IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

where has the expansion programme proved successful away from the confines of the M62 corridor

The same places where the expansion programme has been funded and resourced appropriately.

Edited April 14 by RugbyLeagueGeek

[JohnM]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yeah Norfolk is still hardened RL country,

So tell me, in your life time of being involved in this game where has the expansion programme proved successful away from the confines of the M62 corridor save for London 40 few years ago, brush it up any way you want to John and call me parochial but at the bottom of it you know I am not to far off the truth, Rugby League does not travel well in this country, even your good self could only go down the road for your RL fix from your spiritual home of Swinton, to your new love.

Somehow, though, I've managed to support and follow the game in varying degrees and intensity when I lived in Swinton, Manchester, Atherton, Hampshire, Switzerland, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Surrey, France and Lincolnshire. 

Expansion had been just  as successful as keeping the game alive in the frozen north, though. Whatever happened to Huyton, Trafford, Liverpool, Belle Vue,  Nottingham.....and although they are  still going, look at the great names of the past: Bradford, Halifax, Widnes, and clinging on are Wakefield, Castleford, Salford. We don't even know if Leigh are going to be sustainable in the long term.  Perhaps it's not geography, perhaps  it's northern folk who don't want the game at all or folk who want to keep the game small and local for fear of losing control, like an episode of "The League of Gentlemen". 

An exaggeration and a simplification, maybe, and not intending to demean and minimise the efforts, donations, loans, investment etc. that fans and directors and owners put in, but really, it's a more complex  issue than merely saying it's a northern game for northern folk.  It's 2024 not 1895. The world and is people are entirely different now, compared with them. Hence IMG. They live in the here and now.

 

Edited April 14 by JohnM

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

Somehow, though, I've managed to support and follow the game in varying degrees and intensity when I lived in Swinton, Manchester, Atherton, Hampshire, Switzerland, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Surrey, France and Lincolnshire. 

Expansion had been just  as successful as keeping the game alive in the frozen north, though. Whatever happened to Huyton, Trafford, Liverpool, Belle Vue,  Nottingham.....and although they are  still going, look at the great names of the past: Bradford, Halifax, Widnes, and clinging on are Wakefield, Castleford, Salford. We don't even know if Leigh are going to be sustainable in the long term.  Perhaps it's not geography, perhaps  it's northern folk who don't want the game at all or folk who want to keep the game small and local for fear of losing control, like an episode of "The League of Gentlemen". 

An exaggeration and a simplification, maybe, and not intending to demean and minimise the efforts, donations, loans, investment etc. that fans and directors and owners put in, but really, it's a more complex  issue than merely saying it's a northern game for northern folk.  It's 2024 not 1895. The world and is people are entirely different now, compared with them. Hence IMG. They live in the here and now.

 

IMG will not spread domestic RL. They will get their closed shop and that will be it. Not a chance of any new clubs, (if any come on board) getting anywhere near the SL. If they are still around in five years tops I will be amazed.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The same places where the expansion programme has been funded and resourced appropriately.

Where's that then?

[Worzel]

23 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Before the start of that season being '18 with the recruitment of that team they were the clear favourites without exception to 'walk' the league with all the commentators, scribes and experts such was the so called quality of the playing roster, honestly believe me when I tell you the hardest work they did was to hold out their hands to get paid each week, as unprofessional as you claim Mr Beaumont to have been the majority of those player's were worse.

When performance is this far under expectation it is almost always a fault of leadership:

- Either you recruited the wrong people, whether the wrong "type" because you misunderstood the mission, or the right type but not good enough because you assessed them incorrectly (whether their skills, or their culture-fit)...

- Or perhaps you recruited the right people but didn't coach and develop them well, or create a culture within which they could perform...

- Or maybe you recruited the right people, did the development stuff too, but failed to performance manage them on the initial times that they under-performed and create an "improvement environment"

So like I say this level of failure is always a fault of leadership. One player under-performing, that's his fault and you deal with it and move on. An entire team under-performing, over an entire year? That's your fault, or the people you hired to lead them's fault (which is also your fault), and so its a cowards way out to just cast blame downwards.

 

[Worzel]

9 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

IMG will not spread domestic RL. They will get their closed shop and that will be it. Not a chance of any new clubs, (if any come on board) getting anywhere near the SL. If they are still around in five years tops I will be amazed.

"New clubs" to spread domestic RL isn't a success metric. Increasing the value of media rights, which creates a more attractive investment environment later (whether for investors into new clubs, or investors into future additional clubs) is the success metric. But the first thing comes first. If we believe that the best way to do that is move to a closed comp, based on some quality criteria broader than "spend a fortune on your team for one season", in order to provide the ability for clubs to better plan for the long-term, then this is the right path. "Spreading" doesn't matter yet. 

Rugby league has often put the second thing first, with dots on maps, or grandiose dreams of new comps or random events. We've tried that for years. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Worzel said:

When performance is this far under expectation it is almost always a fault of leadership:

- Either you recruited the wrong people, whether the wrong "type" because you misunderstood the mission, or the right type but not good enough because you assessed them incorrectly (whether their skills, or their culture-fit)...

- Or perhaps you recruited the right people but didn't coach and develop them well, or create a culture within which they could perform...

- Or maybe you recruited the right people, did the development stuff too, but failed to performance manage them on the initial times that they under-performed and create an "improvement environment"

So like I say this level of failure is always a fault of leadership. One player under-performing, that's his fault and you deal with it and move on. An entire team under-performing, over an entire year? That's your fault, or the people you hired to lead them's fault (which is also your fault), and so its a cowards way out to just cast blame downwards.

 

Yes you can play 'The buck stops here' card anyway you like, tell that to thousands of parents who have done everything humanly possible to teach and bring up their offspring in a correct and proper manner, but it doesn't always work does it?

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Worzel said:

If we believe that the best way to do that is move to a closed comp

Well you see that is where a lot differ, who is the 'we' by the way?

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

IMG will not spread domestic RL. They will get their closed shop and that will be it. Not a chance of any new clubs, (if any come on board) getting anywhere near the SL. If they are still around in five years tops I will be amazed.

It will not be in the interest of IMG to spread domestic RL, for one they will look at the history of the many start up professional clubs in the last 40/45 years and realise that albeit the sport is appreciated for what it is in parts of Northern England the enthusiasm wanes somewhat when that northern corridor is breached.

Also IMG are a business, and if they do last the 12 years of their agreement with the RFL, apart from the £450K per year I am led to believe they are charging for their input, they are also on a profit share basis - of an undisclosed %. It will not be in their interest to have clubs below SL eating into the top line of the RFL's turnover effectively reducing their cut.

I am with you 100% that the intention of IMG is to close the door on the transition of movement between SL and clubs from the lower divisions, they can't do it immediately as it was objected to from their original intentions. Hats of to them though they have cobbled together a system so weighted in favour of the majority of the incumbent SL clubs that they will get their 'Closed Shop' in the not to distant future.

What I don't understand is that the RFL should be acting on behalf of all their member clubs but they are seemingly putting all their eggs into the IMG basket, indeed to such an extent that one Club Chairman told me that Ralph Rimmer CEO at the time of the vote was actively campaigning with the lower division clubs suggesting to them that voting in the IMG proposal was the right way to go.

I have said it before, I see this system will be a reflection of the 'licensing years' before long, Championship clubs will feel the brunt of it, interest amongst the fans will eventually repeat itself to be the same as what happened in those 6 years '09 to '14 when they turned their backs, the authorities then saw sense and reintroduced a competitive system of rewarding and penalising clubs through P&R, interest and crowds picked up even in SL, I dread to think what would be the state of RL in country had that not been done.

[Roughyed Rats]

29 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am with you 100% that the intention of IMG is to close the door on the transition of movement between SL and clubs from the lower divisions, they can't do it immediately as it was objected to from their original intentions. Hats of to them though they have cobbled together a system so weighted in favour of the majority of the incumbent SL clubs that they will get their 'Closed Shop' in the not to distant future.

Exactly what they did in basketball. Started off with grading then moved to a franchise closed shop model.  

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes you can play 'The buck stops here' card anyway you like, tell that to thousands of parents who have done everything humanly possible to teach and bring up their offspring in a correct and proper manner, but it doesn't always work does it?

Not the same thing at all, a team or organisation is a completely different context. One child is - at most - equivalent to one player in my analysis. Teams don't fail because in the disastrous way you describe because just one player doesn't meet expectations. Parents don't get to choose (recruit) their children, they deal with what they have for better or worse. But in a sports or organisational team setting long-term performance is the leaders' responsibility. Always.  

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well you see that is where a lot differ, who is the 'we' by the way?

"We" is the elite level of the sport collectively, even if some individuals are less enthusiastic than others. This is what "we" have decided to do. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Worzel said:

Not the same thing at all, a team or organisation is a completely different context. One child is - at most - equivalent to one player in my analysis. Teams don't fail because in the disastrous way you describe because just one player doesn't meet expectations. Parents don't get to choose (recruit) their children, they deal with what they have for better or worse. But in a sports or organisational team setting long-term performance is the leaders' responsibility. Always.  

Unless you have a coup, and that one as in an individual becomes many which when observing it at close quarters was what it seemed to be, anyway you stick with your interpretation and I will believe in what I observed. End off.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Worzel said:

"We" is the elite level of the sport collectively, even if some individuals are less enthusiastic than others. This is what "we" have decided to do. 

That has cleared that up then, the we's are the IMG followers, and those less enthusiastic are well ........... you tell me?

[Worzel]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

That has cleared that up then, the we's are the IMG followers, and those less enthusiastic are well ........... you tell me?

No, the "we" is the sports elite comp. The clubs, collectively. Your "IMG followers" jibe is unnecessary, I don't follow anyone I've my own mind, and just prefer this path to our past despite some of its limitations. This isn't some sort of religious belief! 

[Worzel]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Unless you have a coup, and that one as in an individual becomes many which when observing it at close quarters was what it seemed to be, anyway you stick with your interpretation and I will believe in what I observed. End off.

Unless orchestrated by an outside party like the CIA, or another internal historical power base like the army, most coups are usually the leaders fault too!! End of 

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Worzel said:

No, the "we" is the sports elite comp. The clubs, collectively. Your "IMG followers" jibe is unnecessary, I don't follow anyone I've my own mind, and just prefer this path to our past despite some of its limitations. This isn't some sort of religious belief! 

I think we all have our own mindset on this matter, mine is that this system apart for the 'sports elite comp' will result in very damaging consequences, and that doesn't just mean the clubs below SL but also their RL communities, if this system does as I fear it will do it will lead to apathy and eventual club closures it could cause more repercussions for the sport.

Edited April 15 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

Anyway @Worzelwe are miles apart on our interpretations, but enjoyed the debate.

[dkw]

12 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

IMG will not spread domestic RL. They will get their closed shop and that will be it. Not a chance of any new clubs, (if any come on board) getting anywhere near the SL. If they are still around in five years tops I will be amazed.

As opposed to how open minded everyone is to expansion the last few decades, that's gone really well hasn't it, with the RFL actually putting things in place to stymie it where it looks like taking hold. And the fans eh, they're so welcoming and open to new clubs all the time.....

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

As opposed to how open minded everyone is to expansion the last few decades, that's gone really well hasn't it, with the RFL actually putting things in place to stymie it where it looks like taking hold. And the fans eh, they're so welcoming and open to new clubs all the time.....

We shouldn't let some loudmouths become the voice of the sport. The likes of Catalans have been embraced with huge travelling numbers and many large crowds when they travel here (admittedly with discounts in many cases) - in the main fans have been absolutely welcoming. 

They are many fans 2nd team. 

Similar with TWP, whilst there are many loud dissenters, we shouldn't see that as RL fans not being welcoming, many travelled there and many wanted them to do well. 

Edited April 15 by Dave T

[JohnM]

 Couldn't agree more and would add that It's one thing being a critic of the Reimagining project. It's another thing entirely wanting and hoping for  failure.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

We shouldn't let some loudmouths become the voice of the sport. The likes of Catalans have been embraced with huge travelling numbers and many large crowds when they travel here (admittedly with discounts in many cases) - in the main fans have been absolutely welcoming. 

They are many fans 2nd team. 

Similar with TWP, whilst there are many loud dissenters, we shouldn't see that as RL fans not being welcoming, many travelled there and many wanted them to do well. 

Hi Dave, I don't know who that first sentence is directed at but presumably those you disagree with, A bit harsh wasn't it?

If you are bring critical of what I wrote about expansion, I don't know why you are quoting two overseas clubs I was specifically talking about RL expansion within the confines of the UK, the game doesn't travel well away from the heartlands it is simply not appreciated enough by the locals to take hold as has been proven in the past.

In relation to the two overseas teams you quote yes fans in this country have/did visit them in good numbers and I should imagine will continue to do so, but I strongly suggest not just for the game but as I did the opportunity to visit places I would most likely not have done but for the rugby, on that respect if Toulouse do go up under this system, do you think that will retract from the numbers who visit Catalan or double the numbers visiting France?

As for the discounts some clubs apply when Catalan visit them I should imagine that you are referring to the recent game at the HJ were Warrington got good numbers in by offering entrance for £5, nothing wrong with that at all and it could entice some back willing to pay the full fare. Do you reckon the club could extend that to two heavily discounted games should Toulouse gain SL status, or would it make season ticket holders think twice about paying up front?

[dkw]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

We shouldn't let some loudmouths become the voice of the sport. The likes of Catalans have been embraced with huge travelling numbers and many large crowds when they travel here (admittedly with discounts in many cases) - in the main fans have been absolutely welcoming. 

They are many fans 2nd team. 

Similar with TWP, whilst there are many loud dissenters, we shouldn't see that as RL fans not being welcoming, many travelled there and many wanted them to do well. 

I was thinking more the RFL making Toulouse and Catalans pay for opposition teams travelling, taking the easy way out with Cornwall and the cup competition to not upset established clubs etc. 

[Dave T]

39 minutes ago, dkw said:

I was thinking more the RFL making Toulouse and Catalans pay for opposition teams travelling, taking the easy way out with Cornwall and the cup competition to not upset established clubs etc. 

I've no issues with making overseas clubs pay (although this method is clumsy) but I was addressing your point that fans are not friendly to expansion efforts. I don't find teh main are like that at all tbh mate. 

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Dave, I don't know who that first sentence is directed at but presumably those you disagree with, A bit harsh wasn't it?

If you are bring critical of what I wrote about expansion, I don't know why you are quoting two overseas clubs I was specifically talking about RL expansion within the confines of the UK, the game doesn't travel well away from the heartlands it is simply not appreciated enough by the locals to take hold as has been proven in the past.

In relation to the two overseas teams you quote yes fans in this country have/did visit them in good numbers and I should imagine will continue to do so, but I strongly suggest not just for the game but as I did the opportunity to visit places I would most likely not have done but for the rugby, on that respect if Toulouse do go up under this system, do you think that will retract from the numbers who visit Catalan or double the numbers visiting France?

As for the discounts some clubs apply when Catalan visit them I should imagine that you are referring to the recent game at the HJ were Warrington got good numbers in by offering entrance for £5, nothing wrong with that at all and it could entice some back willing to pay the full fare. Do you reckon the club could extend that to two heavily discounted games should Toulouse gain SL status, or would it make season ticket holders think twice about paying up front?

My point wasn't related to you or anyone specifically, it was that we shouldn't give undue prominence to viewpoints because they can be noisy. The noisiest crowd aren't always the largest. Imo Catalans have been received warmly, as have other expansion clubs, despite noisy criticism. 

It's easy to end up in echo chambers and believe a certain view, when it is more useful to study the data and see that viewing figs, crowds and travelling numbers can be high for them. 

On the Season ticket point, again, I don't think in reality a large portion of people are that bothered by this kind of thing. Many season ticket holders get good value anyway, and these concessions are for the lowest quality stand. But even then plenty of season ticket holders take advantage of it by bringing new fans along. 

Someay grumble, but the evidence appears to be there that the fans appreciate the good crowd, kids present and better atmosphere.