RL in Vichy France

[Steve Fox]

From the BBC News site...

France is opening up police and ministerial archives from the Vichy regime which collaborated with Nazi occupation forces in World War Two.

More than 200,000 declassified documents are being made public on Monday. They date from the 1940-1944 regime of Marshal Philippe Petain.

What are the implications for RL historians in this? Are there more skeletons in the RU/Vichy cupboard or is everything in the public domain already?

[Steve Fox]

* double post *

[MaverickX111]

I will be thinking a lot of compensation is due from union administrators who sided with the nazis

[deluded pom?]

I will be thinking a lot of compensation is due from union administrators who sided with the nazis

It is due, whether it actually gets paid is another matter.

[longboard]

Yes.

[ckn]

Now... I'm making the decision to leave this here as it has genuine rugby league interest.  If people use it as an excuse to bag modern rugby union or get all frothy mouthed then it'll be moved to the Cross Code forum.  Play nicely people.

[Futtocks]

There may be some new revelations, but what is already known to anyone who cares to look is the damning stuff.

 

There may be calls for reparations, but I doubt French RL will see any benefit or French RU will suffer any significant penalty.

[deluded pom?]

There may be some new revelations, but what is already known to anyone who cares to look is the damning stuff.

 

There may be calls for reparations, but I doubt French RL will see any benefit or French RU will suffer any significant penalty.

Is it French RU's responsibility to pay any compensation that may be due though? They were obviously the main beneficiaries of the FRL's assets being seized but technically it was the French government of the day who were responsible for seizing those assets.

[jannerboyuk]

Is it French RU's responsibility to pay any compensation that may be due though? They were obviously the main beneficiaries of the FRL's assets being seized but technically it was the French government of the day who were responsible for seizing those assets.

try buying some stolen goods down the pub and using that defence when you get nicked.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

I seem to remember that the French RL still hasn't had the assets confiscated when the game was suppressed returned by the French government. The cynic in me thinks that there will be a fair few files 'missing', having somehow slipped down the back of radiators and other convenient places!

[deluded pom?]

try buying some stolen goods down the pub and using that defence when you get nicked.

If only it were that cut and dried.

[EastLondonMike]

My memory may be playing up, but I'm sure there's a reference in the book "The Forbidden Game" that a lot of files/evidence was lost or "misplaced" after WW2 as to avoid any negativity after De Gaulle regained power. RL clearly wasn't considered worth worrying about back then.

[jannerboyuk]

If only it were that cut and dried.

no doubt it's complicated but the principle is still the same, in receipt of stolen goods is a crime in itself, legally and morally. Nothing will happen of course but still

[Exiled Wiganer]

I think it would require such a seismic shift in the balance of power and the influence wielded by the quinzistes for anything to happen, that we will be wearing helmets in case a pig lands on us before any reparations are made.

[The Future is League]

It is due, whether it actually gets paid is another matter.

I can't see any compensation being payed if I'm honest, although like you i agree it should be paid.

The whole Vichy thing remains even today an embarrassment to France.

I think I'm right in saying that until very recently the Vichy episode in French history was not taught in French state schools.

[LionelHurst]

Many treizistes were Maquis Resistance and executed by Vichy/Nazis. I think Gilbert Brutus included. This is one for Danny K and RLEF to lead to conclusion.

[Gambass]

Many treizistes were Maquis Resistance and executed by Vichy/Nazis. I think Gilbert Brutus included. This is one for Danny K and RLEF to lead to conclusion.

 

Gilbert Brutus was actualy an Union player. 

[CiderWire]

I doubt any reparations will be forthcoming but what would be nice would be a public apology and a full and frank admission of the true facts.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth!

[longboard]

no doubt it's complicated but the principle is still the same, in receipt of stolen goods is a crime in itself, legally and morally. Nothing will happen of course but still

 

I suppose it depends on whether the assets were taken legally by the government. The moral case is different of course. It's years since I read about the history of RL in France and I can't recall what happened.

 

Does anybody know how many RL clubs had their grounds, clubs, assets etc seized under the Vichy government?

[OMEGA]

I suppose it depends on whether the assets were taken legally by the government. The moral case is different of course. It's years since I read about the history of RL in France and I can't recall what happened.

 

Does anybody know how many RL clubs had their grounds, clubs, assets etc seized under the Vichy government?

Approximately 225 according to most articles.

Grounds, Bank Accounts and all assets were seized by the FFR even the kits.

Players were "invited" to make statements of repent, if they chose not to they were banned from playing Union for life.

League was portrayed throughout as a corrupting influence on the morals of aspiring young men with anyone who played it having their social and career standings stunted.

After the fall of the Vichy regime, old prejudice prevailed with any potential League clubs being suffocated at birth. Finding 26 young men willing to risk their reputation by playing the forbidden game was nigh on impossible and even when they managed this they were denied a ground to play it on.

Much of the above still applies today

Shamefull

[LionelHurst]

League or should I say Jeu - league not allowed - bounced back after the war to achieve remarkable international success for Les Chanticleers.

[deluded pom?]

Approximately 225 according to most articles.

Grounds, Bank Accounts and all assets were seized by the FFR even the kits.

Players were "invited" to make statements of repent, if they chose not to they were banned from playing Union for life.

League was portrayed throughout as a corrupting influence on the morals of aspiring young men with anyone who played it having their social and career standings stunted.

After the fall of the Vichy regime, old prejudice prevailed with any potential League clubs being suffocated at birth. Finding 26 young men willing to risk their reputation by playing the forbidden game was nigh on impossible and even when they managed this they were denied a ground to play it on.

Much of the above still applies today

Shamefull

Were the rugby league clubs' assets seized by the FFR or were they 'given' to the FFR by the government?

[JohnM]

I doubt any reparations will be forthcoming but what would be nice would be a public apology and a full and frank admission of the true facts.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth!

 

 "the true facts."

 

Despite the work carried out by Mike Rylance, the defence is that all professional sports were banned.

 

IN addition, I doubt there will be much in the records to support our contention and in any case there are bigger , wider issues of interest.

 

see for example, here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/28/world/europe/vichy-yearns-to-be-french-city-not-just-world-war-ii-memory.html?_r=0

 

 Starting this week, the government will begin releasing online 200,000 wartime collaboration records, which have been held at the Police Museum in Paris and have been off limits for 75 years. By 2019, every name in those records will be available to the public. Thierry Wirth, a Vichy historian and author, said that would provide a true picture of France’s “collective involvement.”

 

and a reference here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1EQyBEgYU5AC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=was+professional+sport+banned+by+petain&source=bl&ots=fIlPX9wMCn&sig=AM8JpdLLEKYCPFZNXJ7Ws68U4jE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyyqevxIHKAhVBqR4KHa7WA8cQ6AEIQTAG#v=onepage&q=was%20professional%20sport%20banned%20by%20petain&f=false

[johnh1]

I hope that the media in general and the BBC in particular make any revelations well known to the general public and give a full explanation as to what exactly happened. It would be great to then see a response from the Rugby Union authorities.

[CiderWire]

"the true facts."

Despite the work carried out by Mike Rylance, the defence is that all professional sports were banned.

IN addition, I doubt there will be much in the records to support our contention and in any case there are bigger , wider issues of interest.

see for example, here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/28/world/europe/vichy-yearns-to-be-french-city-not-just-world-war-ii-memory.html?_r=0

Starting this week, the government will begin releasing online 200,000 wartime collaboration records, which have been held at the Police Museum in Paris and have been off limits for 75 years. By 2019, every name in those records will be available to the public. Thierry Wirth, a Vichy historian and author, said that would provide a true picture of France’s “collective involvement.”

and a reference here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1EQyBEgYU5AC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=was+professional+sport+banned+by+petain&source=bl&ots=fIlPX9wMCn&sig=AM8JpdLLEKYCPFZNXJ7Ws68U4jE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyyqevxIHKAhVBqR4KHa7WA8cQ6AEIQTAG#v=onepage&q=was%20professional%20sport%20banned%20by%20petain&f=false

Wouldn't it be nice if Omnisports Parc were to host RL matches!