Why does Kingston upon Hull have two top level teams?

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

The title just says it all really. 

Any explanations why?

Rifts like Everton/Liverpool or something less dramatic?

Thank you..

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

The title just says it all really. 

Any explanations why?

Rifts like Everton/Liverpool or something less dramatic?

Thank you..

Because it's a big city 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

Just now, Tre Cool said:

Because it's a big city 

So are Leeds and Bradford yet they do not. Especially named specifically for the city. I understand Hunslet, Holbeck are within 'Leeds' but there are not two team named specifically Leeds whereas there are two named for Hull. If that made sense. 

[Gomersall]

Because we can.

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

Why does wigan have two teams? Why does Wakefield have three? It's down to socio economic reasons. The difference with the hull situation is that they both have Hull in their name.

Edited April 15 by The Art of Hand and Foot

[Anita Bath]

Not only does wigan have two teams it also has two railway stations.

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

4 minutes ago, The Art of Hand and Foot said:

Why does wigan have two teams? Why does Wakefield have three?

There is not a second team using the Wigan name. Only one. The other team refers to Leigh as it represents the town of Leigh not the town of Wigan. Same goes for Wakefield. The other teams represent towns in the administrative area named after its principal settlement.

 

 

[Hopie]

It has two teams in the top division, at times it had one, and others nil.

Them's the breaks of sport, or at least they have been for most of our recent history.

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

7 minutes ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

There is not a second team using the Wigan name. Only one. The other team refers to Leigh as it represents the town of Leigh not the town of Wigan. Same goes for Wakefield. The other teams represent towns in the administrative area named after its principal settlement.

 

 

I had edited the post prior to your post saying the difference is that hull is used in their names. I live in Wigan borough so I know! Leigh is a borough of Wigan. So whenever they play each other I say 'town centre versus suburb'' just to wind them both up. 

Edited April 15 by The Art of Hand and Foot

[M j M]

1 hour ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

So are Leeds and Bradford yet they do not. Especially named specifically for the city. I understand Hunslet, Holbeck are within 'Leeds' but there are not two team named specifically Leeds whereas there are two named for Hull. If that made sense. 

The sort of Leeds identity we understand now wasn't really a thing until well after the second world war. Local areas played a much greater role in people's identity in the early days of the Northern Union. So this "only one has the name Leeds" thing really isn't a distinction that should be made - Hunslet and Leeds were two very powerful teams representing different parts of the city.

[Guest]

Bradford City used to be an RL team too. Bradford could've had two.

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

1 minute ago, Tre Cool said:

Bradford City used to be an RL team too. Bradford could've had two.

Oh yes. And Bradford Park Avenue too. Though Bradford City was Manningham though so is that like what M j M said about Leeds but just applicable for Bradford?

 

7 minutes ago, M j M said:

The sort of Leeds identity we understand now wasn't really a thing until well after the second world war. Local areas played a much greater role in people's identity in the early days of the Northern Union. So this "only one has the name Leeds" thing really isn't a distinction that should be made - Hunslet and Leeds were two very powerful teams representing different parts of the city.

[Barley Mow]

10 minutes ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

Oh yes. And Bradford Park Avenue too. Though Bradford City was Manningham though so is that like what M j M said about Leeds but just applicable for Bradford?

 

Yes - but Manningham moved to become an association football club early in their history.

Bradford has been a one club RL place for most of the sport's history.

For Leeds and Hunslet think Liverpool and Everton in football - everyone considers Everton a Liverpool club despite not having the city as part of its name.

In Leeds, the split was traditionally a geographic one (north/south of the river). Similar to the Hull east/west split.

Edited April 15 by Barley Mow

[meast]

Manningham RFC= Bradford City AFC 

Bradford RFC= Bradford & Bingley RUFC, Bradford(Park Avenue) AFC & Bradford Northern RLFC(Bradford Bulls)

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

7 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Yes - but Manningham moved to become an association football club very early in their history.

Bradford has been a one club RL place for most of the sport's history.

For Leeds and Hunslet think Liverpool and Everton in football - everyone considers Everton a Liverpool club despite not having the city as part of its name.

In Leeds, the split was traditionally a geographic one (north/south of the river). Similar to the Hull east/west 

Interesting. Thank you. 

[up the robins]

A little info about the East , West split for the two Hull clubs HKR actually started in the West of the city and actually played down the boulevard before fc did.

FC played from a few different venues and even had a period of playing out of East Hull.

HKR eventually saw the light and moved to the better side. 

Also the first kit colours FC wore was cherry and white stripes in there very early years.

Edited April 15 by up the robins

[eal]

At the moment I'm not sure Hull can lay claim to having two top-level teams.

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

5 hours ago, up the robins said:

 

HKR eventually saw the light and moved to the better side. 

What makes that the better side?

Are there reasons why Kingston-upon-Hull has those divisions besides the river disecting the city?

[Griff]

7 hours ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

Oh yes. And Bradford Park Avenue too. Though Bradford City was Manningham though so is that like what M j M said about Leeds but just applicable for Bradford?

 

Bradford split into a soccer club and a Northern Union club. Splitting into two Northern Union clubs would be less likely.

[Griff]

8 hours ago, The Art of Hand and Foot said:

Why does wigan have two teams? Why does Wakefield have three? It's down to socio economic reasons. The difference with the hull situation is that they both have Hull in their name.

Another example of confusing towns and cities with councils. Wakefield doesn't have three teams. Wigan doesn't have two. Hull has two. Leeds has two. Leeds used to have five.

[Gomersall]

6 hours ago, up the robins said:

A little info about the East , West split for the two Hull clubs HKR actually started in the West of the city and actually played down the boulevard before fc did.

FC played from a few different venues and even had a period of playing out of East Hull.

HKR eventually saw the light and moved to the better side. 

Also the first kit colours FC wore was cherry and white stripes in their very early years.

First I’ve ever heard of Rovers playing down Boulevard.

[JohnM]

11 hours ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

The title just says it all really. 

Any explanations why?

Rifts like Everton/Liverpool or something less dramatic?

Thank you..

Because it can't support three.

[Lowdesert]

From both websites, this is how both Hull clubs began.

The Early Years

Led by a certain Anthony Bradley, a group of ex-public school pupils, mainly from Rugby School but also from St Peter’s, York, Marlborough and Cheltenham, the Hull Football Club was formed late in 1865. Amongst the founders were Beevor Lambert, E.W.Wade, E.Waltham and W.H.H.Hutchinson as well as the five Scott brothers, sons of Rev. John Scott of St Mary’s. Two of them are known to have played in the early days of the Club. F.E. Scott also served as the President of Hull Football Club for a short period during its formative years. 

In a far cry from what became their traditional black and white, the early colours worn by Hull were of a striped cherry and white shirt with white flannels and a white cap, if worn. The first fixture arranged for the fledgling Hull FC was played out at Lincoln in early 1866 and further matches were arranged with clubs in Newark, Louth and St Peter’s School, York. It is clear that most of the very early matches were played as soccer games with 11 players each side, but it is not clear as to what rules actually governed these early contests but, generally, they were played out in accordance with home club rules, of which there was a great disparity. 

However, at the annual meeting in the George Hotel, Land of Green Ginger, on 20th October 1870, the decision was taken to formally adopt the rugby rules. Hull FC, like many clubs in their formative years, led a nomadic existence. Their first ground was at Woodgates Hall, North Ferriby, playing there for a short time from 1866. With the founding of new clubs in the far-off West Riding and in a measure designed to make it somewhat easier for those clubs to come and fulfill fixtures with Hull FC, the club obtained use of a ground at Selby, opposite the Londesborough Arms, to play some fixtures. 

In 1871, Hull moved on to play at the Rifle Barracks field in Anlaby Road, Hull, and it was at this time that they became the first Yorkshire club to attain membership of the fledgling Rugby Football Union. 

1877 saw the introduction of the Challenge Cup. Hull were regarded as favourites to win it but were beaten in the semi-finals by York. They did, however, reach the Final in 1884 but were beaten by Bradford.

Hull Football Club merged with Hull White Star in 1881 and after some years searching for a suitable location for a new, bigger, ground, they moved home in the autumn of 1895 to The Athletic Grounds in The Boulevard. Hull Kingston Rovers had been tenants there since January 1892 but could not afford the rental increase asked of them in 1895.

This is how Hull KR was formed

HULL KINGSTON ROVERS WERE FORMED IN 1882 BY A GROUP OF BOILERMAKERS AND STARTED LIFE AS KINGSTON AMATEURS PLAYING IN ALBERT STREET TO THE WEST OF THE CITY IN THE AUTUMN OF 1883.

1882

THE BEGINNING

Hull Kingston Rovers were formed in 1882, as Kingston Amateurs, by a group of young workers in the shipping industry in West Hull. They played their first season in 1883/84, wearing red jerseys with a blue band, on a very primitive rented ground off Albert Street (now Gillett Street) on Hessle Road. The ground was known as ‘Flag Edge Touch’ because on one side of the ground the touchline was denoted by flagstones, upon which spectators stood. In its early years the club played rugby union – there was only one code of rugby in those days.

Early progress was rapid; the team was successful, and it started to attract better players. The fixture list grew, and moves to better grounds meant that the club had six grounds in its first 12 years – all to the west of the River Hull. By the 1893/94 season, the club, by now known as Hull Kingston Rovers, was playing ‘out-of-town’ fixtures, had attracted its first ‘star player’ – England international back Sam Morfitt (pictured) – and was renting a ground at the new sports complex on the Boulevard. The club’s original nickname, ‘the Redbreasts’, because of the red breast area above a blue band on their original jerseys, developed to ‘Robin Redbreasts’ and then simply to ‘the Robins.’

1895 was a pivotal year for the club. Hull FC, the senior club in the city at that time playing in East Hull, had taken a liking to the Boulevard ground, and offered to pay a higher rent than Rovers could afford. This meant that Rovers were faced with a big choice – stay in the west of the city and try to compete with Hull FC, or move to the east of the city. The historic decision was taken to buy the old Southcoates ground on Craven Street, and the club has remained in East Hull ever since.

 

[Just Browny]

I think we sometimes argue that Catalans or London would be stronger if they had a nearby rival in the same division, because that competition might drive better performance and local interest.

As a relatively isolated city (compared to the West Yorkshire and NW conurbations), the two Hull sides have presumably benefited from the same sort of effect. And while Hull is a large, but not enormous, city, presumably the clubs enjoy support from some of the surrounding areas too.

[daz39]

Both proudly have Hull in their name but one set of fans sing 'We all hate Hull' ....... Weird lot over there.