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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Now I can say this at last. The game is a laughing stock.

Small time sport for small time people. Enjoy.

Sad but true

 

What a waste of a wonderful sport.

 

The irony is that rugby league has such a tradition of progressiveness.

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Sad but true

 

What a waste of a wonderful sport.

 

The irony is that rugby league has such a tradition of progressiveness.

It's not true. RL is not a laughing stock because of this. Most people are not bothered.

 

It's a point RL fans use when a decision goes against their thinking.

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If p&r comes back could we not give the promoted team an exemption from relegation for say a season or two?

What would happen to teams who have won the championship division two or whatever you want to call it? Where's the fairness and justice in that? You can't have promotion without relegation.

On the other has and you could do that until everyone is in the first division: jobs a good un

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I'm no pessimist Martyn, just a realist. How can you expect clubs to take part in two play off competitions at the end of a gruelling season? They'd still be playing while others are starting pre season training. There are too many grey areas for it to be successful and the three year period has proved unpopular with the fans during the disastrous licensing system. Crowds are down because the game has become sterile and dull. It needs reinvigorating and the RFL have come up with the answer in my opinion.

How do you know that this is the case?

Are you saying that games at the bigfellas stadium are sterile and dull?

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It's not true. RL is not a laughing stock because of this. Most people are not bothered.

 

It's a point RL fans use when a decision goes against their thinking

I know

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The top 8 will all remove 4 games against the two weakest teams in the league and replace them with 7 games against top 8 teams. That is one way where more money will be brought into the equation.

 

I see what you are saying, But it's based on playing more fixtures against the same clubs, and Fans turning up in bigger numbers for these fixtures. I see that it might work but it equally might not, and are these bottom 4 clubs really going to have that sort of impact on the middle league ?.

 

I'm not shooting you down here,  Its just none of it is known.

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What it would do is raise the standard of the second division....... how its funded is another matter....

But raising the standard of the 2nd tier does nothing for player production and does nothing to strengthen the top tier, nor the England team. Those were the claims made by the poster I was responding to.

Fundamentally, we do not have enough money for the elite game. And yet our response is to further dilute the small resources we do have. It makes no sense.

Edited by nadera78

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Is the first SL clubs meeting re. Governance today or next Tuesday? They meet on Friday re. Restructuring.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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I see what you are saying, But it's based on playing more fixtures against the same clubs, and Fans turning up in bigger numbers for these fixtures. I see that it might work but it equally might not, and are these bottom 4 clubs really going to have that sort of impact on the middle league ?.

 

I'm not shooting you down here,  Its just none of it is known.

No, but none of it will ever be 'known' they need to be calculated risks.

 

Some analysis on the repeat fixtures when we were at 12 teams would support the point I made I expect, but there will always be quirks due to the local derbies etc.

 

The repeat fixtures is a potential issue, without question, but if I'm honest in the absence of more strong teams, repeat fixtures are probably the way to go.

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Martyn

 

You keep quoting your poll as though it gives a fair view of the entire RL demographic and there view on this subject, when it clearly does not!   And thats where you lose me straight away.   Its your opinion surprisingly shared with some of your readers it does not mean its the best plan.................. We have heard your concerns a million times, I would say its time to stop bleating and let the Real decision makers in the game get on with sorting it out without your constant water muddying.

Please do not bother to reply to this statement, as I have no desire to be convinced or your motives or views............... its all old ground.

Edited by petesmithfan

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Schofield managed not only to big himself up as a guru on half backs and then to dismiss anyone else who played after him (as per) and then turned on his peers, Goulding and Edwards.

Surely, anyone new to the game might think, such a stellar player would have inspired the side in which he played to win trophy after trophy, and would be destined for a glorious coaching career.

That playing career in full - GS - 1 Yorkshire Cup, 1 Panasonic Cup (I was a bit embarrassed even to include these, but they really are the whole story); SE - 3 World Club Challenges, 8 Championships, 9 CC wins, 5 Lancashire Cup wins.

That coaching career in full - GS - I was almost too embarrassed to write anything here - 13 games at Huddersfield and 5 at Barrow; SE - sadly, all Dark Side, but seemingly impressive in their terms.

GS awarded himself the Golden Boot for each of the "lost" Open Rugby years, before being given it well after the event by his employers. Edwards won Man of Steel once.

Next week, read how GS was so much better than that Alex Murphy fella.

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Taking an average semi-pro player and giving him full time wages not make him a quality player capable of playing for England, etc. It simply makes him better paid, but he's still going to be an average player.

We need a better standard elite league and a better standard of player being produced. Having 20 clubs paying full time wages instead of 14 does neither of those things.

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You mention a lot of issues there, some of them not related to the structure of the leagues. But the point is that the RFL's proposals are unpopular with supporters, as our Readers' Poll revealed. A 2 to 1 majority against the two-twelves, three-eights proposal.

Don't forget that any player who is involved in international competition will play beyond the Grand Final. Did Ben Hellewell look shattered when he was playing for Scotland?

If you believe the game has become sterile and dull that's your prerogative, but I don't think any league reorganisation will cure that feeling for you.

And unfortunately you're not a realist, because you close your eyes to the damage that annual promotion and relegation does to clubs when they are having constantly to adjust from full-time to part-time status, and vice versa.

Never before in the SL era has annual promotion and relegation been cushioned with a decent level of funding as is proposed this time. So how can you possibly be so sure that the yo yo effect will come into the reckoning. Fev, Fax, Sheffield and Leigh are not far behind half the SL clubs ability wise as things stand now. Give them the funding and there would be absolutely no reason why they couldn't hack it in SL. Three years is too long to keep the fans' interest Edited by Terry Mullaney

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Martyn

 

You keep quoting your poll as though it gives a fair view of the entire RL demographic and there view on this subject, when it clearly does not!

Please do not bother to reply to this statement, as I have no desire to be convinced or your motives or views............... its all old ground.

How on earth do you know that our Poll doesn't give a fair view?

 

And I'm sorry, but I always reply.

 

It's odd to call it old ground when the clubs are debating it this week.

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Never before in the SL era has annual promotion and relegation been cushioned with a decent level of funding as is proposed this time. So how can you possibly be so sure that the yo yo effect will come into the reckoning. Fev, Fax, Sheffield and Leigh are not far behind half the SL clubs ability wise as things stand now. Give them the funding and there would be absolutely no reason why they couldn't hack it in SL. Three years is too long to keep the fans' interest

 

Isn't there a lot of evidence to suggest that none of these clubs will thrive in SL (though they might survive and contribute)?

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Schofield managed not only to big himself up as a guru on half backs and then to dismiss anyone else who played after him (as per) and then turned on his peers, Goulding and Edwards.

Surely, anyone new to the game might think, such a stellar player would have inspired the side in which he played to win trophy after trophy, and would be destined for a glorious coaching career.

That playing career in full - GS - 1 Yorkshire Cup, 1 Panasonic Cup (I was a bit embarrassed even to include these, but they really are the whole story); SE - 3 World Club Challenges, 8 Championships, 9 CC wins, 5 Lancashire Cup wins.

That coaching career in full - GS - I was almost too embarrassed to write anything here - 13 games at Huddersfield and 5 at Barrow; SE - sadly, all Dark Side, but seemingly impressive in their terms.

GS awarded himself the Golden Boot for each of the "lost" Open Rugby years, before being given it well after the event by his employers. Edwards won Man of Steel once.

Next week, read how GS was so much better than that Alex Murphy fella.

 

The decision to award Garry Schofield the Golden Boot was actually made in 1990 by Open Rugby Magazine itself, years before LPL's ownership of the title and years before Garry Schofield began writing for League Express. It wasn't presented in 1990 due to a dispute between the magazine's publisher, Harry Edgar, and the then sponsors of the award, Adidas.

 

“After Garry’s performances in 1990, he should have been the rightful winner. He’d been absolutely outstanding on the tour to New Zealand and in the Ashes series against Australia – the closest we’ve been to them in years. Garry was a brilliant player – no one can deny that.” - Harry Edgar.

 

The full story is here:

http://www.totalrl.com/web/the-golden-boot-the-missing-years-1990/

.

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Never before in the SL era has annual promotion and relegation been cushioned with a decent level of funding as is proposed this time. So how can you possibly be so sure that the yo yo effect will come into the reckoning. Fev, Fax, Sheffield and Leigh are not far behind half the SL clubs ability wise as things stand now. Give them the funding and there would be absolutely no reason why they couldn't hack it in SL. Three years is too long to keep the fans' interest

Unfortunately the disparity in funding that the Championship clubs will receive from 2015 will ensure that the Championship becomes a very uneven competition, which won't do anyone any good. And the funding that you refer to is designed to paper over the cracks, rather than being used creatively.

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Martyn, whilst I agree with the general theory of your proposal, I fear that such an idea could backfire and penalise a potential well-run, progressive club.

 

Lets for arguments sake say Halifax are promoted to SL in 2015.  In the first year they are competitive but finish bottom on points difference.

 

In year 2 they increase their average crowd, successfully introduce young lads to the first team through their acadamey and finish in 10th place.

 

In year 3 crowds increase again, commercial revenue increases, players are picked for representative teams, ground improvements are made and the team finishes 7th.

 

Meanwhile a club which has seen crowds fall over the 3 year period, which relies on foreign imports and has finished 11th each season is exempt from relegation.  Halifax though, courtesy of finishing bottom in the first year must go into a play-off at the end of the season, when potentially their key players could be out injured.  Would this be fair?

 

The main thing SL needs to address is increasing revenue to Championship clubs to close the gap in standards between both leagues.  Once this is addressed straightforward P&R (with conditions) could be used.

 

 

 

"Rugby League is rugby in the simplest form in the sense that it's about great defence, great tackling technique, good handling, good passing, catching and great kicking."

 

 Stuart Lancaster - England Rugby Union Head Coach - October 2013

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Schofield managed not only to big himself up as a guru on half backs and then to dismiss anyone else who played after him (as per) and then turned on his peers, Goulding and Edwards.

Surely, anyone new to the game might think, such a stellar player would have inspired the side in which he played to win trophy after trophy, and would be destined for a glorious coaching career.

That playing career in full - GS - 1 Yorkshire Cup, 1 Panasonic Cup (I was a bit embarrassed even to include these, but they really are the whole story); SE - 3 World Club Challenges, 8 Championships, 9 CC wins, 5 Lancashire Cup wins.

That coaching career in full - GS - I was almost too embarrassed to write anything here - 13 games at Huddersfield and 5 at Barrow; SE - sadly, all Dark Side, but seemingly impressive in their terms.

GS awarded himself the Golden Boot for each of the "lost" Open Rugby years, before being given it well after the event by his employers. Edwards won Man of Steel once.

Next week, read how GS was so much better than that Alex Murphy fella.

 

Would Shaun Edwards' trophy haul have been the same if he had played in the Leeds team of the 80's/90's?  Would Schoey have won the same medals as Shaun if he were a Wigan player?

 

Medal count's can not be used as a comparison of a players ability.  Rugby League is a team sport.

 

For what it is worth I believe Schofield was a more creative player than Edwards.  

"Rugby League is rugby in the simplest form in the sense that it's about great defence, great tackling technique, good handling, good passing, catching and great kicking."

 

 Stuart Lancaster - England Rugby Union Head Coach - October 2013

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Martyn, whilst I agree with the general theory of your proposal, I fear that such an idea could backfire and penalise a potential well-run, progressive club.

 

Lets for arguments sake say Halifax are promoted to SL in 2015.  In the first year they are competitive but finish bottom on points difference.

 

In year 2 they increase their average crowd, successfully introduce young lads to the first team through their acadamey and finish in 10th place.

 

In year 3 crowds increase again, commercial revenue increases, players are picked for representative teams, ground improvements are made and the team finishes 7th.

 

Meanwhile a club which has seen crowds fall over the 3 year period, which relies on foreign imports and has finished 11th each season is exempt from relegation.  Halifax though, courtesy of finishing bottom in the first year must go into a play-off at the end of the season, when potentially their key players could be out injured.  Would this be fair?

 

The main thing SL needs to address is increasing revenue to Championship clubs to close the gap in standards between both leagues.  Once this is addressed straightforward P&R (with conditions) could be used.

Your latter point first.

 

You are right to say that we need to increase revenue to Championship clubs. But I would suggest we need ti increase revenue to all Championship clubs, not just a chosen few, as will happen with the RFL's proposals.

 

And the best way to do it is to have a vibrant competition with big incentives that clubs are desperate to win.

 

If any system there are all sorts of scenarios every week of the year that don't seem 'fair'. But the most unfair thing for Halifax in the scenario you outline would be to be relegated in year one. By the end of year 3 they should be strong enough to survive. The trouble is you are trying to predict every worse-case scenario, and they very rarely happen.

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No, but none of it will ever be 'known' they need to be calculated risks.

 

Some analysis on the repeat fixtures when we were at 12 teams would support the point I made I expect, but there will always be quirks due to the local derbies etc.

 

The repeat fixtures is a potential issue, without question, but if I'm honest in the absence of more strong teams, repeat fixtures are probably the way to go.

 

 

Fair enough.

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Your latter point first.

 

You are right to say that we need to increase revenue to Championship clubs. But I would suggest we need ti increase revenue to all Championship clubs, not just a chosen few, as will happen with the RFL's proposals.

 

And the best way to do it is to have a vibrant competition with big incentives that clubs are desperate to win.

 

If any system there are all sorts of scenarios every week of the year that don't seem 'fair'. But the most unfair thing for Halifax in the scenario you outline would be to be relegated in year one. By the end of year 3 they should be strong enough to survive. The trouble is you are trying to predict every worse-case scenario, and they very rarely happen.

 

I agree that funding to all Championship clubs needs to be raised. Like you I am opposed to the 12x2, 3x8 proposal even though it may be theoretically the easiest way for my club (Featherstone) to rise to the top league.

 

At the moment we seem to have a situation where certain clubs are in SL solely on the basis of benefiting from £1.2m Sky monies. This can not be right and the disparity in funding needs to be remedied.

 

In your column in League express you refer back to the days when there was just one division.  Wouldn't it be interesting to see who would rise and who would fall if this was re-introduced with all clubs receiving the same TV monies! 

"Rugby League is rugby in the simplest form in the sense that it's about great defence, great tackling technique, good handling, good passing, catching and great kicking."

 

 Stuart Lancaster - England Rugby Union Head Coach - October 2013

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Would Shaun Edwards' trophy haul have been the same if he had played in the Leeds team of the 80's/90's?  Would Schoey have won the same medals as Shaun if he were a Wigan player?

 

Medal count's can not be used as a comparison of a players ability.  Rugby League is a team sport.

 

For what it is worth I believe Schofield was a more creative player than Edwards.

Just picking up on this. For what it's worth, I think there was a brief period when Schofield was a better player than Edwards, and a very fine 6. Not the world's best player, but a very good one. What Edwards had was a will to win and a drive which made the most of every ounce of his talent, over a very long period. He became the game's most decorated player for a reason, and deserves better than to be casually dismissed by someone who never once managed to lift the team he played with into one good enough to win a major prize.

I can and I will compare their medal hauls - when the disparity is this vast, it demands close examination.

Determination and drive are as much part of what makes a player great as speed and balance.

That he was the corner stone of every great Wigan side of the era, the most successful club side of any era, is reason to hail him, not dismiss him. We sold Hanley when his powers waned. We'd have done the same to Edwards.

Now, I know that Schofield is deranged, but entertaining, but in case anyone reads his column and believes he was a class above Edwards the facts provide a massive rebuke.

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We can agree to disagree. That's fine with me. I would still like to know where the revenue to maintain a fully pro league is coming from. Most of the teams cannot afford it.

 

The ten top teams average 11,000 fans against each other maybe more, the TV deal gives £1.68M per club shared 10 ways. A ten club league on paper has crowds that can sustain 10 clubs and has nearly £500K a club extra TV money. I hope that explains my thinking for you.

 

There may well be  bigger crowds to be found for just one club in Calder and one in Bradhuddersfax and one in Hull. Who know maybe someone "Elite" in the business world would want to be associated with a much more Elite Superleague and sponsor it. Who knows, as Canetman says the french are good at sponsoring their top clubs so maybe Toulouse will get Aerospace money.

 

Who know, the public may be bored by them playing each other three times and it may all end in tears, fine we can go amateur knowing we gave it a proper go rather than drifting about with no real aim.

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