England vs Samoa Series

[UTK]

34 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I strongly disagree. And I do wish people would get over this Northern obsession (it clearly isn't only the RFL) - the North of England isn't some little oddity - it is England, and can be called as such.

As per my many posts over the last few days, the RFL have driven Tier 2 nations being brought to the table in World Cups and Four Nations, until the NRL sacked them off again. Anyone who thinks that Scotland, Ireland and Wales are any kind of opposition that will grow substantially want their bumps felt (and I say that as a Scotland fan). 

But, if we do want to go down that route:

In the last 10 years the Aussies have played 32 Tests - 14 of them outside the big 3. (this doesn't include the annual PNGXIII game to be fair)

England have played 32 Tests - 21 of them outside the big 3.

Who do you think was the driver behind more tier 2 nations in the World Cups?

Again, over the last 10 years, the top 20 crowds in international RL have seen 9 in England, 5 in Oz and 6 in NZ.

We shouldn't rewrite history because of a below-par Tonga series.

Except those 4N have been replaced by competitions that now give Tonga or Samoa (now both in 2024) games against AUS/NZ every single year, as opposed to the once every cycle if you're lucky enough to qualify of the 4N. I certainly wouldn't claim that AUS/NZ has been a supporter of the International game as a whole but there is a persistent myth that England isn't cut from the same cloth. Lack of accessibility to AUS/NZ is the ultimate reason for that tier 2 nation number with France making up the majority of those tests, and even that fixture hasn't been a permanent fixture despite the proximity of France.

I wasn't intending to be derogatory to the North but I accept such a reference is often utilised as such so should've framed it better - readjusting the statement to address with what I intended to get at: A full house for Tonga v Samoa in front of Tongan/Samoan fans does far more for the International game (and for those nations) than 3 poorly attended matches that are played within 100km of each other - the scope within which that could be seen as 'growing the game by playing International matches across the world' is extremely limited.

As is consistent with that top 20 crowds statistic, the only place that test matches involving tier 2 nations have received any sort of support outside WCs is AUS/NZ, that is not controversial statement that purports to rewrite history.

This tour was the opportunity to break that stat and it failed rather miserably, on the opposite side of the world Samoa averaged 20k across their matches in front of their own fans across both AUS/NZ. Why would Samoa opt to forego playing in front of their own fans, to play in front of much smaller crowds, halfway across the world? How would that provide the International game more value than Samoa participating in the Pacific 4N - a competition that takes place across multiple competing nations? Theoretically it gives England closer competition - which is a genuine benefit for the game, but it's not as if such a move precludes England from playing altogether and it prevents Samoa from continuing to build upon their own support for zero additional benefit.

 

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Yorkshire v Lancashire it is then...

[BristolDevonCharlie]

59 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Fwiw, I think a tri/4 nations series with France, Lebanon and Wales is likely going to be the best we can get over here in the NH. I'd play France and Wales away from home (or at least in the South West of England for Wales). Lebanon strikes me as a decent game for a smaller London venue or Leeds - on the assumption that Beirut is out and the RFL aren't going to the Gulf. 

The alternative would be us going down under to play the teams not playing that week in the Pacific Cup, but Samoa staying might suggest that the top tier of that becomes a 4 team comp anyway which punts us to PNG, FIJI and the Cook Islands - which seems far more expensive than hosting a lower key NH tournament.

Finally, maybe a Euros? Or a few NA nations.

Lebanon is the best viable option. 

No qualifiers needed for them for RLWC 2026, so they have a free year unless they (somewhat pointlessly) join the MEA Cup.

However, I see no reason why France & Wales would waste there opportunity to qualify for a RLWC just to help England get a game. 

However, having England in the Euros (like Knights were due to be this year), is the next best option.

England unlikely to join a Pacific competition, and go to the southern hemisphere three years on the spin. 

 

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

When NFL and MLB go international, we give up and succeed by pushing the club game....so ridiculous

Not just them, the NBA too. The Cleveland Cavaliers held their training camp down in Brazil this year and one of their management staff told the Brazilian media they want to become Brazil's team in the NBA. 

As fanciful as that might sound, it does show their international ambition.

[Big Picture]

So, a dozen pages of discussion and no real answers because the game in the northern hemisphere can't generate the sort of money needed to change things.

Quite simply the game north of the equator (or east of the international date line to put it another way) needs a counterweight to the financial strength of the NRL, nothing less can change things.  And for that someone will have to create a competition which can be that counterweight and more.

 Absent that, terminal decline awaits the game in our parts of the world. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Big Picture

[StandOffHalf]

I don't blame Samoa.

They looked at the Tonga series and saw the venues, attendances, weather, ref interpretations, and the overall mood. They feel that they are better served by playing Down Under.

I think Tonga v Samoa does more for the international game TBH.

I liked the Exiles concept. I hope England either go with that or a two-game series in France. A full-strength France are a good team.

Edited November 10, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[Mojo]

2 hours ago, UTK said:

Except those 4N have been replaced by competitions that now give Tonga or Samoa (now both in 2024) games against AUS/NZ every single year, as opposed to the once every cycle if you're lucky enough to qualify of the 4N. I certainly wouldn't claim that AUS/NZ has been a supporter of the International game as a whole but there is a persistent myth that England isn't cut from the same cloth. Lack of accessibility to AUS/NZ is the ultimate reason for that tier 2 nation number with France making up the majority of those tests, and even that fixture hasn't been a permanent fixture despite the proximity of France.

I wasn't intending to be derogatory to the North but I accept such a reference is often utilised as such so should've framed it better - readjusting the statement to address with what I intended to get at: A full house for Tonga v Samoa in front of Tongan/Samoan fans does far more for the International game (and for those nations) than 3 poorly attended matches that are played within 100km of each other - the scope within which that could be seen as 'growing the game by playing International matches across the world' is extremely limited.

As is consistent with that top 20 crowds statistic, the only place that test matches involving tier 2 nations have received any sort of support outside WCs is AUS/NZ, that is not controversial statement that purports to rewrite history.

This tour was the opportunity to break that stat and it failed rather miserably, on the opposite side of the world Samoa averaged 20k across their matches in front of their own fans across both AUS/NZ. Why would Samoa opt to forego playing in front of their own fans, to play in front of much smaller crowds, halfway across the world? How would that provide the International game more value than Samoa participating in the Pacific 4N - a competition that takes place across multiple competing nations? Theoretically it gives England closer competition - which is a genuine benefit for the game, but it's not as if such a move precludes England from playing altogether and it prevents Samoa from continuing to build upon their own support for zero additional benefit.

 

 

Well said. The best way to sell the international game is watching a full stadium on TV. Like I said before on this forum Samoa vs Tonga is the biggest international match in the world. You can't go two years without organising a match between the two nations in front of a packed stadium. If we want origin to be the back burner we need the aussies to be beaten more often and the international games to be sold out and that's what Samoa vs Tonga can do.

The International rugby league board needs to organise at least a 3 game series for Samoa and Tonga in Auckland,  Wellington and Sydney in 2025. Those games will be sold out if not near sold out. It'll give the game a good look and not the half empty stadium that we saw in the final.

[StandOffHalf]

Yes, a Samoa v Tonga 3-game series at Eden Park and two out of Wellington/Brisbane/Melbourne/Sydney would be such a festival of international football, festooned in feel-good colour and vibrancy.

Surely it's got to happen sooner than later! It is the best look that international RL has at present.

Edited November 10, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, UTK said:

and it prevents Samoa from continuing to build upon their own support for zero additional benefit.

Well written, but you would have to think that touring as their national team to the other side of the world, something often the preserve of union teams would increase the prestige and profile of the Samoan national Rugby League, likewise any touring national team for that matter. HST, the Tongan tour was hardly inspirational though both on and off the field, shame to write the concept off so quickly though, but I do see your point.

[Mojo]

The only solution is that England travels and joins SH comp and rename it 5 Nations. England winning it can promote the game even more in the NH and it'll get the fans excited.

It'll benefit England immensely playing 4 top notch matches

[Jack GB]

29 minutes ago, Mojo said:

The only solution is that England travels and joins SH comp and rename it 5 Nations. England winning it can promote the game even more in the NH and it'll get the fans excited.

It'll benefit England immensely playing 4 top notch matches

I get the impression we're not invited... the more i think about it the more i feel we have got to play france - 1 mid season test and 2 at the end of the year - if possible 2 of these in france and one in England. 

we have to start building france now otherwise we will continue to have these conversations every year when a SH team can't/won't come to the NH. 

I think we would likely pretty easily win a 3 test series against france 3-0 but i would hope a full strength france could put up a decent game (maybe only for 55-60 mins...) 

I think we have to focus on France Internationals as much as possible (alongside getting Toulouse into SL, getting more french youngsters into other SL teams etc) 

 

 

 

[Mojo]

9 minutes ago, Jack GB said:

I get the impression we're not invited... the more i think about it the more i feel we have got to play france - 1 mid season test and 2 at the end of the year - if possible 2 of these in france and one in England. 

we have to start building france now otherwise we will continue to have these conversations every year when a SH team can't/won't come to the NH. 

I think we would likely pretty easily win a 3 test series against france 3-0 but i would hope a full strength france could put up a decent game (maybe only for 55-60 mins...) 

I think we have to focus on France Internationals as much as possible (alongside getting Toulouse into SL, getting more french youngsters into other SL teams etc) 

 

 

 

That will never work if France top players keeps rejecting the national team like they did this year.

France should play in the bowl cup with Fiji, Png and Cook Islands.

It would be crazy to deny England from joining the four nations, it would grow the game even more

[Jack GB]

29 minutes ago, Mojo said:

That will never work if France top players keeps rejecting the national team like they did this year.

France should play in the bowl cup with Fiji, Png and Cook Islands.

It would be crazy to deny England from joining the four nations, it would grow the game even more

Do you know the reason why the top french players don't turn out for France? 

i think the issue we may face is the NRL are trying to build a pacific championship and are building this branding. adding european teams doesn't work... (i agree though this should have been 4/6 nations tournaments in different hemispheres - but it seems it's too late to change that now?) 

 

[NRLandSL]

I might be the only person but I would much rather see a France series than a Samoa series so I’m stoked about this news. Maybe a team like PNG or Fiji could come on tour and make a 3/4 team small tournament.

[Mojo]

22 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

I might be the only person but I would much rather see a France series than a Samoa series so I’m stoked about this news. Maybe a team like PNG or Fiji could come on tour and make a 3/4 team small tournament.

Yup you are definitely the only one bud

[The Partisan]

Would a Triple Header European Internationals weekend (or weekends) work in the northern hemisphere?  

France v England in France in a three test series. Possibly one in the UK but not in the M62 corridor.  

For the other games of the day Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Serbia, Netherlands, Italy (?), Germany and others go through a selection process with criteria to meet to be eligible for awarding of a game v opposition of a similiar level. 

Possibly have something like...

Weekend 1; In France ; 

Germany v Netherlands (Griffin Cup game) 

Serbia v Greece (Balkan Cup Challenge) 

France v England 1st Test

Something similiar for weekends two and three.

If game played in UK have Ireland v Wales and perhaps Scotland v Italy .  Jamaica / Lebanon v Ireland and Wales v Scotland as an option if opening up to other NH areas. 

As an international rugby league advocate I am disappointed with the news re Samoa but as a game we need to accept the setback and achieve a comeback.  In my idea the comeback embraces the new frontiers and their supporters. 

 

 

 

 

[gingerjon]

6 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Yorkshire v Lancashire it is then...

Nothing would sum up the game's contraction more than that being the only representative RL played in England next year.

[The Masked Poster]

I can't remember why exactly but there were no overseas touring sides in 2012. Maybe this was because there was a WC the following year but either way, I seem to remember a Tri series with England/France/Wales? I definitely went to the final in Salford anyway and there was a respectable, if not outstanding crowd there. 

Maybe a similar thing this year? Ok it's unlikely to set the world on fire but if the alternative is nothing, then maybe worth a shot? 

I'm also going to be contradictory by saying that the Tonga series was NOT as bad as some are painting it. Yes, I agree with most of the criticism - and more. But the games were ok/decent and the crowds, whilst disappointing, weren't the worst we've had for international series. (Look up Kiwi tour 1971) 

[NRLandSL]

1 hour ago, Mojo said:

Yup you are definitely the only one bud

as a Samoa supporter were you wanting to play in pacific cup or tour England?

[StandOffHalf]

For what it's worth, I also prefer England v France and Samoa staying back to take on the Tongans.

I just hope France play a game in Avignon or Carcassonne, and that they are as full-strength as possible.

[Mathius Hellwege]

To all the France and Wales proposals, they have to qalifiy for the 2025 World Series in autumn 2024

So you can only play them in the Mid-Sesaon window, if it exists

End of season you can play Lebanon (already qualified), Jamaica (if they sty the only full member of the America and are thus automatically qualified for the World Series and forego the Americas championship fpr touring UK) and Papua (very unlikely) or Fiji (very very unlikely as they are supposed host the lesser tournament in 2024)

[GeordieSaint]

I appreciate France and Wales are probably a no-go next season. But between the RFL, WRL and FRL, they need to develop a strategy to develop the sport up here across those nations. Stop messing around and do something serious for the benefit of the game. I despise the NRL leadership but they are actively developing the sport in the Pacific. We are desperate for similar leadership up here. Desperate. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Nothing would sum up the game's contraction more than that being the only representative RL played in England next year.

And yet why do I have a nagging feeling that this is what we'll end up with?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 hours ago, Mojo said:

It would be crazy to deny England from joining the four nations, it would grow the game even more

A 5-team round robin would take them 5 weeks to play. A 4-team round robin takes only 3 weeks. There's no way they're going to extend the comp by another 2 weeks.

[crashmon]

I think we can all accept that we won't have a three test series next year for England at the end of next year

So what are the options

1) Game vs France in France,  France could use it as a warm up for the World cup qualifers they need to play.  Possibly game v Wales in wales but I don't think wales are anywhere near ready for a England test.

2) Go to the SH and join the bowl comp. After all the bowl comp only has 3 teams (PNG, Fiji, Cooks).  Hpwever this while really boosting Fiji, PNG, Cooks, will do nothing to help England brand, nor the NH in anyway.  It also would be a financial hit.  The only positive is that Playing Fiji and PNG away will at keast give the England players some meaningful opposition.

3) Do a combined nations type event again.  Only include NH England players ( so cutting on cost of flying Eng NRLplayers over from Aus).   This at least will give the fans a game to watch, and also Sky would probably cover it. 

The problem I see is all of the above are loss making from a Financal sense.  I don't see any option for an Engalnd game next year which does not lose the RFL money,  As we know RFL have very little if any money, I would expect that at most we will get option 3 at the LSV.

At a punt you could talk to Wimbledon and see if you could do the game vs the Combined Nations in London at PL.  I doubt you would get more than 10K anyway, and as the Broncos are in SL at least for next season, you could try and use it to attract more fans at the club level. 

Adding extra point

If you are going with point 3 at Plough Lane (or outside heartlands), you might as well have the game scheduled for 2025 and 2026 as well as a warm up games before heading down under. So you schedule three games one for 2024, one for 2025 and one for 2026 all at PL.  2024 vs combined nations, 2025 could be vs France for instance.

Edited November 10, 2023 by crashmon