The Reality of the IMG Grading System

[Roughyed Rats]

9 minutes ago, Click said:

And that is great for Oldham, what about other teams around them in the Championship and L1? 

Oldham currently look like a club that are in a positive place, and are growing now, which is good. Unfortunately, not all teams can say the same for the main part.

Which is absolutely my concern for the game as a whole outside the top flight. I could of course take a selfish view and be happy that we are in a positive place for the first time in 25 years. However, we've experienced just how bad things are and I can only see us losing more clubs if things continue as at present. 

[LeeF]

38 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

£12,000 is nothing in terms of the overall cost of running a club. 

If Oldham are playing, I watch them. If they are not and I wanted to see a game, I might be tempted to go and watch (or stream) a SL game. On free weekends (we had plenty last season), I did exactly that. Similarly, if SL fans wanted to watch some RL in their off season, they may be tempted to go to a game of winter RL. We had quite a few Wigan and St Helens fans at BP for our earlier games this season before SL started. 

Oldham currently play mainly on Sundays. SL currently play mainly on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. So it’s 1 game per week you mean. So probably December, avoiding friendlies and January if the Championship moved to winter when there wouldn’t be a clash?

[LeeF]

24 minutes ago, Click said:

And that is great for Oldham, what about other teams around them in the Championship and L1? 

Oldham currently look like a club that are in a positive place, and are growing now, which is good. Unfortunately, not all teams can say the same for the main part.

I would guess that most L1 clubs do not have shirt sponsorship that dwarfs the £12k central funding and probably the same albeit at a slightly different level for the Championship sides. Definitely an outlier

[Hopie]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Point of order - can you have an increasingly small pie?

I'm not here to teach English...

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

We've had promotion and relegation for those 20 years

 

I'm not here to teach history...

[Griff]

1 minute ago, Hopie said:

I'm not here to teach English...

Thank goodness.

[Taffy Tiger]

16 hours ago, Pulga said:

In every single country in the world except for England, Yes.

 

For some reason English Rugby League can't get their heads around sport in 2024. English Rugby League is not Football (soccer).

It is completely deluded in this day and age to believe your one-horse town deserves to be in the top flight. 

Hi Pulga 

 

I have never been so offended . What a ridiculous thing to say . I know for a fact that there are at least 3 horses in Cas !!!

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

45 minutes ago, Griff said:

Thank goodness.

He should take on board your advice Griff, like what I did.

[bobbruce]

5 hours ago, Roughyed Rats said:

Outside the elite, the semi-pro game is a disaster. £12,000 of central distributions for my club last season. No TV revenue. What would my club and other clubs really have to lose?

As a start you would lose Organised competitions,Referees and touch judges, being able to get insurance for players.

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, sentoffagain2 said:

     Does anyone think that todays SL clubs are better than those of 20 years ago?.And with no relegation the standard apart from  the top half a dozen clubs will continue to regress.The Championship has been improving over the last 12 years more so when there was a chance of promotion.I am afraid that now it will also regress and fans will vote with their feet.There was a chance to expand the game and develop younger players with two SL divisions of 10 and a League 1 or championship below.But SL clubs don't want to give up SKY money for the long term good of the game.

Current SL clubs would absolutely destroy teams from 20 years ago. Simply on the basis that the young players coming through are generally so much more professional than they were then. 

[Hello]

7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Association football ran an elected league system for decades till it grew so financially and numerically massive it could afford standards based P/R across 11 tiers of ever increasing numbers. It doesn't have its equivalents of Hunslet or Swinton anywhere near its equivalents of Southampton or Hull City.

Cricket has quite literally a major counties only league. The second division being introduced to split the number of red ball matches being played by those special 18 counties who otherwise all compete on the same level.

Union only went pro and had "proper" leagues in the relatively recent past. Even then, in England it is heading to a closed top/top 2 tiers - In Wales, Scotland and Ireland it already is like that.

Rugby League is the prime example of a competition set up specifically for one type of club, "professionals"! We've never had a "pyramid" because we've always had a clear distinction between the amateur and "professional" clubs. For the past 25 years, if not the past 35 years, the sport has grappled with whether there should be a distinction between the fully professional and semi professional levels too.

Been one hell of a long time since football didn't have promotion and relegation between the top four tiers. Now, of course, autumatic p and r goes much deeper than the fourth tier. I still though appreciate the point about RL with the drop off below TBF

Edited April 9 by Hello

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Hello said:

Been one hell of a long time since football didn't have promotion and relegation between the top four tiers

Its not even 40 years since they got rid of election to the Football League. They are rich enough across the board to have more clubs in their acceptable minimum standards. 

[Hello]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not even 40 years since they got rid of election to the Football League. They are rich enough across the board to have more clubs in their acceptable minimum standards. 

I agree with you on those points.  They still had something to play for though for most of the season for nearly every team across the 92  teams, other than the bottom few in the old fourth division.  There will always be dead rubbers, but far many more when you take away the threat of relegation on the field of play.  There will also always be a decrease in motivation (eg why would London bother spending money to compete), interest (why should I go to watch my team try and win the league when even if we win it I already know we will just be stuck there next season) which in my opinion eats down at a sport from the top, isolating fans

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Hello said:

I agree with you on those points.  They still had something to play for though for most of the season for nearly every team across the 92  teams, other than the bottom few in the old fourth division.  There will always be dead rubbers, but far many more when you take away the threat of relegation on the field of play.  There will also always be a decrease in motivation (eg why would London bother spending money to compete), interest (why should I go to watch my team try and win the league when even if we win it I already know we will just be stuck there next season) which in my opinion eats down at a sport from the top, isolating fans

When we have 92 teams capable of being in Super League we can have that, currently we don't. London going up replacing Wakefield despite being so bad is all the vindication the new system needs.

[Hello]

29 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

When we have 92 teams capable of being in Super League we can have that, currently we don't. London going up replacing Wakefield despite being so bad is all the vindication the new system needs.

The specific number of 92 teams irrelevant in this case obviously.  Can't agree with the broader point with all due respect. Get promoted against the odds in a scrappy win and then  fight for your life in the new higher tier, that's proper sport to me.  Get promoted and know that you are damned from the outset due to a spreadsheet? What a massive turn off

[HawkMan]

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not even 40 years since they got rid of election to the Football League. They are rich enough across the board to have more clubs in their acceptable minimum standards. 

For justification of P+R , and how it involves fans and keeps things interesting you only need to study the current EPL + EFL tables.

In EPL, IMO only Fulham and Bournemouth can mentally get to the beach with nowt to play for.

In the Championship, Rotherham ( relegated) Cardiff, Bristol City, Sunderland and Watford have nowt to play for.

In League 1 , it's Carlisle ( relegated) Northampton,  Wigan, Exeter,  Wycombe, Bristol Rovers,  Charlton and Reading with b****r all to play for.

In League 2, Bradford , Notts County,  Newport,  Accrington ( who the eck are they?), Tranmere and Swindon. So that's 21 out of 92 with a month and a half left,  and 71 still fighting for something.

BTW, I bet even  fans of teams at the bottom wouldn't have it any other way.

Edited April 10 by HawkMan

[JohnM]

There is no equivalence. There have been numerous posts explaining that soccer is different in every respect. Birmingham City have just announced a long- term plan to invest over £1 billion in a sports campus. Birmingham. city are 23rd out of 24th in the Championship and average crowds of around 20k. 

In comparison, ours is a Mickey Mouse sport with club financials at the lower end of the SME spectrum. We can only just put together a 12 team SuperLegue competition and even then, too many of those are living a hand to mouth existence, with unarguably only Saints,, Wigan, Catalans, Leeds and Wire operating sustainably.   IMG deal is our last chance .

Edited April 9 by JohnM

[sentoffagain2]

9 hours ago, Magic XIII said:

I hate comparing to Aus but NRL franchise based (with the glass ceiling) below which hugely popular, well supported, TV screened, vibrant Queensland and NSW Cup competitions, some teams twinned with NRL clubs. It's a mind set thing, with SL being seen as the be all and end all.

  Rugby League is the number 1 sport in Australia in this country RL is much lower down the pecking order .We have a following who attend games of less than 50k .Ballot SL supporters and over 95% will be for IMG with no relegation.Ballot the Championship and League i supporters and 95% or more would be against them.

[Pulga]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

There is no equivalence. There have been numerous posts explaining that soccer is different in every respect. Birmingham City have just announced a long- term plan to invest over £1 billion in a sports campus. Birmingham. city are 23rd out of 24th in the Championship and average crowds of around 20k. 

In comparison, ours is a Mickey Mouse sport with club financials at the lower end of the SME spectrum. We can only just put together a 12 team SuperLegue competition and even then, too many of those are living a hand to mouth existence, with unarguably only Saints,, Wigan, Catalans, Leeds and Wire operating sustainably.   IMG deal is our last chance .

I was just thinking that this is the last chance.

I have been saying for 5+ years that Super Rugby and Rugby Union in Australia was dead. Not dying but already dead. It's just the life support that needs to be switched off.

I think English Rugby League is very close to where Super Rugby/RA was 5 years ago. 

[bobbruce]

9 hours ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Rugby League is the number 1 sport in Australia in this country RL is much lower down the pecking order .We have a following who attend games of less than 50k .Ballot SL supporters and over 95% will be for IMG with no relegation.Ballot the Championship and League i supporters and 95% or more would be against them.

Where do you get the 50,000 figure from?  Leeds, Wigan,Saints,Hull,Catalan and Wire all have either over or about 10,000 home fans who attend games that’s 60,000 just with those 6 clubs. 

[Archie Gordon]

10 hours ago, JohnM said:

... IMG deal is our last chance .

Hmmm. Oh dear.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

7 hours ago, Pulga said:

I was just thinking that this is the last chance.

I have been saying for 5+ years that Super Rugby and Rugby Union in Australia was dead. Not dying but already dead. It's just the life support that needs to be switched off.

I think English Rugby League is very close to where Super Rugby/RA was 5 years ago. 

Rugby league has been dying or dead in this country for the last fifty years if you believe what you read. It's still here. Trust me, it could survive relegating Hull, Leeds, Warrington, whoever. Locking in the same teams who in your opinion have put it on life support will make no difference whatsoever.

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Worzel said:

We've had promotion and relegation for those 20 years, so it's clearly not a factor in quality improvement by your own measure. The reason we're implementing all the IMG changes is precisely because the old ways (not just around promotion and relegation) clearly weren't working. 

 

Agreed but then be radical with the changes, wipe the slate clean and look at the game as a whole not just one section.

What we have now got with just a few tweaks is the 'licensing years' all over again, it is the same but with a different coat of paint. 

It is designed in such a way that after the initial introduction and settling period it will be impossible for clubs outside of the initial - chosen 12 - to ever rise to it, or for the incumbents to leave it.

The scoring system has been really thought about and is purposefully weighted to do exactly what the committee of the 'Framing the Future' did those years ago in choosing who would be the elite and who will be the onlookers. 

The licensed years did not last the test of time simply because those clubs on the outside were waning and the game in that section was struggling,  it needed rejuvenating and sensibility prevailed in 2015 when the licences were rescinded and P&R was reintroduced.

There are those (usually fans of SL clubs) who say the Championship can have a vibrant competition all of it's own, well that didn't prove to be the case in licencing it was dying a slow death in a dead end street, and it will do the same with IMG's methods. Licensing lasted 6 years 2009 to 2014 inclusive, if the same happens again and the Championship is going downhill by 2030 IMG should be confined to the history books as licencing was "tried and it didn't work".

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, bobbruce said:

Current SL clubs would absolutely destroy teams from 20 years ago. Simply on the basis that the young players coming through are generally so much more professional than they were then. 

Yes of course they would undoubtedly so, but is the game a better spectacle to watch under the present style and methods, absolutely not in my opinion.

It's like comparing clothing styles from modern times to years ago, Friday/Saturday nights people would get dressed up to go out and looked very smart, men in a suit, tie, polished shoes, ladies in a nice dress and high heels, compare that today to men with ripped jean's, T shirts with pictures or advertising something or other and trainers, and Ladies who in the main have forgot how to look feminine, the test of time doesn't always mean improvement Bob!

[Daft old hooker]

10 hours ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Rugby League is the number 1 sport in Australia in this country RL is much lower down the pecking order .We have a following who attend games of less than 50k .Ballot SL supporters and over 95% will be for IMG with no relegation.Ballot the Championship and League i supporters and 95% or more would be against them.

You have hit the nail when you talk about the difference in perception between fans of Championship teams and SL teams. I followed RL for years and it was always my number one sport until IMG.

As a fan of a championship team I no longer take any interest in SL and if the whole lot went bankrupt I wouldn’t care less but ultimately I don’t think anything will change so I will just keep going to watch the championship and not care about the rest.

[Roughyed Rats]

32 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

There are those (usually fans of SL clubs) who say the Championship can have a vibrant competition all of it's own, well that didn't prove to be the case in licencing it was dying a slow death in a dead end street, and it will do the same with IMG's methods. Licensing lasted 6 years 2009 to 2014 inclusive, if the same happens again and the Championship is going downhill by 2030 IMG should be confined to the history books as licencing was "tried and it didn't work".

I don't disagree with this Harry. Licensing was a disaster last time when we even saw crowds diminish in the top flight. It won't take long for people to realise they can't get into SL (Spreadsheet League as my football mates laughingly call it) and the history repeats itself. The only other viable option for RL without P&R is to completely separate the game into Summer and Winter competitions as per my earlier posts. What simply won't work is a fudged halfway house like we currently have. As it was during licensing, our sport is sadly a laughing stock.