RL in Vichy France

[JohnM]

Is Cliff Spracklen on the forum these days?

[Futtocks]

League or should I say Jeu - league not allowed - bounced back after the war to achieve remarkable international success for Les Chanticleers.

Once the last of the prewar generation and those who'd been kids when the ban was imposed retired, the game in France deteriorated.

[longboard]

Approximately 225 according to most articles.

Grounds, Bank Accounts and all assets were seized by the FFR even the kits.

Players were "invited" to make statements of repent, if they chose not to they were banned from playing Union for life.

League was portrayed throughout as a corrupting influence on the morals of aspiring young men with anyone who played it having their social and career standings stunted.

After the fall of the Vichy regime, old prejudice prevailed with any potential League clubs being suffocated at birth. Finding 26 young men willing to risk their reputation by playing the forbidden game was nigh on impossible and even when they managed this they were denied a ground to play it on.

Much of the above still applies today

Shamefull

 

Thanks for the figures. I recall the general outline but not the specifics.

 

No irony of course in the fact that part of the reason that the France RU team were excluded from the Five Nations for much of the 1930s was the professionalism in the French game. So, a partly professional sport took over the assets of another partly professional sport under the Vichy government......

[The Future is League]

This might throw up a few names from the sporting world who we might have heard of.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/6827256/Nowhere-left-to-hide-for-Nazi-collaborators-when-Holocaust-records-are-published-in-France-today.html

[Pie tries]

It is due, whether it actually gets paid is another matter.

I'll start with some recognition for their low deed

[Pie tries]

Now... I'm making the decision to leave this here as it has genuine rugby league interest.  If people use it as an excuse to bag modern rugby union or get all frothy mouthed then it'll be moved to the Cross Code forum.  Play nicely people.

Think we're allowed a little froth though !

[Pie tries]

Approximately 225 according to most articles.

Grounds, Bank Accounts and all assets were seized by the FFR even the kits.

Players were "invited" to make statements of repent, if they chose not to they were banned from playing Union for life.

League was portrayed throughout as a corrupting influence on the morals of aspiring young men with anyone who played it having their social and career standings stunted.

After the fall of the Vichy regime, old prejudice prevailed with any potential League clubs being suffocated at birth. Finding 26 young men willing to risk their reputation by playing the forbidden game was nigh on impossible and even when they managed this they were denied a ground to play it on.

Much of the above still applies today

Shamefull

So bloody well said !

[ckn]

Think we're allowed a little froth though !

Just a bit... as long as it's rational... irrational frothing isn't though...

[longboard]

Think we're allowed a little froth though !

 

That's how we like it in the north.

[LionelHurst]

Not one response from French Rugby League. No demands for money or apology. Sadly we have no leaders in our great sport in any country. RLEF RLIF? Any utterance? No. It is this silence that saw so many sent to their deaths and of course led to the disgusting acts against our sport. It appears this same cowardice prevails.

[Shadow]

Not one response from French Rugby League. No demands for money or apology. Sadly we have no leaders in our great sport in any country. RLEF RLIF? Any utterance? No. It is this silence that saw so many sent to their deaths and of course led to the disgusting acts against our sport. It appears this same cowardice prevails.

It's very easy to remain outraged and thirst for justice from a remote position however if there was a very real possibility that delving into the fairly recent past revealed that your own family were complicit in sending me & Mrs Goldstein to the death camps I'm pretty sure that desire to rake over old coals may be somewhat subdued.

We are fortunate in the UK that we were not occupied and consequently didn't have that situation forced upon us, the French don't have that luxury and I can fully understand why there is a collective desire to sweep many of those events Under the carpet. While the treatment of RL was shameful it is far from being the worst thing that was inflicted on France by its own citizens.

In my view this is a matter for France and their own collective conscience, we cannot begin to understand to collective shame and upheaval sensationalised revelations from these documents could stir up and as such should keep well out.

[LionelHurst]

You certainly use an appropriate name.

[winnyason]

League or should I say Jeu - league not allowed - bounced back after the war to achieve remarkable international success for Les Chanticleers.

The wonderful success of the group from the early 50s to late 60s was legendary down under wonderful appreciation. Unfortunately the damage was done but not felt til early to mid 70s . From this period France has struggled in a domestic and national arena.

Gone are the days from iconic era of packed stadiums in big cities such as Marseilles, Lyon, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Paris. These days rugby league survives only in major cities such as Toulouse and Perpignan, and heartland clubs such as Avignon, Albi, lezignan, villenvue, limoux. It has be now marginalised regional sport, even today somehow Toulouse have there stadium blocked.

I can never see the sport returning to its former glory in that country which is sad, Catalans are so scared of losing there sl spot which is the lifeline to the game in France, they fill the team with internationals.

The key to getting sport back on national level is to have a successful team, this won't happen with fear of a lost professional club on the line. Catalans are getting league back on the map but a successful national team it what people want.

[DoubleD]

It's very easy to remain outraged and thirst for justice from a remote position however if there was a very real possibility that delving into the fairly recent past revealed that your own family were complicit in sending me & Mrs Goldstein to the death camps I'm pretty sure that desire to rake over old coals may be somewhat subdued.

We are fortunate in the UK that we were not occupied and consequently didn't have that situation forced upon us, the French don't have that luxury and I can fully understand why there is a collective desire to sweep many of those events Under the carpet. While the treatment of RL was shameful it is far from being the worst thing that was inflicted on France by its own citizens.

In my view this is a matter for France and their own collective conscience, we cannot begin to understand to collective shame and upheaval sensationalised revelations from these documents could stir up and as such should keep well out.

 

That's not to say that this matter should be ignored. It should be highlighted through the appropriate channels, not sensationalised and recompense sought. I acknowledge there are far more important matters in this in the grand scheme of things but it doesn't mean RL can't make their point

[fieldofclothofgold]

Why were the NAZI's willing to ban a sport they knew Little about ? What were the French RU arguments against RL ? Was it because RL always taken all comers regardless of race colour or creed and did French RL have strong connections to the trade Unions?

[Futtocks]

Why were the NAZI's willing to ban a sport they knew Little about ? What were the French RU arguments against RL ? Was it because RL always taken all comers regardless of race colour or creed and did French RL have strong connections to the trade Unions?

1.The Nazis probably didn't care about Rugby of either code, but backed up their tame regime in France.

2.The French RU arguments against RL were probably jealousy and self-interest, plus a facade of the bogus amateurism argument we are familiar with in other territories.

[damp squib]

I think the official reason given was that French RL had some vague links to socialist movements.

[MaverickX111]

Why were the NAZI's willing to ban a sport they knew Little about ? What were the French RU arguments against RL ? Was it because RL always taken all comers regardless of race colour or creed and did French RL have strong connections to the trade Unions?

Growing up as a kid I always learnt that French rugby union sided with the nazis

[Futtocks]

I think the official reason given was that French RL had some vague links to socialist movements.

Probably that was one of the unofficial reasons. Petain, Borotra and Pascot dressed up their actions as preserving the Corinthian ideal, as professionalism in sport had weakened the French moral character.

[Barnaby Reddin]

Found This...pretty self explanatory really, they used their powers to remove a competitor. Whether this wrong will ever be even acknowledged remains to be seen but getting anything back or any payment is highly unlikely as the French would be loathe to open old wounds.

[Futtocks]

Found This...pretty self explanatory really, they used their powers to remove a competitor. Whether this wrong will ever be even acknowledged remains to be seen but getting anything back or any payment is highly unlikely as the French would be loathe to open old wounds.

If the codes' roles had been reversed, I think the media would have extensively and repeatedly made the public aware of what happened, and the clamour for absolutely massive reparations would have been deafening.

[Barnaby Reddin]

If the codes' roles had been reversed, I think the media would have extensively and repeatedly made the public aware of what happened, and the clamour for absolutely massive reparations would have been deafening.

It's a tough one to call. Who owns the French media......is the establishment there similar to the UK? And, as I said before, they will be loathe to open up old wounds. My sister lives in the Cognac region and says there are still plenty of fueding families down there.

[MaverickX111]

It's a tough one to call. Who owns the French media......is the establishment there similar to the UK? And, as I said before, they will be loathe to open up old wounds. My sister lives in the Cognac region and says there are still plenty of fueding families down there.

Can she send me a bottle please

Address to follow

[Cliff Spracklen]

Is Cliff Spracklen on the forum these days?

Thanks for the question. John I recall you coming to the Stanningley clubhouse when Bramley were looking after Robert Fassolette, who was responsible for the initial research on Vichy and Rugby League. Robert had brought his French Wheelchair RL to the UK for the first time having effectively created the sport in his professional role as Education Advisor on Disability and Sport. We found teams for the French to play against, the first being the Cleckheaton Cardinals Wheelchair Basketball team under Malcolm Kielty, now honoured for his tremendous work in establishing Wheelchair RL (not to be confused with Wheelchair Rugby).

But to set the context Robert was taking on a new challenge having led the pressure group XIII Actif.  Robert was Chair of the Association which comprised several key figures in French RL from Lezignan, Villeneuve, X111 Catalan, St. Martin de Crau, Roanne and many more. I was the sole UK member, being then Chair of the RL Supporters Association.

We secured media coverage in the French national press.  I myself had a full page article in The Guardian, very unusual, on the whole subject. We lobbied the French Government and on a visit to the European Parliament with Robert we met Lurent Fabius, now French Prime Minister, who was a "sympathisant".  We met the then French Sports Minister Marie Georges Buffet, who promised action. This was at the same time as the French Union of Jewish Students was lobbying for investigation into the Vichy Government role in rounding up and transporting Jews, Communists, Gypsies and others to concentration camps and death.

We always stressed that there were more heinous crimes committed by Vichy than the banning of RL. Nevertheless it was part of the same mindset and process and needed to be put right.

Some further investigation by a Government academic was carried out confirming the discrimination against RL. i never saw the report. It was allegedly sent to the then Chair of the French RL Federation, Jean-Paul Ferre. He was the least popular President of alltime and was hostile to both Robert Fassolette and X111 Actif. I wrote to him asking why and received a most bizarre reply. He certainly did not want to rock the boat, accusing us of doing just that. But to my knowledge he did not circulate the report. Happily he stood down the following year and was replaced by a more enlightened Chair.

I suspect at the time, though I have no evidence, that French RL benefitted for a period with extra funding from Government, eg for the French Tour to Australia, and various development officer posts.

But since then French RL has enjoyed a better relationship and been regarded positively by French Governments, for example for in its social and development work in disadvantaged areas of greater Paris.

Indeed former Toulouse Chair, Carlos Zalduendo, now French RL Federation Chair was invited to accompany French President Francois Hollande to Australia. Ironically one of those making positive noises some years ago was French Sports Minister Bernard Laporte, previously French national RU coach.

As sport in France is perceived as something that Government should take a strong interest in, all sports receive government funding, via the various national, regional and local structures. This has been affected by more difficult general economic conditions in recent years, but is still crucial. Of course French RU now a major business, benefitting from megabucks from its commercial partners.

So I suppose it might be less worried about any reopening of the Vichy wounds. I took much satisfaction at penning an Early Day Motion for David Hinchcliffe MP, some years ago condemning the Vichy regime and its' collaborationist allies, the French RU, for banning French RL during the War.

I was even more delighted that it was presented before Parliament the very week that France was playing in the RU World Cup Final at Cardiff.

French fascists and Vichy embraced the Nazi philosophy of sport which opposed professionalism, so RL was caught up in that view, but the motives for French RU in its' collaborration was mercenary , in seeing an opportunity to get rid of a rival code, that was rapidly overtaking it in popular appeal.

What might happen now with the latest investigation is uncertain. But the treatment of RL, as suggested previously, would not be near the top of the list. However RL is in a much better place in France compared with the pre-X111 Actif era. The latest manifestation has been the announcement that Robert Fassolette must be delighted with, is that PE Teachers can now have a RL specialisation for working in schools. This was never allowed previously. You could specialise in any sport other than RL. So quite a breakthrough this year.

French RL still has many problems, not least the state of the Elite competition, and the uncertainty after all these years of whether France will finally have its' second SL club, promised in 1994, assuming Toulouse make it through the divisions. But it is at least not having to cope with a hostile Government.

Apologies for those who prefer one liners or short quips! But you did ask!

[dkw]

Excellent post, certainly nothing to apologise about. Great to hear about specialisation in schools, that's a massive step forward.