Have we learned a single thing from the 1997 WCC

[The Daddy]

.....one sided ass whoopings?

Seems like we're going round in circles, we haven't addressed all of the issues in the game in the uk. Back to the drawing board.

[GaryO]

.....one sided ass whoopings?

Seems like we're going round in circles, we haven't addressed all of the issues in the game in the uk. Back to the drawing board.

Super League has most definatly moved on from '97, the problem is we have not moved on at the pace the Antipodians have, and dare I say it they are in overdrive in respect of keeping on improving whilst we are in first gear.

[eal]

The gap is as big as it ever was. At least now there are many UK players in the NRL, whereas back in 1997 it really was the best the UK could offer and they still got hammered. There is no Super League team at the moment that could make the top-8 in the NRL, the top two or three could probably survive in the NRL, the rest are NSW and QLD Cup level.

[RSN]

Simple answer.

Australia RL had a better % pick of the athletes and a better range to pick from.

We have other sports picking the better athletes and are pretty much relying on half of England to supply a pro sport.

To resolve this takes probably a quarter of a billion investment.

[L Bow]

Robert Lui was man of the match against St Helens last week.  He was playing Queensland Cup all last season.

 

Ben Murdoch-Massila has been praised on these boards as good acquisition and one to keep an eye on.  He just the normal standard in the NRL.

[MrFussy]

Memories of that tournament are very prominent at present. If SL ever did start making up ground on the NRL (and I thought it did for a while) then it would appear to have fallen right behind again.

[MrFussy]

Robert Lui was man of the match against St Helens last week.  He was playing Queensland Cup all last season.

 

Ben Murdoch-Massila has been praised on these boards as good acquisition and one to keep an eye on.  He just the normal standard in the NRL.

This gives me hope that Dominique Peyroux might be a good signing for us!

[RSN]

Simple answer.

Australia RL had a better % pick of the athletes and a better range to pick from.

We have other sports picking the better athletes and are pretty much relying on half of England to supply a pro sport.

To resolve this takes probably a quarter of a billion investment.

[L Bow]

I think Peyroux should be decent signing.  He's played centre and second-row in the NRL.  The problem is that Lyon and Matt Gidley set a high bar.  He's not in that league but he's no mug.

[Futtocks]

Widnes cut Leeds to shreds last weekend. North Queensland will probably do the same tomorrow. What does that tell us? Not a lot. But the Leeds team that earned their WCC place in 2015 is misfiring horribly in 2016.

 

We have three teams in the series that are nowhere near as good as they were at the end of last season. Brisbane have had the benefit of a whole season under Bennett and are, according to the commentary tonight, favourite for the NRL title this year.

 

That 1997 Broncos team was something special, though! 

[Kris]

Huge talent pool to pick from, better weather longer off season less matches better training facilities that aren't snowed off or under 10 feet of water, larger squads better youth development through playing meaningful second grade leagues and inter state footy all the way down to what we would call amateur level

 

Nothing to do with salary caps if you recall in 1997 a lot of our squads were stuffed with higher class aussies etc than they are now, but that's it.

 

Our player talent pool is small, ###### weather and facilities, short off season, too many matches, not enough youth development relies too heavily on natural talent which is then wasted by coaches training it out of them - look at McNally for one and hes not alone - get the cattle on the field bums on seats etc etc

 

The only way to progress is to plough cash into widening the player talent pool, and develop younger players through a central system I would even go for a draft system which will get shouted down here again but the age of central quality academies is coming because there is a finite number of young players to shoot for now at the elite level

 

If we do not expand across Europe primarily because its seemingly easier than in our own back yard, we pretty soon wont have a talent pool at all just a lot of average tired and abused players going round every year for a pay packet

 

Invest in youth development with quality coaching and facilities, create a draft system,  concentrate on excellence and quality as well as just quality and prevent these players playing SL until they are at east 20 years of age, having played in a quality reserve grade competition representing regions rather than clubs

 

Then draft them into super league when ready to play at that level not when you have an injury crisis etc which does no one any good in the long run

 

The best team model to follow is the rhinos but even they are regressing I recall the days of Sinfield et al in a reserve grade comp coming through together and continuing that culture into S together phased in over three years

 

They cant do that now hence the 'transitional' season

 

So not rocket science then, just not pushing on as well as we could while we chase reorganisation and the x factor on the filed to keep Sky etc interested in the sport - they used to show the reserve grade matches and some of them were very good matches as well

 

Inter region academies could bring in Cumbria and the South west as well as the south east and the traditional heartlands - if I was Lenighan I would set up the one in London now, Saints could aim for Cumbria for instance and the Rhinos get the RU heartland in the South West as the best and most obvious brand to sell there. You could go on but 12 teams in SL should equal 12 regions and if the SL club isn't up to it then they shouldn't be in SL - there you go new criteria probably more worthy than any other at this present time!

 

None of this is new, its embryonic to an extent but need sto be accelerated - expansion of the talent pool does not need to be by expanding SL level because those teams are currently entrenched like NFL teams they are virtual franchises anyway

 

International expansion works youth expansion and regional academies will work lower league professional expansion is a different thing entirely and does not significantly expand the talent pool

[Tonka]

Sorry Futtocks but I think you are looking for a silver lining there.

The British sides have been utterly outplayed to the point of it being embarrassing the last two nights.

[Futtocks]

Sorry Futtocks but I think you are looking for a silver lining there.

The British sides have been utterly outplayed to the point of it being embarrassing the last two nights.

I haven't claimed otherwise. The form that St Helens and Wigan showed last season wouldn't have got a win against this year's Roosters and Broncos, but it would certainly have been more of a contest. With a season under Bennett, the Broncos certainly look far more potent than they did in last year's series, but Wigan contributed to tonight's score difference with unimaginative attack and error after error. 

 

But you can't deny that all three SL clubs in the series are having a shockingly poor run by last season's standards. Even if Wigan are unbeaten, they haven't really dominated against the flaky Catalans in the mud or an understrength Huddersfield.

[ParraEelsNRL]

[GaryO]

1. We have three teams in the series that are nowhere near as good as they were at the end of last season.

2. Brisbane have had the benefit of a whole season under Bennett

Futtocks, your first statement is completely utter bunkum, you are measuring these three teams against each other and the other SL teams in our comp, they will have performed better as they along with the Bulls are still the most successful teams we have had since '97.

Secondly, so what, Bennett is part of the system that is the NRL albeit granted probably the best, but this thread is about measuring the game in both countries against each other, and present day they are light years in front.

[GeordieSaint]

After the 1997 series many people threw their hands in the air and declared 'something must be done'. But it seems to have spent the majority of that time arguing about P&R and other stuff. The person or persons (and the money) required to make the hard decisions has not come forward . I think Richard Lewis was close to this but IMO was forced out as many saw their cosy cartel in danger of being affected.

So its highly unlikely that anything will genuinely change as the will isn't there in the right places.

Absolutely agree on most of that. The £200m new TV deal should help massively but can't see Wood, Rimmer, McManus, Hetherington and the rest of the cartel wanting genuine chnage.

[shaun mc]

If the game carries on as it has done in the past 5 years, the gap will get wider.

 

The talent pool is shrinking, and will continue to do so. Dual Reg and the dropping of reserve teams has had the main impact. There are good, young players who will have played relatively little Rugby League in the past 2 years - a few first team games and a few out on Dual Reg. If ever we wanted to find a way to hinder player development it is this, it impacts player development and welfare as both a Rugby League player and a person. And not just at the top tier either.

 

I'm in agreement with the principle of the new system of possible promotion for a Championship team. However, this has created too many games and consequently player squads have to be larger. Thus exacerbating the issue above. More players getting less game time and less development.

 

We need to create a window in the season for SL teams to go over to Australia every other year. So that requires 3 weeks. I addition, we need to have internationals mid season and not tagged onto the end of the season, playing in the winter, reducing the off season for players. The top coaches and sports scientists need to be consulted about what length of pre-season is a minimum, not club chairmen, who seem to hold all the cards presently.

[Futtocks]

Futtocks, your first statement is completely utter bunkum, you are measuring these three teams against each other and the other SL teams in our comp, they will have performed better as they along with the Bulls are still the most successful teams we have had since '97.

Secondly, so what, Bennett is part of the system that is the NRL albeit granted probably the best, but this thread is about measuring the game in both countries against each other, and present day they are light years in front.

As for the first statement, do you really think the current Leeds side look like SL winners, based on their two beatings so far? St Helens fans have been complaining (with good reason) for a while about the way their team is playing, and Wigan have underwhelmed too. Past success is no guarantee of form and Leeds are below Wakefield at the bottom of the league. 

 

I am not claiming that we are not behind the NRL in every area, but that those three teams are off their 2015 pace and that made the scorelines and performances worse in comparison than expected. But I'm talking about losing to the Roosters and Broncos by a 10-20 point margin instead of a 30+ loss.

[GeordieSaint]

If the game carries on as it has done in the past 5 years, the gap will get wider.

 

The talent pool is shrinking, and will continue to do so. Dual Reg and the dropping of reserve teams has had the main impact. There are good, young players who will have played relatively little Rugby League in the past 2 years - a few first team games and a few out on Dual Reg. If ever we wanted to find a way to hinder player development it is this, it impacts player development and welfare as both a Rugby League player and a person. And not just at the top tier either.

 

I'm in agreement with the principle of the new system of possible promotion for a Championship team. However, this has created too many games and consequently player squads have to be larger. Thus exacerbating the issue above. More players getting less game time and less development.

 

We need to create a window in the season for SL teams to go over to Australia every other year. So that requires 3 weeks. I addition, we need to have internationals mid season and not tagged onto the end of the season, playing in the winter, reducing the off season for players. The top coaches and sports scientists need to be consulted about what length of pre-season is a minimum, not club chairmen, who seem to hold all the cards presently.

I agree. A standard has to be set across the game on club structures and adhered to ruthlessly by the RFL; if you don't meet it, you aren't in the top division. All clubs should have to run U19, U21 and reserve sides and feed into their local community and school areas to develop the game. The season should be shorter (Mar-Oct). The whole game over here needs professionalising from the playing structures to coaching but I can't see it happening as certain people and interests are on the gravy train.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Hopefully coaches across here will sit and review those games, look at start they do that we don't do, and work on it.

We need to keep these matches. Clubs have no need to change their approach if it gets then wins in SL. If they want to avoid that embarrassment again, they're gonna have to pay a lot differently.

[Futtocks]

Yes, someone, somewhere, will have to realise that sometimes less is more.

But with club interests ruling the roost, nothing will change. The main irony being that if the whole sport of RL benefitted from a stronger overall game, then so would these self same clubs.

The trouble being that several people will have to come to that realisation or progress will be vetoed. And some of the poorer clubs will be desperate not to lose short-term income, even if it promises better times in the future.

[shaun mc]

Or we can make Rugby League less athletic, physical and attritional in nature, that's one way to beat the Aussies

That would create the need for less players, we can shrink Rugby League to 6 teams in SL, playing in each other 5 times, and 2 million per week playing tig and pass would satisy the participation targets and cost nothing, so thayt more can be diverted to the top 6

The club chairman would say that would produce better players with more spent on them, as they will get their hands on 3 million plus of Sky moolah

[St Reatham]

I know it would be impossible to implement, but to have any idea of how the best teams in SL compare to the best in the NRL, the games need to be played after the respective Grand Finals.

[Farmduck]

Super League has most definatly moved on from '97, the problem is we have not moved on at the pace the Antipodians have, and dare I say it they are in overdrive in respect of keeping on improving whilst we are in first gear.

 

You know the saddest part about that? For quite a few years, there was a lot more money in SL than NRL. The big money era in NRL started, ironically, with the (alleged) Global Financial Crisis.

[Padge]

To answer the OP's question no, Chairman Mo was right. Until we realise (confront) it we will be second rate.