The Reality of the IMG Grading System

[Lowdesert]

13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not at all, what did the Leigh do? That is the new blueprint.

The new footprint is then to find someone who can afford to continue to pay big money even if the club doesn’t win the Championship?  Do you think many rich people will commit to that ‘Blueprint’? 

Sure it’s going to be difficult enough to commit to all the audit requirements of IMG but that is what’s required now.  

[Roughyed Rats]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

And IMG hasn't caused them to stop?

When exactly did it start? Because the clubs have known for some time now that some form of minimum standards/licensing was coming in.

Thankfully it didn't make them stop. No details of the 'standards/licensing' were issued until following their acquisition. Their position on IMG has been made very clear as part of their very open and transparent communication with supporters. 

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I think it’s an exciting league, each to their own.

I think it is the ultimate form of Rugby league Chris and prefer to watch it more than SL.

But that is not the reason why I answered the way I did, but I guess you already knew that.

[Roughyed Rats]

9 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Ok fair enough, it didn’t stop the investment going through though did it. And they openly praised it saying it’s exciting for the game and Oldham

No they didn't. That's a complete fabrication.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

No they didn't. That's a complete fabrication.

You find a lot of that with IMG fans, everything in the game is rosy now JUST because of their involvement.

Edited April 11 by Harry Stottle

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

No they didn't. That's a complete fabrication.

what have I fabricated?
 

“Today’s announcement comes at a time when the whole sport is going through a significant period of change. The RFL partnership with IMG hails the start of an exciting time for the game and we believe for Oldham RLFC. It is clear that off-the-field performance will become an increasingly important success factor and the club is committed to developing a winning team both on and off thefield”

https://www.totalrl.com/former-castleford-and-oldham-star-mike-ford-leads-takeover-of-league-one-club-alongside-local-businessman/

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

You find a lot of that with IMG fans, everything in the game is rosy now JUST because of their involvement.

Nonsense 

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Thankfully it didn't make them stop. No details of the 'standards/licensing' were issued until following their acquisition. Their position on IMG has been made very clear as part of their very open and transparent communication with supporters. 

So what's the problem then?

Clubs were well aware some change was coming to the top level at least. Not specifics, but they weren't stupid to the way the wind was blowing.

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

So what's the problem then?

Clubs were well aware some change was coming to the top level at least. Not specifics, but they weren't stupid to the way the wind was blowing.

IMG released their recommendations in Sept 2022

[glossop saint]

36 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What position did Wakey finish in the indicative scores? It would be foolhardy not to makesure that position was maintained, you do realise there is a massive difference in the funding they would receive if they were to go into the Championshipnext season, and all the other monetary positives that come along with SL status, bigger crowds, merchandise sales, matchday revenue etc etc, c'mon glossop it's not hard.

It's not hard, that's why I'm wondering why you're struggling with it.

Wakefield are on the precipice of the 12, with a season in the championship so reduced tv scores, crowd scores, finances etc that come with it. A very precarious position.

They have a new owner. Who has invested in the club. This increases their chances of therefore being in SL. More money in the game, possibly/probably directly as a result of wanting to score higher in the IMG grading.

You're using a really daft argument here Harry when you are saying people won't invest due to the new system. As has also been said, see Wigan and Oldham, though in different circumstances.

[Ovenden Grunt]

IMG is a stain on the sport of Rugby League and the sooner they pack up and go back to their shiny skyscraper in the good old USA the better.

[glossop saint]

28 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Can you imagine if they got relegated to L1 and then put into Spreadsheet League? The game would be even more of a laughing stock.

That won't happen due to the on field performance score. You are being completely disingenuous, as so many who argue against the IMG system are. And if it did then even more reason to have them in there as they would have overcome that performance disadvantage and shown themselves a top club. Note club not team.

Just to add there are also plenty who disagree with it and do put good, consistent points forward. They don't seem to be on this thread today.

[glossop saint]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You find a lot of that with IMG fans, everything in the game is rosy now JUST because of their involvement.

Incredibly hypocritical from someone who has a dislike of IMG to the point of having a rant that people used to dress better decades ago.

[Chrispmartha]

4 minutes ago, Ovenden Grunt said:

IMG is a stain on the sport of Rugby League and the sooner they pack up and go back to their shiny skyscraper in the good old USA the better.

You mean a business park in Chiswick?

[glossop saint]

4 minutes ago, Ovenden Grunt said:

IMG is a stain on the sport of Rugby League and the sooner they pack up and go back to their shiny skyscraper in the good old USA the better.

Yet more top quality balanced debate.

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

But reduces the sporting contest over all the division, fine if you like that kind of thing. 

I don't watch sport for relegation battles. Neither does anyone in the NRL, and there seems to be plenty of sporting contest down there. 

1 hour ago, phiggins said:

This system only really provides security from relegation to those that already have it anyway.

Not really. Hull KR are a Grade A club, they got relegated less than 10 years ago. But the whole point is to work to a league full of Grade A clubs, who will all have security from relegation. This phase-in period is only that, a phase-in. 

[Worzel]

37 minutes ago, Ovenden Grunt said:

IMG is a stain on the sport of Rugby League and the sooner they pack up and go back to their shiny skyscraper in the good old USA the better.

That seems a proportionate, well considered, rational response to the situation. Thanks. Halifax haven't been able to get into Super League for over 20 years under the current model, so they're hardly creating a new barrier for you. 

[phiggins]

4 minutes ago, Worzel said:

Not really. Hull KR are a Grade A club, they got relegated less than 10 years ago. But the whole point is to work to a league full of Grade A clubs, who will all have security from relegation. This phase-in period is only that, a phase-in. 

But I'm guessing that the Hull KR of 2016 would not have scored against this system as highly as the Hull KR of 2023 did? But they have shown that it is possible to grow and improve standards under a traditional P&R structure (though, I have said previously, I'd prefer a P&R with a minimum score condition to it).

You would imagine that for an A grade club to finish bottom, they would have to have made a number of seriously bad decisions and wasted a lot of resources. Which would beg the question, did they deserve that grading and excemption in the first place?

[Wakefield Ram]

On 08/04/2024 at 09:22, DemonUK said:

I know this has probably done to death before on here, but the reality to me is horrifying for our sport.

1)  For approximately 96% of our clubs the 'On The Field Performance' contribution totals LESS than 20% of the total

2) I have noticed a number of clubs announce million pound investments at the beginning of this season (some would say not a bad thing, but is it just to sit on the books?)

3) I would suggest that at least 50% of available points can be 'manipulated', (see point 2 above as an example)

I could go on but I thnk i have put across my own thoughts on this subject.  The result of this is you find clubs virtually admitting they don't care how they do on the field as they think by  concentrating 100% on off field performance they are almost certain they will be guaranteed a SL place.  London on the other hand are not throwing good money after bad as they are virtually sure they won't be in SL in 2025.  Look at Bradford after the last few years of mid table championship performances they managed to be up in 14th or 15th position only a small fraction of a point below being given a SL place.

I did think that the Grading system would be tweaked a little but nothing has been said. 

Is this still sport?  I don't know.  What do I think will happen a week or two before the end of the 2024 season?  In a word 'carnage'.

 

In my working life, I have lost count of the number of times we have tried to grade products / software etc.. by coming up with a weighted matrix. Yes, it's all open to manipulation.

I fully get something concrete like saying your stadium must have xx capacity to be in SL. It needs to be big enough to allow fans to attend and for the club to be able to generate income to compete. Or your club must not have been in administration in last 3 years to show some financial stability. But they have to be yes/no criteria. 

Anything else is open to manipulation, pure and simple. The points awarded and the weighting is totally subjective. It's made up and any club who narrowly miss out on SL due to whether they have electronic advertising boards etc.. and not due to playing performance will be entitled to go down the legal route. 

That we've allowed a third party (IMG) with no long-term interest in RL other than making themselves money shows the weakness in the RFL/SL leadership. And before anyone mentions "12 year strategic partnership" the last "strategic partnership" I came across on a work environment ended in the client (think RFL) suing the "strategic partner" (think IMG, but it wasn't them) for a large amount of money long before the proposed end of the partnership. And it was settled out of court.

The club I support Dewsbury Rams will never be in SL unless some billionaire decides to put in millions, so I've no axe to bring in that sense. But other than something concrete yes/ no criteria like minimum stadium capacity, then it will cause more long-term damage to the game than any alleged extra income that IMG may or may not generate. And I would expect both sides have exit clauses in the contract, so it's only as long as either party want to be involved. 

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, Worzel said:

I don't watch sport for relegation battles. Neither does anyone in the NRL, and there seems to be plenty of sporting contest down there. 

Not really. Hull KR are a Grade A club, they got relegated less than 10 years ago. But the whole point is to work to a league full of Grade A clubs, who will all have security from relegation. This phase-in period is only that, a phase-in. 

Will IMG's methods increase the quality of what happens on the field of play?

If No, when we have 12 'A' grades and no threat of relegation what is going to entice the punters through the gates or to buy subscriptions, or will those punters just be happy to turn up irrespective if games are meaningless, keep rolling out the NRL it seems to be the stock answer to go to, we do things different up here.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

1 hour ago, glossop saint said:

That won't happen due to the on field performance score. You are being completely disingenuous, as so many who argue against the IMG system are. And if it did then even more reason to have them in there as they would have overcome that performance disadvantage and shown themselves a top club. Note club not team.

Just to add there are also plenty who disagree with it and do put good, consistent points forward. They don't seem to be on this thread today.

Toulouse will score 1.5 points for population.  Castleford and Wakefield will score 0.5 points. 1 point equates to 9 places on the league ladder. Overcoming poor performance when you're being gifted ridiculous advantages like that probably says more about the scoring system than anything else.

[Worzel]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Will IMG's methods increase the quality of what happens on the field of play?

If No, when we have 12 'A' grades and no threat of relegation what is going to entice the punters through the gates or to buy subscriptions, or will those punters just be happy to turn up irrespective if games are meaningless, keep rolling out the NRL it seems to be the stock answer to go to, we do things different up here.

Well we know that promotion & relegation don't seem to improve it. Team after team coming up, only to get battered each week having only been able to cobble together a rough hewn squad in the few weeks available to do so. Unless your owner has blown £1m in the Championship building the squad a year early. I mean, that sounds like a really fair, healthy way to decide which teams are in Super League eh? 

You can become an A-grade club by investing in other things, with a better long term impact than "one year's playing squad that we can't really afford". That sounds better to me than someone like David Hughes blowing over £25m on London Broncos over the years. only leaving him and us with a part-time squad getting battered every week in a rented stadium, no training infrastructure and negligible community or business/commercial engagement.  

Us "doing things differently up here" hasn't seemed to have worked so far. 

[Worzel]

4 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Toulouse will score 1.5 points for population.  Castleford and Wakefield will score 0.5 points. 1 point equates to 9 places on the league ladder. Overcoming poor performance when you're being gifted ridiculous advantages like that probably says more about the scoring system than anything else.

It's not a ridiculous advantage, its a sensible way of suggesting which clubs have the greater potential for audience growth. 

[glossop saint]

5 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Toulouse will score 1.5 points for population.  Castleford and Wakefield will score 0.5 points. 1 point equates to 9 places on the league ladder. Overcoming poor performance when you're being gifted ridiculous advantages like that probably says more about the scoring system than anything else.

So if Toulouse get relegated from Champ to League 1 then their population won't be enough for them to overcome the on pitch performance score therefore meaning it is incredibly unlikely to happen and that the poster saying that they might get relegated and still put in SL is talking nonsense. Thank you for the maths.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

4 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

So if Toulouse get relegated from Champ to League 1 then their population won't be enough for them to overcome the on pitch performance score therefore meaning it is incredibly unlikely to happen and that the poster saying that they might get relegated and still put in SL is talking nonsense. Thank you for the maths.

In 2022 Toulouse finished 12th, in 2023 Toulouse finished 14th (2nd in championship), in 2024 its possible to get relegated from 12th but to be on the safe side lets say they finished 13th in the championship (25th overall) So 12+14+25=51. If we divide 51 by 3 we get 17 which would be there or thereabouts where Toulouse would finish on the performance ladder.  The population point would improve that position by 9 places on Wakefield and Castleford.  So, by my calculations it seems it would be possible for them to get relegated and still achieve SL. It would seem the original poster may be correct even though we both know Toulouse won't get relegated. Hope you enjoyed the maths.