The Masked Poster Posted January 18 Posted January 18 13 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said: That really highlights the monumental size of football over other sports doesn't it. Man City sell 1.3million shirts in a season, a rugby league team sells, maybe, 15-20,000 or so. I doubt they sell that many tbh. I do remember in the late 90's a friend who was "in the know" told me that Bradford had sold "well over 20000 replica shirts" and that was seen as very good numbers.
JohnM Posted January 18 Posted January 18 I just try to avoid pointless speculation about these things. Given that the soccer world is mired in such speculation across the piece from transfer speculation right through to players failed marriages, that's next to impossible, I realise. Given the complex nature of the allegations and investigations and given that the City Football Group is a highly professional international commercial organisation, I feel sure that any investigation into their affairs will be scrupulous in the extreme. The damage and cost to the UK soccer authorities of getting this in any way wrong will be immense. 1
HawkMan Posted January 23 Posted January 23 (edited) Anyone doubting the new CL format has had to re-evaluate, it's been a sensational success. Plenty to play for on the final match day next week. The amazing Benfica v Barcelona game. The inaugural Champions League league phase is set for an exciting final day with 25 of the 36 teams still awaiting their fate. All 18 games will be played at the same time - at 20:00 GMT on Wednesday, 29 January, with 16 matches having something on the line. Manchester City are in major danger of elimination after Wednesday's collapse at Paris St-Germain, while Liverpool are through, Arsenal are almost there and Aston Villa and Celtic - who meet - are somewhere in between. The 'as it stands' table will be constantly updating with teams' hopes potentially relying on other results. It marks the first season of the new format, compared with the old four-team groups with two going through - where sometimes there was nothing to play for by the end. "It's been brilliant, instead of the borefest we've had for years on the last matchday," wrote ex-Liverpool defender Jamie Carragher on social media. "Next week will be sensational." How many teams qualify for the knockout phase? First, here's a reminder of what the 36 league-phase teams are aiming for. Those finishing in the top eight automatically progress to the last 16, where they will be seeded. They will await the winners of eight two-legged knockout play-off ties featuring the clubs ranked from ninth to 24th. Those finishing between ninth and 16th will be seeded and face a team placed 17th to 24th, with the advantage of playing the second leg at home. The clubs 25th or lower are eliminated and do not gain entry to the Europa League. The play-off ties take place mid-February, with the last-16 matches in the first two weeks of March. Which teams have qualified - and who is out? Top-eight guaranteed: Liverpool, Barcelona Top-24 guaranteed (at least): Arsenal, Inter Milan, Atletico Madrid, AC Milan, Atalanta, Bayer Leverkusen, Aston Villa, Monaco, Feyenoord, Lille, Brest, Borussia Dortmund, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Juventus, Celtic Uncertain of progression: PSV, Club Brugge, Benfica, PSG, Sporting, Stuttgart, Manchester City, Dinamo Zagreb, Shakhtar Donetsk Eliminated: Bologna, Sparta Prague, Leipzig, Girona, Red Star Belgrade, Sturm Graz, Salzburg, Slovan Bratislava, Young Boys What do the British teams need to go through? Manchester City have a very simple permutation. If they beat Club Brugge at home they will go into the play-off round. If they fail to win they will be eliminated. They cannot reach the last 16 automatically. Aston Villa are guaranteed at least a play-off place. A win at home to Celtic would give them a good chance of finishing in the top eight, though they would need one of five teams above them to slip up. But also four teams are only below Villa on goal difference so a big win for one of those sides could see them overtake Villa too. Celtic are only one point behind Villa so could conceivably finish in the top eight, but they would need to win and for a lot of things to happen above them. Arsenal - away at Girona - are all but in the last 16 as they sit three points clear of the play-offs with a much better goal difference than any team on 13 points. Liverpool are one of two teams, along with Barcelona, who know they are in the last 16 already, and will be guaranteed a top-two place. Bayern Munich and Real Madrid are among the giants in the positions between ninth and 24th hoping for things to go their way to end up in the top eight. Does it matter where you finish in top eight ? Definitely. Where a team finishes in the league table determines which opponents they face and when they can face them in the knockout stage. Take Liverpool for example. The Reds are now guaranteed a top-two finish, which gives them a seeded route through to the last 16. That means the Reds will face a team who finished 15th, 16th, 17th or 18th in the last 16. The identity of the team will not be known until after the play-offs, but the pre-determined draw means it will be the winner of the ties involving teams that finish in those four places. Liverpool cannot face the team who finishes second in the league phase - or whoever finishes top if they are overtaken on the final matchday - until the final. By contrast, a team that finishes seventh or eighth could face a side that had finished just below them in the league phase - in ninth or 10th. For more on who plays who in the play-offs, keep reading... What is the difference between finishing ninth and 24th? Teams that finish between ninth and 16th will be seeded in the knockout phase play-off draw. It means they will face a team that finishes between 17th to 24th. Who the seeded teams will face will be determined by a draw but clubs will only have two possible opponents. For example, the teams that finish 11th and 12th are paired together and will play a team that finishes 21st or 22nd. Another bracket will pair the teams that finish ninth and 10th in the table, playing either the team that was 23rd or 24th. The two pairs of fixtures will be drawn into opposite halves of the overall draw and the seeded teams will play the second leg of the play-off at home as a reward for finishing higher than their opponent in the league phase. Unlike in previous years, teams eliminated from the Champions League - either in the group phase or via losing a play-off - will not drop into the Europa League. The draw for the play-off round is on 31 January at 11:00 GMT. Has this format worked? One of Uefa's reasons for changing to this format was so "every game counts". It said the format "will ensure that any result has the potential to dramatically change a team's position, right up to and including the very last matchday". And so it has panned out with only two dead rubbers (Sturm Graz v Leipzig and Young Boys v Red Star Belgrade) and 16 games with something on the line. There are several games where both clubs are battling for the same goal, like Manchester City v Club Brugge, Stuttgart v PSG, Brest v Real Madrid and Inter Milan v Monaco. It could lead to enjoyable mayhem for fans with some teams potentially being affected by more than 10 other games. Aston Villa, for example, could overtake six teams or be overtaken by 15 teams (albeit not all 15) - including opponents Celtic. Another reason Uefa gave for the new format was to ensure more matches between the top teams in the initial stages of the tournament. This year has seen Real Madrid face Borussia Dortmund and Liverpool in repeats of three recent finals, and Barcelona play Bayern Munich, while Paris St-Germain have faced Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, Bayern Munich and Manchester City. What is financial impact of finishing where? Failing to qualify for the next round means taking a financial hit. Every club in the league phase gets 18.62m euros for participating, with performance bonuses of 2.1m euros per win and 700,000 euros per draw. Each position in the table is worth 275,000 euros, too. So the team that finishes 36th earns that much, 35th claims 550,000 euros through to 9.9m euros for the table-toppers. Teams finishing first to eighth also earn a 2m euros bonus, with teams finishing ninth to 16th getting 1m euros. The prize money for reaching each knockout round is shown below. Uefa has also introduced a "value pillar" that splits the broadcast revenue. This again increases depending on your finishing position in the league phase. That is before matchday revenue and other factors are taken into account. In other words, it is fairly costly to be eliminated early. Champions League knockouts prize money Stage Prize money (per club) Knockout round play-offs £840,000 Last-16 £9.3m Quarter-finals £10.6m Semi-finals £12.7m Runner-up £15.6m Winner £21.1m Source: Uefa Edited January 23 by HawkMan 1
gingerjon Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Was talking to Tiny Ginger about this yesterday and we both had to admit that, this season at least, we were wrong. It’s working well and the football has been interesting. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
OriginalMrC Posted January 23 Posted January 23 I've been enjoying it. I have found myself watching more games because there's been some really interesting matches thrown out in the fixtures.
JonM Posted January 23 Posted January 23 On 18/01/2025 at 10:04, The Masked Poster said: I doubt they sell that many tbh. I do remember in the late 90's a friend who was "in the know" told me that Bradford had sold "well over 20000 replica shirts" and that was seen as very good numbers. Meanwhile, at Catalans Dragons: Christophe Levy told L’Independant: “We were pleasantly surprised by the store’s revenue in December. The club has never sold so many jerseys in 20 years, the first 500 have gone. We are out of stock, we ordered some, but the delivery and manufacturing times are long.”
JohnM Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Shock waves struck the whole of British football this week when it was announced that both Tottenham Hotspur and Manchester United won. 2
Father Gascoigne Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 23/01/2025 at 19:49, HawkMan said: Anyone doubting the new CL format has had to re-evaluate, it's been a sensational success. Plenty to play for on the final match day next week. While I prefer the single-table format and championed it when it was announced, I've found myself watching less than usual. I'm looking forward to the knockouts but have only caught highlights of the group stage. One issue with this format is that there is too much unpredictability and change matchday-to-matchday. You can go from 21st to 9th in one round. Apart from obvious marquee matchups like PSG x Man City, most of the other matches this week felt like noise. They mostly all had big ramifications for the standings, which paradoxically made them feel small. And because the group stage is only a lead-in to the knockouts, the great benefit of the single table--being able to judge the attractiveness/importance of matches--is missing. I can't see the associations voting for it, but I feel it would be best if the 36-team group stage was pared down to something more modest.
HawkMan Posted January 24 Posted January 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Father Gascoigne said: While I prefer the single-table format and championed it when it was announced, I've found myself watching less than usual. I'm looking forward to the knockouts but have only caught highlights of the group stage. One issue with this format is that there is too much unpredictability and change matchday-to-matchday. You can go from 21st to 9th in one round. Apart from obvious marquee matchups like PSG x Man City, most of the other matches this week felt like noise. They mostly all had big ramifications for the standings, which paradoxically made them feel small. And because the group stage is only a lead-in to the knockouts, the great benefit of the single table--being able to judge the attractiveness/importance of matches--is missing. I can't see the associations voting for it, but I feel it would be best if the 36-team group stage was pared down to something more modest. Eh? You do realise the reasons you gave for not liking it are the very reasons it's being judged a success. Unpredictability, moving up and down table regularly, and meaningful matches until the end. The positioning in the table is pretty important too. If for example Man City end up sneaking in at 23rd, they'll end up with the 2nd in table team in the last 16, if they win the play off, currently Barcelona. It'll be fun fun fun next week. Edited January 24 by HawkMan
Father Gascoigne Posted January 24 Posted January 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, HawkMan said: Eh? You do realise the reasons you gave for not liking it are the very reasons it's being judged a success. Unpredictability, moving up and down table regularly, and meaningful matches until the end. The positioning in the table is pretty important too. If for example Man City end up sneaking in at 23rd, they'll end up with the 2nd in table team in the last 16, if they win the play off, currently Barcelona. It'll be fun fun fun next week. I know it's seeded in the knockouts. I was one of the very few people on the internet that was in favour of it when it was first announced to much derision years ago, so I'm very familiar with how it all works. I'm not for a second saying they should go back to the old format. And I'm not denying that other people are enjoying it and deeming it a success. It's just my personal preference. I like a sense of order to my sports leagues. With this format, I don't get that. It's too bloated, has even more mismatches than before, and requires too much mental work to comprehend a round's fixtures in any big-picture context. Sure, this club might climb into the top 8, but without doing the mental calculations of how the other 17 fixtures affect the rest of the ladder, it's not easy to grasp the importance of any given fixture. I may be alone in this, but it's hard to build any meaningful narratives from it as it's all over the place. To top it off, most of it is just posturing for seeding. In the NFL, seeding is really important, as the number one seed will play all their single-legged knockouts at home. In the CL, where ties in the knockouts will be two-legged, they may as well not make any difference. There is much less advantage of playing the second leg at home now that the away goals rule has been binned. In essence we've spent six months eliminating 12 teams and not much else. I don't know if you follow the NBA, but it shares many of the elements with the new UCL. If you do, you'll know how meaningless this league phase turns out to be in hindsight once the knockouts kick in. It all had the veneer of importance while it was taking place, but it was paper thin. Once people cotton on to that, as they have in the NBA, interest in the group stage will stagnate and drop off, as it does in the NBA. I like the single-table format. It's the way to go. I just feel they need to improve on it in the future by paring down the number of teams and thereby increasing the number of evenly-matched fixtures. This will make it easier to follow and provide more matches worth tuning in to. Edited January 24 by Father Gascoigne
sam4731 Posted January 24 Posted January 24 10 hours ago, HawkMan said: Eh? You do realise the reasons you gave for not liking it are the very reasons it's being judged a success. Unpredictability, moving up and down table regularly, and meaningful matches until the end. The positioning in the table is pretty important too. If for example Man City end up sneaking in at 23rd, they'll end up with the 2nd in table team in the last 16, if they win the play off, currently Barcelona. It'll be fun fun fun next week. I think the main issue that's been highlighted here, which I'm inclined to agree with, is that it's such a long lead in to just get to the knockouts which in themselves drag out too. The Champions League is such a drawn out format, and it does feel like it's really bloated this year. 1 1
gingerjon Posted January 25 Posted January 25 10 hours ago, sam4731 said: I think the main issue that's been highlighted here, which I'm inclined to agree with, is that it's such a long lead in to just get to the knockouts which in themselves drag out too. The Champions League is such a drawn out format, and it does feel like it's really bloated this year. Eight games, which all seem to end up counting for something, no teams getting a second chance in the Europa League, and then four knock out rounds including the final. That doesn't feel particularly bloated. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
HawkMan Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) 11 hours ago, sam4731 said: I think the main issue that's been highlighted here, which I'm inclined to agree with, is that it's such a long lead in to just get to the knockouts which in themselves drag out too. The Champions League is such a drawn out format, and it does feel like it's really bloated this year. Why doesn't the ridiculous UEFA follow the example of Rugby League to have a tournament that people are actually interested in and broadcasters want to televise. Continental teams paying expenses of teams from Blighty to play over there, that'll naturally deter European wannabes from entering, then 16 team tournament, 4x 4 groups, top two into quarter finals, semis and final played as "Magic" style weekends, possibly in Hull, sorted. Edited January 25 by HawkMan 1
HawkMan Posted January 25 Posted January 25 51 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Eight games, which all seem to end up counting for something, no teams getting a second chance in the Europa League, and then four knock out rounds including the final. That doesn't feel particularly bloated. Agreed, but apparently having too many games with a lot riding on them is causing some to feel a bit ..erm overwhelmed.
sam4731 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 1 minute ago, gingerjon said: Eight games, which all seem to end up counting for something, no teams getting a second chance in the Europa League, and then four knock out rounds including the final. That doesn't feel particularly bloated. Those 2 extra games are stretched out over another couple of months and it's 5 knockout rounds not 4. Not sure what getting relegated to the Europa League has to do with the format of the Champions League.
gingerjon Posted January 25 Posted January 25 7 minutes ago, sam4731 said: Those 2 extra games are stretched out over another couple of months and it's 5 knockout rounds not 4. Not sure what getting relegated to the Europa League has to do with the format of the Champions League. You don’t understand what removing something that was a part of the old format has to do with the format? Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
HawkMan Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) 22 minutes ago, sam4731 said: Those 2 extra games are stretched out over another couple of months and it's 5 knockout rounds not 4. Not sure what getting relegated to the Europa League has to do with the format of the Champions League. Previous, teams with a possible but very unlikely chance of progression in CL would maybe subconsciously accept they've got the Europa as a fall back, so not quite give it their all. Now there's no safety net, so it's all guns blazing to stay in Europe. Edited January 25 by HawkMan
sam4731 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 10 minutes ago, gingerjon said: You don’t understand what removing something that was a part of the old format has to do with the format? But the competition feeling bloated has nothing to do with teams exiting it, whether that is to nothing or another competition.
gingerjon Posted January 25 Posted January 25 8 minutes ago, HawkMan said: Previous, teams with a possible but very unlikely chance of progression in CL would maybe subconsciously accept they've got the Europa as a fall back, so not quite give it their all. Now there's no safety net, so it's all guns blazing to stay in Europe. Bingo. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
HawkMan Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) The fact that ONLY TWO games of the last round are dead rubbers is PROOF that the format is not bloated. It may change next year who knows. Perhaps the top 8 will be 4 pts clear of the 9th placed , and the 24th 4pts clear of the 25th. Even then the placings for the seedings in the play off draw are up for grabs. Looking at the table, Man City , depending if they finish 24th, or 23rd, or 22nd, or even 20th which is possible easily, could be the difference between playing Barcelona in the last 16, or someone like Feyenoord or Monaco, assuming they win the play off. It's impossible to tell, there's too many variables, AND THAT'S WHAT'S IRKING SOME. It's a bit complicated. Edited January 25 by HawkMan
HawkMan Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) Just to ensure that people having trouble following the format will definitely have their heads explode, here's the format for play off round and last 16. To elaborate, for eg, the 24th and 23rd placed teams put in a bowl and drawn out against 9th and 10th teams put in another bowl. PLAY OFF ROUND. A) 17th or 18th v 15th or 16th B) 23 or 24 v 9 or 10 C) 21 or 22 v 11 or 12 D) 19 or 20 v 13 or 14 E) 20 or 19 v 14 or 13 F) 22 or 21 v 12 or 11 G) 24 or 23 v 10 or 9 H) 18 or 17 v 16 or 15 LAST 16 Winner A v 1st or 2nd Winner B v 7 or 8 Winner C v 5 or 6 Winner D v 3 or 4 Winner E v 4 or 3 Winner F v 6 or 5 Winner G v 8 or 7 Winner H v 2 or 1 Edited January 25 by HawkMan
The Hallucinating Goose Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Whenever I watch women's football, I always think about Bend It Like Beckham, when Keira Knightley says you can't play professionally in this country but you can in America, and the film essentially shows that top level women's football at that time in England was amateur teams playing at mens non-league grounds. I've just watched an entertaining encounter between Chelsea and Arsenal that saw Chelsea come out on top with a late penalty to take it 1-0, in front of 34,000 fans at Stamford Bridge. Wow! Women's football has come on a bit from that film 25 years or so ago hasn't it?! Another story in the women's game today has announced that Chelsea are potentially going to pay a world record transfer fee for a player in America of £900,000. Okay, nowhere near the Men's game obviously, but 20 years ago, would you have thought that a women's team would ever have the best part of a million to spend on one single player. An entire team wouldn't have been worth anywhere close to that figure back at the turn of the century. The women's game has grown so well in such a short period of time!
JonM Posted January 27 Posted January 27 (edited) "Interesting" statto fact from the Bundesliga 2. Before this weekend, with more than half of the season gone, FC Magdeburg were top of the table. They have yet to win a home game in the league. They are also the only team in the league without a home win. Edited January 27 by JonM 3
OriginalMrC Posted January 27 Posted January 27 On 26/01/2025 at 14:40, The Hallucinating Goose said: Whenever I watch women's football, I always think about Bend It Like Beckham, when Keira Knightley says you can't play professionally in this country but you can in America, and the film essentially shows that top level women's football at that time in England was amateur teams playing at mens non-league grounds. I've just watched an entertaining encounter between Chelsea and Arsenal that saw Chelsea come out on top with a late penalty to take it 1-0, in front of 34,000 fans at Stamford Bridge. Wow! Women's football has come on a bit from that film 25 years or so ago hasn't it?! Another story in the women's game today has announced that Chelsea are potentially going to pay a world record transfer fee for a player in America of £900,000. Okay, nowhere near the Men's game obviously, but 20 years ago, would you have thought that a women's team would ever have the best part of a million to spend on one single player. An entire team wouldn't have been worth anywhere close to that figure back at the turn of the century. The women's game has grown so well in such a short period of time! Only a matter of time before womens football becomes the second largest sport in the country (after mens football).
Hanover XIII Posted January 27 Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said: Only a matter of time before womens football becomes the second largest sport in the country (after mens football). Agreed.
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