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32 minutes ago, Damien said:

We already have it with 4 development style teams anyway, and a few more that have fell by the wayside because League 1 doesn't suit either heartland teams or development teams. NCL is a completely different setup with different aims. It is not a pathway to the professional game for any aspiring side, nor should it be.

But i don't see how it helps having a pro development league of such a low standard with no chance of climbing the leagues? At least if we have some decent northern sides in there the opposition standard will improve them?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

But i don't see how it helps having a pro development league of such a low standard with no chance of climbing the leagues? At least if we have some decent northern sides in there the opposition standard will improve them?

Who said they have no chance? The standard doesn't need to be any lower than the bottom half of League 1 and the development sides that we have. League 1 doesn't work as is with those decent northern sides, neither for those northern sides or development sides coming into the league.

Edited by Damien
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53 minutes ago, Damien said:

Who said they have no chance? The standard doesn't need to be any lower than the bottom half of League 1 and the development sides that we have. League 1 doesn't work as is with those decent northern sides, neither for those northern sides or development sides coming into the league.

So a development side wins League 1, having had a season of playing other low standard teams, goes up to the Championship, loses every game  by 80 points, goes down again.  What would stop that happening? Or are you saying no promotion?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

So a development side wins League 1, having had a season of playing other low standard teams, goes up to the Championship, loses every game  by 80 points, goes down again.  What would stop that happening? Or are you saying no promotion?

I would be applying minimum standards to the Championship and applying IMG style criteria. As such there would very likely to be no promotion for a number of years and by that time you'd expect such a league and its clubs to develop higher standards. A team that meets those standards very likely could build a Championship level team, as Toronto did.

Edited by Damien
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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Damien said:

I would be applying minimum standards to the Championship and applying IMG style criteria. As such there would very likely to be no promotion for a number of years and by that time you'd expect such a league and its clubs to develop higher standards. A team that meets those standards very likely could build a Championship level team, as Toronto did.

That's ridiculous, Applying the IMG plan any further will kill off all the teams in L1.

So knowing how RFL works -- they probably will do it!

How can any team in L1 [without a sugar daddy] improve their Grading numbers/Standards.  When they only receive approx. 10K CF per season and because L1 is the SO CALLED expansion league have the most travelling to do.

For most teams by the time you take out the Cornwall trip and maybe a Possible Bedford/Edinburgh or Dublin etc there wont be much of the 10K left and then you have to pay players etc.

Mind if Dublin were to put a team in [being in EU] then I guess they would have to pay all the travel cost like the French do for SL even though SL teams get 1.5 Million plus per year [a little bit more than the 10K] and could afford it.

Credit to Cornwall who have to do this every other week - Bedford as a new team might be good for Cornwall but Edinburgh might be pushing it a bit.

Edited by Derwent Parker
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Just now, Derwent Parker said:

That's ridiculous, Applying the IMG plan any further will kill off all the teams in L1.

So knowing how RFL works -- they probably will do it!

How can any team in L1 [without a sugar daddy] improve their numbers.  When they only receive approx. 10K CF per season and because L1 is the SO CALLED expansion league have the most travelling to do.

For most teams by the time you take out the Cornwall trip and maybe a Possible Bedford/Edinburgh or Dublin etc there wont be much of the 10K left and then you have to pay players etc.

Mind if Dublin were to put a team in [being in EU] then I guess they would have to pay all the travel cost like the French do for SL even though SL teams get 1.5 Million plus per year [a little bit more than the 10K] and could afford it.

Credit to Cornwall who have to do this every other week - Bedford as a new team might be good for Cornwall but Edinburgh might be pushing it a bit.

I said minimum standards and IMG style criteria to enter the Championship from a development style League 1. I have made no mention of what that would be. For some bizarre reason you are trying to apply things as they now to a hypothetical discussion about a development league.

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

I would be applying minimum standards to the Championship and applying IMG style criteria. As such there would very likely to be no promotion for a number of years and by that time you'd expect such a league and its clubs to develop higher standards. A team that meets those standards very likely could build a Championship level team, as Toronto did.

I think this gets to the crux of it. Toronto was a side of full time professionals from the get go with a £1mn+ budget - it was silly putting them into L1, they should have been straight into Championship (or even Superleague like Cats were).

But the expansion clubs we're now talking about now are a completely different kettle of fish. Basically non-heartland community clubs that want to start paying match fees to attract local interest. Such clubs just won't be able to compete with heartland clubs. So we need to keep them apart.

They won't be able to "grow" into competitiveness, they'll never be able to compete with the clubs that can easily access the heartland player pool. We know this, and that's ok, it's not defeatist to acknowledge. Even the two non-heartland areas with the deepest pool of players - London+SE and the North East can't produce competitive teams on their own.

So we need to move on from trying to create a pyramid, to having competitions that suit each group of club. The IMG changes are beginning this already, so let's just continue this. The professional structure should have three competitions:

Superleague 

RFL Championship  - Historic part-time clubs, plus expansion area clubs that can commit to the investment needed to ensure a reasonable level of competitiveness    

Southern Professional League -  Non-heartland clubs in the Southern half of England that pay match fees to attract interest.

If a club in the third group becomes popular enough locally to think about moving up, they can put together an application to do so. 

Let's create competitions that serve the different types of clubs we have, not try and squeeze the clubs into a structure for the sake of it.  

           

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1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think this gets to the crux of it. Toronto was a side of full time professionals from the get go with a £1mn+ budget - it was silly putting them into L1, they should have been straight into Championship (or even Superleague like Cats were).

But the expansion clubs we're now talking about now are a completely different kettle of fish. Basically non-heartland community clubs that want to start paying match fees to attract local interest. Such clubs just won't be able to compete with heartland clubs. So we need to keep them apart.

They won't be able to "grow" into competitiveness, they'll never be able to compete with the clubs that can easily access the heartland player pool. We know this, and that's ok, it's not defeatist to acknowledge. Even the two non-heartland areas with the deepest pool of players - London+SE and the North East can't produce competitive teams on their own.

So we need to move on from trying to create a pyramid, to having competitions that suit each group of club. The IMG changes are beginning this already, so let's just continue this. The professional structure should have three competitions:

Superleague 

RFL Championship  - Historic part-time clubs, plus expansion area clubs that can commit to the investment needed to ensure a reasonable level of competitiveness    

Southern Professional League -  Non-heartland clubs in the Southern half of England that pay match fees to attract interest.

If a club in the third group becomes popular enough locally to think about moving up, they can put together an application to do so. 

Let's create competitions that serve the different types of clubs we have, not try and squeeze the clubs into a structure for the sake of it.  

Bingo

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10 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

...

Southern Professional League -  Non-heartland clubs in the Southern half of England that pay match fees to attract interest.

If a club in the third group becomes popular enough locally to think about moving up, they can put together an application to do so.

...  

There isn't a set of clubs (or players or fans) waiting for this to happen. Who would be in this comp?

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

There isn't a set of clubs (or players or fans) waiting for this to happen. Who would be in this comp?

If there isn't, that's fine. Then we don't need a Southern Professional League.

But in the last decade or so there are 8-9 southern clubs that are, have been, or expressed an interest in being in a professional structure. Most have come a cropper due to the financial costs and morale damage of competing with the heartland teams. 

So what I'm proposing is how you'd do it if the appetite was there, as an alternative to sticking them into a nationwide L1, because we all know how that goes.    

Edited by Toby Chopra
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47 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think this gets to the crux of it. Toronto was a side of full time professionals from the get go with a £1mn+ budget - it was silly putting them into L1, they should have been straight into Championship (or even Superleague like Cats were).

But the expansion clubs we're now talking about now are a completely different kettle of fish. Basically non-heartland community clubs that want to start paying match fees to attract local interest. Such clubs just won't be able to compete with heartland clubs. So we need to keep them apart.

They won't be able to "grow" into competitiveness, they'll never be able to compete with the clubs that can easily access the heartland player pool. We know this, and that's ok, it's not defeatist to acknowledge. Even the two non-heartland areas with the deepest pool of players - London+SE and the North East can't produce competitive teams on their own.

So we need to move on from trying to create a pyramid, to having competitions that suit each group of club. The IMG changes are beginning this already, so let's just continue this. The professional structure should have three competitions:

Superleague 

RFL Championship  - Historic part-time clubs, plus expansion area clubs that can commit to the investment needed to ensure a reasonable level of competitiveness    

Southern Professional League -  Non-heartland clubs in the Southern half of England that pay match fees to attract interest.

If a club in the third group becomes popular enough locally to think about moving up, they can put together an application to do so. 

Let's create competitions that serve the different types of clubs we have, not try and squeeze the clubs into a structure for the sake of it.  

           

At the end of this season another 2 Heartland Part time teams are going down into L1 from Championship - because they did not want to increase Championship last season - So how would you get them to agree now apart from whichever 2 are coming down - as they will agree.

Thats why we are going to 3 x 12

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6 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

If there isn't, that's fine. Then we don't need a Southern Professional League.

But in the last decade or so there are 8-9 southern clubs that are, have been, or expressed an interest in being in a professional structure. Most have come a cropper due to the financial costs and morale damage of competing with the heartland teams. 

So what I'm proposing is how you'd do it if the appetite was there, as an alternative to sticking them into a nationwide L1, because we all know how that goes.    

Back when most of those teams came into L1 - they were getting about 75K each CF - which helped .

Having that reduced down to 10K is why the finances as seen some of the newer clubs leave/Fail - which was why Newcastle folded at end of last season as the drop from CH CF to L1 CF [pittance] is a disgrace.

Dont know which club you follow [have not looked into it] but how would your club manage on 10K?

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6 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

At the end of this season another 2 Heartland Part time teams are going down into L1 from Championship - because they did not want to increase Championship last season - So how would you get them to agree now apart from whichever 2 are coming down - as they will agree.

Thats why we are going to 3 x 12

There's a difference if the expansion of the Championship is to only add the heartland teams, which will renew rivalries, contain costs and be much more likely to be competitive.  We've had a bigger second tier before.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Gomersall said:

My take on growing the pot is everyone benefits not just a single team. That could be said for every club in the RFL leagues.

I agree in principle, however you grow the central pot by having a lot of value adding smaller pots so to speak.

The wider spread the game, with the number of good clubs that don't rely on centralised funds helps grow the centralised funds pot.

 

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5 hours ago, Damien said:

We already have it with 4 development style teams anyway, and a few more that have fell by the wayside because League 1 doesn't suit either heartland teams or development teams. NCL is a completely different setup with different aims. It is not a pathway to the professional game for any aspiring side, nor should it be.

I disagree, it should be.

Theres a myth that you can't mix amateur (not getting paid) and semi pro(getting a match fee) in the same league, so you end up with the crazy situation between league 1 and NCL.

Theres no reason a team can't go upto league1 and remain amateur or there shouldn't be an issue with a team dropping from league 1 and paying a match fee to players.

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1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

Back when most of those teams came into L1 - they were getting about 75K each CF - which helped .

Having that reduced down to 10K is why the finances as seen some of the newer clubs leave/Fail - which was why Newcastle folded at end of last season as the drop from CH CF to L1 CF [pittance] is a disgrace.

Dont know which club you follow [have not looked into it] but how would your club manage on 10K?

Why do you expect central funding to fund a club. Whats wrong with sponsorship, bums on seats, food and drink in peoples hands, merchandise being sold etc..

The clubs had years of central funding where they could have grown commercially but some clubs chose not to.

 

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1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

Back when most of those teams came into L1 - they were getting about 75K each CF - which helped .

Having that reduced down to 10K is why the finances as seen some of the newer clubs leave/Fail - which was why Newcastle folded at end of last season as the drop from CH CF to L1 CF [pittance] is a disgrace.

Dont know which club you follow [have not looked into it] but how would your club manage on 10K?

It's not the funding cuts that have caused almost all non-heartland teams fail, that's shown by the fact that none of the heartland teams have failed. (And Oxford and Hemel disappeared while most of the funding was still in place.)

The failures are due to the the impossibility of building competitive part-time teams from non-heartland players, which then repeatedly sends the teams down the same dead ends like bussing in a team on match days which always end up the same way.

To compete in the professional tiers from outside the heartland you need serious money - enough to pay at least a core of full time players - and 75k doesn't even touch the sides.         

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, yipyee said:

I disagree, it should be.

Theres a myth that you can't mix amateur (not getting paid) and semi pro(getting a match fee) in the same league, so you end up with the crazy situation between league 1 and NCL.

Theres no reason a team can't go upto league1 and remain amateur or there shouldn't be an issue with a team dropping from league 1 and paying a match fee to players.

No, I don't care about mixing amateur and paid. That's not the issue, the issue is that no one wants what you want and it suits no one.

The NCL serve a different purpose full stop. It's full of heartland teams from towns that have professional clubs who have no aspiration or need to be anything else. They are also quite content playing each other and NCL clubs wouldn't want to be playing development clubs miles away.  Development clubs face as many barriers joining the NCL as they do coming into League 1, probably more so. 

Edited by Damien
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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

 Development clubs face as many barriers joining the NCL as they do coming into League 1, probably more so. 

Correct - The minimum standards for joining the NCL are very different to League One, most League One clubs, development or otherwise wouldn't fulfil them 

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46 minutes ago, yipyee said:

I disagree, it should be.

Theres a myth that you can't mix amateur (not getting paid) and semi pro(getting a match fee) in the same league, so you end up with the crazy situation between league 1 and NCL.

Theres no reason a team can't go upto league1 and remain amateur or there shouldn't be an issue with a team dropping from league 1 and paying a match fee to players.

It’s common knowledge that a certain “community” team from the west of Hull have been paying their players for years.

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1 hour ago, yipyee said:

I agree in principle, however you grow the central pot by having a lot of value adding smaller pots so to speak.

The wider spread the game, with the number of good clubs that don't rely on centralised funds helps grow the centralised funds pot.

 

The "so called good clubs" do rely on CF - thats why they wont go to 14 teams because they will have to share the CF with 2 more clubs!

If 12 teams in SL is correct then they should play 22 games - but they dont they have Loops therefore it should be 14 games - no loops

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2 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

There's a difference if the expansion of the Championship is to only add the heartland teams, which will renew rivalries, contain costs and be much more likely to be competitive.  We've had a bigger second tier before.

 

 

 

Yes I think the old 70s system of 2 x 16 was ideal.  - 30 games each.

If 30 is too many? then do a reverse loop system so it gets to 28 or whatever  - or just stop the play offs and just have the leagues.  Much more interesting playing everyone twice instead of some 4 times - then you might get them in playoffs /cup etc - BORING

But as we all know  SL wont increase due to greed per club then stay at 12 and have a larger Championship with reverse loops?

Or we can just wait until we have 16 "A" grades - Because as we all know IMG said ALL "A" grades WILL BE in SL - so lets wait until we have 16 "A"s ,   But again we all know this wont happen because as soon as IMG suggest a 16 team SL,  IMG will be kicked into touch

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