done nothing to follow up on that.

You’ve ended the timeline at a convenient point there though!

What about the late 80’s and early/mid 90’s?

A quick glance at the best ever games thread suggests there were plenty of happy memories of GB around that time period.

[Dave T]

We can't create this false narrative that demand has dropped off since the 80s and 90s. It simply isn't true. It plays into a narrative that allows things to be cancelled. 

Sure we had a small handful of 50k+ crowds over these 20 years (4 to be exact) but many of the other crowds were really low. 

In the last couple of decades we've seen World Cups deliver some very good events, huge crowds for neutral finals, 67k for the Semis at Wembley, 45k in London for a Kiwi test as well. 

The demand is still there. 

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

You’ve ended the timeline at a convenient point there though!

What about the late 80’s and early/mid 90’s?

A quick glance at the best ever games thread suggests there were plenty of happy memories of GB around that time period.

Because we’re all, broadly, a certain age