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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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It would be great to see Stadiums full again, until such times are upon us we have to go with what we have, that is the reality, I don't know why these money men pick the clubs they do,( I make no excuse for Fartown taking Bradfords place with a less fan base), maybe you could talk one of them into changing clubs.

 

What for? So they can just buy up players from the bigger clubs and bring them down, whilst doing little to improve crowds at their own club whilst depleting crowds at others.

 

That is the reality and no we do not have to go with what we have. We have two strong areas in Calder and Bradhudderfax, and I'd remind you that when Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000 for Leeds. Huddersfield managed 7,756 for the same fixture last year.

 

I want those missing 15,000 fans paying to watch Superleague, not Ken Davey writing cheques for the losses.  Superleague needs private investment in the right places and on the right things. Yes we need someone to bankroll Wakey and Bradford, but because they aren't there it s no reason to watch them disintegrate whilst houses of cards are built at small clubs.

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When did Wakey stop being a small club? I must have missed it.

 

I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

 

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

 

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

 

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late  season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

 

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

 

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

 

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

 

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

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I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

 

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

 

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

 

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late  season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

 

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

 

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

 

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

 

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

Attendances did look very good last season for the Wildcats so it's worrying then that apparently they've only sold 2000 season tickets this time against over 4000 last pre season

According to some reports on their forum there were lots of free tickets circulating last season as well as some forged season tickets. On top of that season tickets were very cheap, up to half price of normal match day admission prices if bought early enough.

The new chairman, who seems to be doing a great job at sorting out the debts, is by the looks of things seeking to apply a more realistic pricing structure as well as cutting down the freebies and abuse. It will be interesting to see how their gates hold up during the coming season. Hopefully those people who benefitted from the good deals previously will have enjoyed it enough to stick with the club.

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I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

wakefield won't be getting any big crowds anytime soon ground capacity has been reduced to 5300 due to safety
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wakefield won't be getting any big crowds anytime soon ground capacity has been reduced to 5300 due to safety

 

 

The curse of "big club" Wakefield strikes again....

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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What for? So they can just buy up players from the bigger clubs and bring them down, whilst doing little to improve crowds at their own club whilst depleting crowds at others.

 

That is the reality and no we do not have to go with what we have. We have two strong areas in Calder and Bradhudderfax, and I'd remind you that when Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000 for Leeds. Huddersfield managed 7,756 for the same fixture last year.

 

 

Ooh, that's a bit disingenuous Parky. 

 

When Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000.    But they didn't do that very often.   In fact, the very height of Bullmania only produced one year where average crowds were more than 15,000, and Bradford City often outstripped them.   I think there were only 7 or 8 matches across the whole of Bullmania that pulled in 20k plus.    They did have a long run of games against Leeds where they pulled in big crowds consistently though, I'll give you that.

 

Alas, because of some poor management choices and a long term lack of investment in facilities (the curse of RL), it proved unsustainable and Bradford are now worse off than in the old Northern days.

 

Anyway I'm pretty sure that Huddersfield drew about 11,000 to a game against Leeds last year, an unimaginably huge figure to a young lad stood on the terrace at Fartown.   I hope that Huddersfield continue to build and that a similar rivalry can develop between the two clubs.

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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You say Union is played in nearly every country in the world - do you work for the RFU or summat? RU is played in only a small number of additional countries to RL, i.e. Argentina, Italy (albeit still being a minor sport) and SA. RL is played in PNG whereas RU isnt

 

I dislike Union as much as you do, In fact i hate it for what it has done to League in the past. That does not stop me from seeing what's real, Rugby league is played in London as is Union, Which is the bigger sport in London.

 

The same is true World wide, If you carn't accept that, so be it.

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Also, blue is the best colour and anyone who disagrees is just wrong. 

 

Comical.

 

Give me one objective criterion where union is superior to league.

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The shirt answer is "Yes". 

 

The longer story is that our game is better, growing and I have no fear of RU. Someone on here was being condescending to me about being older than many. One of the pluses to that is that I can remember when the game in the UK was confined exclusively to Yorks, Lanc and Cumberland and that included all amateur or junior clubs. 

 

There was no game in Wales, no game in Scotland, Ireland or anywhere else in England. There were only 4 national teams in RL.

 

Now there are professional clubs in London and Wales, Sheffield and Gateshead, Oxford and Gloucestershire with Coventry promised. There was no RL in the armed forces or the Universities. Now we are in both those places and one University Club is semi pro. There is amateur RL throughout the length and breadth of all four home nations.

 

In Australia the game at a serious pro level was confined to Sydney with a minor competition in Brisbane. Now there are NRL teams in Canberra, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Penrith, Melbourne and Auckland and serious plans are afoot for expanding to Perth.

 

In NZ there was a weak presence with the Kiwis generally ranked 4th out of four. Nowadays they have won the 4 nations, the World Cup and have just sold 100,000 tickets for a nines competition.

 

Wales are a serious international team, despite their poor showing in the last WC. Their junior teams compete well with England.

 

France, having almost sunk, have a strong team in SL and could fill two stadia for WC group matches. Their juniors also give a very good account of themselves.

 

PNG is the national sport of the country and are to enter a team in the Queensland cup.

 

Fiji have finished in the top four in consecutive World Cups and a trial match for their team in Fiji drew 10,000 and the club and school game is booming.

 

At international level there were exactly four nations, Aus, GB, France and NZ. That was it, total. Now we can qualify 14 teams for the World Cup and there are teams throughout Europe, North America, the Caribbean, the Pacific Islands with an outpost in Lebanon and South Africa with other African nations interested. We can hold world cups for students, women and disabled people. At senior level the first WC final attracted 30,000. Last year we filled Old Trafford. 4,000 plus attended a Canada V USA game in Toronto. 

 

Rugby League players and coaches are in demand by RU. this is a tribute to the quality of our game

 

There are more top class modern stadia in RL today than ever before. Men with money are attracted to invest in our game.

 

So, whilst RU is a threat, I would say RL is the more progressive and is bigger than it has ever been. Whilst we need to watch them like a dangerous enemy, providing are careful, they are not a threat to RL. maybe, just maybe, RU should look over their shoulder at us.

 

I accept everything you say about the spread of League World wide. I think you know my point was about the level of the two games, in Probably every country in the world other than Oz, One or two minor exceptions.

 

The days when League would sign good union players have been reversed , It is them signing our best players now, ( something that needs to stop ) How many top Aussie Union players now cross to League ,as opposed to League players going over to Union. Look at this weekends Nat papers and see who's getting full page spreads ,as opposed to a 2" in a coloumn somewhere.

 

Unpleasant as i find it I don't think Union needs to look over their shoulder at us. Where are A Farrell and S Edwards and the like these days, Our games top players , coaching the opposition, and who can blame them , they have famillies like everyone else.

 

Much as i dislike whoever is running that game , I wish we had some just like them.

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Winston may have said that, But who would you say is the stronger Country today. England or Germany.

 

Union may not have wrung Leagues neck yet , It just needs to hang about, League regularly shoots it's self in the foot, and occasionally tries to commit Suicide.

 

Union is played in Scotland, Ireland , Wales, most of England and just about every other country in the known world, They do have problems with money true ,But it seems to be about how to share out a masive amount of it, As opposed to League squabling over a small amount. I wish it were the other way round.

 

Your right about our World Cup , It was great and i hope it has inspired more TV coverage and more money.

 

Much as i dislike Union You have to admitt they have got themselves a slice of the cake, that makes league's look a bit sad. If viewing firures are as good or better for League, Why do they get so much more money than we do, ?  And why in comparison are we treated as second class by just about everyone ?, Could it possibly be that they have the right people in place to make sure they stay in the forefront.

 

Check todays news. Maybe the pendulum is swinging in our direction.

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how would anyone give you objective criteria for something that can only be judged subjectively?

 

Time the ball's in play is objective.  Fitness can be measured.  Just a couple of examples.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

 

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

 

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

 

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late  season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

 

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

 

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

 

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

 

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

 

What about when they were in the 2nd division on sub 2,000 crowds and barely sneaked promotion by very narrowly beating Fev in the grand final and the avoided relegation on the last day of the season for about four years in a row. Were they a big club then?

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I dislike Union as much as you do, In fact i hate it for what it has done to League in the past. That does not stop me from seeing what's real, Rugby league is played in London as is Union, Which is the bigger sport in London.

 

The same is true World wide, If you carn't accept that, so be it.

 

It's a close call. Both codes have only one top level club in London with Harlequins being more successful than the Broncos

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That's more like it!!

 

Anyway I picked out your sentence "when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in". For me that says it all in that in your region (and others like Calder and Hull) where we see clubs sticking the boot into each other depending who is top dog and taking scarce resources to boost themselves at the expense of others.

 

Another May gem is "The Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it".

 

Steve, I don't know when Ken Davey seriously came on board to make Huddersfield a true Supeleague club, I would guess 2002 when the club were unbeaten on promotion from CC1 before 2,600 fans.

 

That's over TEN years ago and Ken has spent how many millions to develop 4 Huddersfield lads into professionals and find another 3,800 fans. Truly appalling stats that I expect to be even worse at Salford where there's even less junior clubs to develop players from and even more apathy for watching the club.

 

My point is a simple one and is not having a go at anyone. I don't think Superleague can afford to allow multi-millionaires to dictate their small clubs should be in Superleague, using their money to put the boot into bigger more resourceful clubs to the overall detriment of the flagship competition.

 

Bradford brought crowds of over 20,000 to Superleague and although they started late, they developed an effective academy that brought through talent in number other clubs are now picking off as they stick the boot in the Bulls.

 

Superleague will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense.....

 

Best Tell KD to B****** off then , That will do Bradford and Wakey a power of good, Not to mention Huddersfield.

 

While we are at it the Dr as well, Who cares about Salford.

 

" Super league will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense"

 

It sure as H** won't grow without Money, If we get rid of these money men, How do you see that helping to Deliver the Sky contract ?

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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I accept everything you say about the spread of League World wide. I think you know my point was about the level of the two games, in Probably every country in the world other than Oz, One or two minor exceptions.

 

The days when League would sign good union players have been reversed , It is them signing our best players now, ( something that needs to stop ) How many top Aussie Union players now cross to League ,as opposed to League players going over to Union. Look at this weekends Nat papers and see who's getting full page spreads ,as opposed to a 2" in a coloumn somewhere.

 

Unpleasant as i find it I don't think Union needs to look over their shoulder at us. Where are A Farrell and S Edwards and the like these days, Our games top players , coaching the opposition, and who can blame them , they have famillies like everyone else.

 

Much as i dislike whoever is running that game , I wish we had some just like them.

 

The top Aussie RU players are all ex RL players. They have no RU produced players who could get into the NRL on merit. England RU are in the same boat.

 

RU has some top people running their game no doubt but recent developments in RL from the WC to the new Sky TV deal suggest that we have some half decent administrators ourselves.

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Time the ball's in play is objective.  Fitness can be measured.  Just a couple of examples.

Sure, you can measure those and other things, but whether more time with the ball in play or better fitness mean a sport is better than another sport is subjective.

NFL only has the ball in play for 11 minutes during a 3 hour game and their players are less fit yet it's the most popular sport in the US.

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