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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Wakefield now there's a club who have a great opportunity, sadly they tend to ignore the kids they work with.

 

Wakey are only a strong money man away from being a big club again IMO, That said Fev could be another Fartown, if MR N has the mind for it.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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You need to map out in your mind the likely reality of 3 years down the line if the funding that was mentioned is a reality

You will have 4 current championship clubs who will have been running FT for three years with the two relegated SL clubs from 2014, you then have 18 existing FT clubs add in a Toulouse and another and you have a ready made two FT tens to have P&R within, you introduce a 3 year franchise with a view to getting two twelves and hey presto you have a plan to expand the game encompassing P&R from a FT environment

So your target if to re introduce licences

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Your last sentence could apply to all towns or cities, so to me is too simplistic to understand why low attendances.  

 

Even if you look from a purely football perspective the average crowds is around 15000, yep way more than rugby league but still hardly suggests massive interest in attending football match.

 

Of course depends if looking from purely the towns population  (almost 150,000)or the wider Kirkless (almost 500,000). I assume should be looking at wider Kirklee's as I would imagine that should be the target market.

 

Thus can't be as simple as saying its a football town.  Where is most entertainment spend in Huddersfield/kirklees or is the demographics such that only minimal available for spending and so no attendance but lots of interest.

 

 

Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

I know what you are saying about competition from Soccer, But Warrington , Wakey , Cas for eg don't have it directly in the same Town , let alone the same stadium. They do have competition from bigger and better clubs  in some cases, and well done to them if they win the battle..

 

Wigan are a bit different, as far as i know League is more or less regarded as the first game there, In Huddersfield It's the other way round, That said people are working very hard to change that, and you have to realize that Wigan ( a club i admire greatly ) will still pull in less Fans than a second string Huddersfield Town side do, That is a club at the very top, Let alone one who have just won their first title for 80 years.

 

This is not intended as some sort of excuse for Fartowns low crowds, I don't feel i need an excuse, I'm not responsible for it. I think It's about 3 times what it was when SL started, but i feel it will be a long job.

 

In the 50s and 60s Huddersfield like most Towns was working flat out and was regarded as one of the richest Towns in the country, don't know where it rates now , But if the amount of money being spent by the Uni ,or Kirklees is any guide it is hardly skint,

 

I'm told the Holme Valley is very popular with people from Manchester, who still work there, Don't know what their sporting tastes are,

You are right about Kirklees it has a big population, It also has other League teams, and we all know how people round here feel about watching anyone but their own team.

 

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

I know what you are saying about competition from Soccer, But Warrington , Wakey , Cas for eg don't have it directly in the same Town , let alone the same stadium. They do have competition from bigger and better clubs  in some cases, and well done to them if they win the battle..

 

Wigan are a bit different, as far as i know League is more or less regarded as the first game there, In Huddersfield It's the other way round, That said people are working very hard to change that, and you have to realize that Wigan ( a club i admire greatly ) will still pull in less Fans than a second string Huddersfield Town side do, That is a club at the very top, Let alone one who have just won their first title for 80 years.

 

This is not intended as some sort of excuse for Fartowns low crowds, I don't feel i need an excuse, I'm not responsible for it. I think It's about 3 times what it was when SL started, but i feel it will be a long job.

 

In the 50s and 60s Huddersfield like most Towns was working flat out and was regarded as one of the richest Towns in the country, don't know where it rates now , But if the amount of money being spent by the Uni ,or Kirklees is any guide it is hardly skint,

 

I'm told the Holme Valley is very popular with people from Manchester, who still work there, Don't know what their sporting tastes are,

You are right about Kirklees it has a big population, It also has other League teams, and we all know how people round here feel about watching anyone but their own team.

 

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

 

Sydney has a population of 4.3 million and 9 NRL clubs which is 477,000 per club.

 

West Yorkshire has a population of 2.1 million and 5 SL clubs which is 420,000 per club. 

 

Both places have lower level clubs.  These population figures should enough to sustain the clubs.

 

The population of Wigan is 317,000 and the Wigan club does OK.

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Sydney has a population of 4.3 million and 9 NRL clubs which is 477,000 per club.

 

West Yorkshire has a population of 2.1 million and 5 SL clubs which is 420,000 per club. 

 

Both places have lower level clubs.  These population figures should enough to sustain the clubs.

 

The population of Wigan is 317,000 and the Wigan club does OK.

 

Wigan is a very impressive club for many reasons.

 

Comparing West Yorkshire to Sydney is pointless IMO, At 477.000 per club how many clubs should we have in London, There must be 8 or 9 million there, What matters is how many of them want to watch Rugby league, In Wigan the figure is good, and they have worked to keep it there , In other places not so good, But if you come up with a solution, Contact KD, Or better still the RFL.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

I know what you are saying about competition from Soccer, But Warrington , Wakey , Cas for eg don't have it directly in the same Town , let alone the same stadium. They do have competition from bigger and better clubs  in some cases, and well done to them if they win the battle..

 

Wigan are a bit different, as far as i know League is more or less regarded as the first game there, In Huddersfield It's the other way round, That said people are working very hard to change that, and you have to realize that Wigan ( a club i admire greatly ) will still pull in less Fans than a second string Huddersfield Town side do, That is a club at the very top, Let alone one who have just won their first title for 80 years.

 

This is not intended as some sort of excuse for Fartowns low crowds, I don't feel i need an excuse, I'm not responsible for it. I think It's about 3 times what it was when SL started, but i feel it will be a long job.

 

In the 50s and 60s Huddersfield like most Towns was working flat out and was regarded as one of the richest Towns in the country, don't know where it rates now , But if the amount of money being spent by the Uni ,or Kirklees is any guide it is hardly skint,

 

I'm told the Holme Valley is very popular with people from Manchester, who still work there, Don't know what their sporting tastes are,

You are right about Kirklees it has a big population, It also has other League teams, and we all know how people round here feel about watching anyone but their own team.

 

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

 

Some interesting comments.  No doubt less available spending is an issue but it doesn't seem to be spent on the Towns football either. I note from UK wide spending profile reports that theater and cinema spending has been increasing plus restaurant spending - so I'm guessing Huddersfield area would be similar. Mind you its us oldies than seem to have the spending power, so maybe clubs should look to target them more... the under 30s have the least spending... well the report I've read.

 

Whilst the town football may not be seeing particularly high attendance maybe soccer interest now goes to the likes of Manchester and the dominance of the premier league. Similar for Wigan, Saints and Warrington as their population profiles have changed with people moving in from non traditional Rugby League area's, i.e. from Merseyside, Liverpool and Manchester - for example when I go back to st helens more and more scouse accents pop up.

 

I'm assuming clubs need to broaden their fan base demographics. 

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Sydney has a population of 4.3 million and 9 NRL clubs which is 477,000 per club.

West Yorkshire has a population of 2.1 million and 5 SL clubs which is 420,000 per club.

Both places have lower level clubs. These population figures should enough to sustain the clubs.

The population of Wigan is 317,000 and the Wigan club does OK.

how many total sports clubs in each??

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Some interesting comments. No doubt less available spending is an issue but it doesn't seem to be spent on the Towns football either. I note from UK wide spending profile reports that theater and cinema spending has been increasing plus restaurant spending - so I'm guessing Huddersfield area would be similar. Mind you its us oldies than seem to have the spending power, so maybe clubs should look to target them more... the under 30s have the least spending... well the report I've read.

Whilst the town football may not be seeing particularly high attendance maybe soccer interest now goes to the likes of Manchester and the dominance of the premier league. Similar for Wigan, Saints and Warrington as their population profiles have changed with people moving in from non traditional Rugby League area's, i.e. from Merseyside, Liverpool and Manchester - for example when I go back to st helens more and more scouse accents pop up.

I'm assuming clubs need to broaden their fan base demographics.

under thirties are spending all their wages on mortgage/rent the oldies are benefitting from this as their propertys have been inflated greatly, oldies are drawing pensions as well as working past retirement age. .. keeping jobs from the young whilst basking in double wages......

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Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

 

It's a good argument.

 

Leeds can manage to find 15,000 fans and 22 Leeds born professionals so they manage to sustain a competitive Super League club.

 

Bradford can manage 15,000 fans and were late to the quality academy system but started to turn them out sadly due to financial difficulties they have had to sell these lads on, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman , Kopczak etc.

 

So the reality is West Yorkshire has managed to support two real Superleague clubs. Now they have one.

 

Getting Bradford back on track and getting one club in the Calder area where reality shows there's enough good young players to stock a Superleague team and 20,000 fans, enough to sustain one club even if half jump ship hankering after the past.

 

Five SL clubs is Fairyland. One is reality, three would take a strong will and good planning. 2/12/3/8 is not that it's a weak cop out and no plan at all.

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Why does every thread end up talking about Yorkshire, Yorkshire clubs and average attendances, etc?     Re-structure of the league is the subject!!!

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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under thirties are spending all their wages on mortgage/rent the oldies are benefitting from this as their propertys have been inflated greatly, oldies are drawing pensions as well as working past retirement age. .. keeping jobs from the young whilst basking in double wages......

 

mind you the report also says that 18 to 30's have a high spend on alcohol and digital media, e,g film and music streaming.

 

So some sections of under 30s community have spending power, just not as high as over 50's.  I guess one of the major issues is the fan base demographics, i.e. RL doesn't have enough of those that spend and is not sufficiently attractive product to change spend.  This would have more impact than restructuring. Although some think that it will improve its attractiveness to new fans via improved intensity of the games. Comfort and facilities I suspect is more important to a other demographic of fans.

Edited by redjonn
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mind you the report also says that 18 to 30's have a high spend on alcohol and digital media, e,g film and music streaming.

 

So some sections of under 30s community have spending power, just not as high as over 50's.  I guess one of the major issues is the fan base demographics, i.e. RL doesn't have enough of those that spend and is not sufficiently attractive product to change spend.  This would have more impact than restructuring. Although some think that it will improve its attractiveness to new fans via improved intensity of the games. Comfort and facilities I suspect is more important to a other demographic of fans.

 

League is a sport IMO that many young people look on as "It's never really caught on " It's understanable, They have never seen Fev at Wembley, never saw Wigan and Hull put on the super show, they look around and see Football going loony with money, Union awash with it , and filling stadia for internationals, just about every sport seems to be going forward except League, which is a yearly story of clubs going down the pan, or barely surviving,

 

We do not project the right image, We do not have the right people running the game, we do not get our share of what's going from sponsers etc, On the field we are second to none, Off it we are also rans.

 

Last time i read anything about it Viewing figures for League were better than for Union, Who gets most TV money ?,  Just my opinion of course , but none of this has anything at all to do with formats, it has to do with people.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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It's a good argument.

 

Leeds can manage to find 15,000 fans and 22 Leeds born professionals so they manage to sustain a competitive Super League club.

 

Bradford can manage 15,000 fans and were late to the quality academy system but started to turn them out sadly due to financial difficulties they have had to sell these lads on, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman , Kopczak etc.

 

So the reality is West Yorkshire has managed to support two real Superleague clubs. Now they have one.

 

Getting Bradford back on track and getting one club in the Calder area where reality shows there's enough good young players to stock a Superleague team and 20,000 fans, enough to sustain one club even if half jump ship hankering after the past.

 

Five SL clubs is Fairyland. One is reality, three would take a strong will and good planning. 2/12/3/8 is not that it's a weak cop out and no plan at all.

 

E mail the RFL and ask them. There are 5 SL clubs in West Yorkshire whether you like it or not.

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League is a sport IMO that many young people look on as "It's never really caught on " It's understanable, They have never seen Fev at Wembley, never saw Wigan and Hull put on the super show, they look around and see Football going loony with money, Union awash with it , and filling stadia for internationals, just about every sport seems to be going forward except League, which is a yearly story of clubs going down the pan, or barely surviving,

 

We do not project the right image, We do not have the right people running the game, we do not get our share of what's going from sponsers etc, On the field we are second to none, Off it we are also rans.

 

Last time i read anything about it Viewing figures for League were better than for Union, Who gets most TV money ?,  Just my opinion of course , but none of this has anything at all to do with formats, it has to do with people.

 

To be fair, we filled a lot of stadia for internationals only two months ago.

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It's a good argument.

 

Leeds can manage to find 15,000 fans and 22 Leeds born professionals so they manage to sustain a competitive Super League club.

 

Bradford can manage 15,000 fans and were late to the quality academy system but started to turn them out sadly due to financial difficulties they have had to sell these lads on, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman , Kopczak etc.

 

So the reality is West Yorkshire has managed to support two real Superleague clubs. Now they have one.

 

Getting Bradford back on track and getting one club in the Calder area where reality shows there's enough good young players to stock a Superleague team and 20,000 fans, enough to sustain one club even if half jump ship hankering after the past.

 

Five SL clubs is Fairyland. One is reality, three would take a strong will and good planning. 2/12/3/8 is not that it's a weak cop out and no plan at all.

 

 

I agree in general with most of what you have posted on this thread, and i agree about there being to many clubs in west Y, however due to the difficulties of expansion we have to have enough clubs to run an elite comp.

 

It seems to me that you judge a club as a true SL if it gets a crowd average of say 15,000 fans, I can see your way of thinking that may make a club self sustaining, that may be true. Myself i don't care whether they are self sustaining or not, I am bothered about whether they can compete or not and if they are good to watch ,Either live or on TV,

 

I can see there may be trouble down the line for all clubs who are depending on people putting money in to keep them up there, We have to wait and see about that,

 

For the time being we need 12 SL clubs real or otherwise to deliver to Sky, The ones that you seem to consider real at the moment seem to me to amount to 2, with 2/3 others getting there,

 

For me the days of big big crowds will probably never come back , other than for a very few clubs, They are a huge bonus without doubt, but the game is about money, wherever it comes from, Or more accurately in League the lack of it. 

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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To be fair, we filled a lot of stadia for internationals only two months ago.

 

Yes we did and it was the best for many a year I agree.

 

My real point was that Union do it every year with an inferior game and they have all the right people in place to make sure everybody knows it.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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Yes we did and it was the best for many a year I agree.

 

My real point was that Union do it every year with an inferior game and they have all the right people in place to make sure everybody knows it.

 

Union have been trying to wring the neck of the RL chicken since 1895. They have not succeeded yet. As Winston Churchill said "some chicken, some neck ".

Despite all the known advantages of establishment support and top level aid and discriminatory practices, RL is still here. It has conquered Australia it is on the rise in New Zealand, it is spreading like the rising tide in the UK, it is rising like a Phoenix from the ashes in France and setting down increasingly strong and widespread roots in fertile soil from South Africa to continental Europe to the middle east and north America and the Pacific Islands.

 

Top level union is all but dead in our English RL heartlands. Their game is as marginalised in this country as ours. Despite RU's successes it has  serious problems of over spending by it's clubs and divisions at club level over Europe and the celtic nations are well upset with their treatment by England.

 

Our recent World Cup was well received by the general public.

 

I think Mr Murdoch, The Australian TV networks and the BBC  are well pleased with the viewing figures for RL.

 

As always our game is in various sorts of crisis but I am cautiously optimistic.

 

I don't like the 3 x 8 format but yet I wish it well. It will be new and precedent setting.

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I agree in general with most of what you have posted on this thread, and i agree about there being to many clubs in west Y, however due to the difficulties of expansion we have to have enough clubs to run an elite comp.

 

It seems to me that you judge a club as a true SL if it gets a crowd average of say 15,000 fans, I can see your way of thinking that may make a club self sustaining, that may be true. Myself i don't care whether they are self sustaining or not, I am bothered about whether they can compete or not and if they are good to watch ,Either live or on TV,

 

I can see there may be trouble down the line for all clubs who are depending on people putting money in to keep them up there, We have to wait and see about that,

 

For the time being we need 12 SL clubs real or otherwise to deliver to Sky, The ones that you seem to consider real at the moment seem to me to amount to 2, with 2/3 others getting there,

 

The chairmen themselves have come out and stated their crowd averages needed to run a club with sustainability. None of them said 15,000. In  good stadium with facilities that up the take per head 8,000 was the figure e.g Salford, for older stadium 10,000 was the figure e.g. Bradford.It's worth actually noting what they say.

 

Nobody has said 12 is the right figure, it's a reduction to 12, 10 is a figure some people in the game support. You may not care that some "super" clubs are nothing but a rich man throwing £Millions into a half empty stadium and non functioning Academy, but I believe that fans and professional players are somehow the lifeblood of a vibrant game. Don't you??

 

The multi-millionaire skews the game as it is currently structured, hence your club with respect literally can't attract half the fans Bradford can, and it is said has no regard for Junior development. When the clubs were trying to keep Bradford afloat with the player transfer embargo who broke that? Huddersfield of course.

 

I love Fartown and had a walk around the old ground the other week (the two old turnstyles are gone now), I have been countless time and stood there in the lowest crowd ever when they used it to play out a late season Trafford.v.Nottingham game. I don't have it in for your club or any club, but a choice between the Bradford of a few years ago and Fartown today is a no brainer but economic reality and a cowardly decision on restructuring is forcing that choice.

Edited by The Parksider
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Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

 

It's rather boring to have to revisit the Giants crowd situation every ten minutes, but nonetheless.

 

You're spot on.   The club had atrophied to the point where there were perhaps 200 regular attendees at games.    Right now, a whole new generation of fans is having to be built up literally from nowhere.

 

The scale of Ken Davy's achievement at the Giants needs to be thought of in terms of Hunslet or Swinton being resurrected from the near-dead to go and top the table.

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Yes we did and it was the best for many a year I agree.

 

My real point was that Union do it every year with an inferior game and they have all the right people in place to make sure everybody knows it.

 

Union is not an inferior game.  It's a different game.   I don't like it much myself but if I had been born in Northampton I'd probably love it.

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people can't afford these days i don't know.

 

Given that we now play in summer, this is surely more of a lame excuse than a genuine explanation .

 

It's not just soccer - there are many more other things for people to do with leisure time these days.  On top of that, fewer and fewer people seem to be working traditional 9-5 days.  TV gives us access to the pinnacle of the sport from the comfort of our armchairs - both in the UK and abroad (the sports, that is, not the armchairs).  All these reasons - and others - are factors without any one being the sole reason.

 

At some point in the future - many years ahead - I do see sport below the highest level reverting to its amateur roots, where the motivation is people wanting to entertain themselves, rather than others.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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under thirties are spending all their wages on mortgage/rent the oldies are benefitting from this as their propertys have been inflated greatly, oldies are drawing pensions as well as working past retirement age. ..

 

Maybe their pensions aren't as good as you think, then.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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