New York City & Dublin to join the league?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Where were these clubs during the licensing era?

Or is all this expansion because we're letting them into our structure and work their way up?

 

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

Can we not handle 2 things at once? How would the success or failure of a Dublin side affect Toronto? Maybe if the RFL were directing funds towards it, but they aren't. If any potential investors came foward and the the RFL said "come back in 5 years, Toronto were here first" it would be lunacy.

We let 4 in in one go last time and 1 went belly up before kick off.

Proof of concept is a good idea. Just letting a load of new clubs in iant necessarily the way to go. Where will all the players come from? Will the costs of running a lower league with multiple overseas teams be prohibitive?  Questions that need to be answered and a lot will be learnt from Torontos first season.

We have rished so many times and never really expanded. Only Catalans wasnt rushed and look at the difference.

[owls]

I am a staunch expansionist and want the sport to spread out to new areas,

but we are getting ahead of ourselves, Toronto has been a pleasant surprise but lets see how they progress in the next 2 years before we start sticking pins in maps,

2 top French teams for me is a necessity for now,and if Toronto is a success then a second Canadian team in Montreal would be the way to go,all teams need a local rival,

a complete restructuring of the set up is needed, then who knows what could happen,

maybe just maybe we can become a true global sport,

[Bob8]

6 hours ago, walter sobchak said:

Personally I'd like to see another Canadian team rather than a US based team as Canada has shown far more potential than the US.

It is Montreal that have a team getting it going, rather than New York.

Assessing management teams to make a viable Dublin bid is like me assessing the Victoria Secrets Angels to consider which one I will allow to spend the night with me.

 

[Bob8]

4 minutes ago, owls said:

I am a staunch expansionist and want the sport to spread out to new areas,

....

Since when?

[owls]

7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Since when?

Bob, I think you have me mixed up with someone else, I am not from the heartlands, and if you look at all my posts you will see that, I have always wanted a 2nd French team, a top team in Cardiff or Swansea, and a team in the West Midlands,

 

[Bob8]

4 minutes ago, owls said:

Bob, I think you have me mixed up with someone else, I am not from the heartlands, and if you look at all my posts you will see that, I have always wanted a 2nd French team, a top team in Cardiff or Swansea, and a team in the West Midlands,

Fair enough!

[hadson]

1 hour ago, owls said:

Bob, I think you have me mixed up with someone else, I am not from the heartlands, and if you look at all my posts you will see that, I have always wanted a 2nd French team, a top team in Cardiff or Swansea, and a team in the West Midlands,

 

And i'd also add another team in the East Midlands for a Midlands derby 

[londonrlfan]

3 hours ago, East Coast Tiger said:

The New York thing is real. There is an interested party there who wants a franchise but may not have the cash of Toronto yet. New York has three of the top USARL north teams at the moment and a another new club is starting next year. It is pretty much the hub for RL in the US at amateur level now, more so than Philadelphia or Jacksonville. Not that amateur clubs are necessary for a pro club to exist.

Dublin is apparently more a case of wishful thinking that the RFL is willing to consider if they find financial backing. That's what the article was getting at.

Interesting. The thing with NYC though, is there's no real stadium there and must of the clubs play in New Jersey. There's that Pier 40 on the banks of the Hudson that NY Knights play in, would that be acceptable for League 1? It surely wouldn't for SL, but it would be a class place to have a match in. 

 

[damp squib]

Bray is in Wicklow so I don't think a Dublin branded team could be based there.

The ideal location for me would be Bohemian F.C. ground Dalymount Park which is very central, council owned and due to be redeveloped into a modern 10,000 seater stadium. The problem is the League of Ireland is a summer league and Bohs are likely to be sharing with Shelbourne so there may not be room for another tenant. The redevelopment probably won't be done for another few years anyway so it's probably not an option. It's a real shame though because if there's anywhere that could recreate Toronto's Lamport stadium craft beer/hipster vibe in Dublin it would be here.

An alternative is Leinster's ground the RDS Arena which is being redeveloped into a 20,000 + stadium. It would be free in the summer but it's too big and Rugby Union ground zero so probably not a good idea.

Anyway the cost of setting up a team in Dublin would be similar to London so I really can't see this happening at all without serious money behind it and as I've said before, the Irish sports market is pretty much saturated.

[JoneslessBishop]

I hadn't suggested Bray is ideal for a Sublin team Squib, but in previous threads Irish posters has suggested that it is more accessible from the airport due to traffic than Dublin city centre, and it is where the international team has put down roots and got good sponsorship. Given the Irish RL have stated they are 'knocking on (the League 1) door' that seems the most suitable location to discuss

[londonrlfan]

If they were targeting Ireland, Bray would be a better shout than Dublin as there would be less competition. Although I believe GAA goes on over the summer, so where would they target fan and players? From what I've seen, Irish union fans aren't very complimentary towards league, so they might not be the best target. This is why I think Belfast would be better. 

[roughyedspud]

4 hours ago, East Coast Tiger said:

The New York thing is real. There is an interested party there who wants a franchise but may not have the cash of Toronto yet. New York has three of the top USARL north teams at the moment and a another new club is starting next year. It is pretty much the hub for RL in the US at amateur level now, more so than Philadelphia or Jacksonville. Not that amateur clubs are necessary for a pro club to exist.

Dublin is apparently more a case of wishful thinking that the RFL is willing to consider if they find financial backing. That's what the article was getting at.

Dublin is the more likely one of the Dublin,New York options...

The RLi have,by the looks of it,got their domestic situation on a stable footing,the next logical step is a team in league one...to supplement the domestic league....

[jim_57]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

We let 4 in in one go last time and 1 went belly up before kick off.

Proof of concept is a good idea. Just letting a load of new clubs in iant necessarily the way to go. Where will all the players come from? Will the costs of running a lower league with multiple overseas teams be prohibitive?  Questions that need to be answered and a lot will be learnt from Torontos first season.

We have rished so many times and never really expanded. Only Catalans wasnt rushed and look at the difference.

All fair calls and questions. I just don't think turning away investors is a good idea just because someone beat them to it. I would hope if any such potential groups exist, which very much remains to be seen, they wouldn't just be told to "sod off for a few years we have Toronto to focus on."

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

Dublin is the more likely one of the Dublin,New York options...

The RLi have,by the looks of it,got their domestic situation on a stable footing,the next logical step is a team in league one...to supplement the domestic league....

To me, Dublin and NY would be completely different models.

Dublin would be akin to the Welsh teams, or even Skolars, that is to create the next tier of a player devolpment pathway by offering semi-pro rugby for domestic Irish players, but not necessarily huge crowds at first.

NY would be firmly in the Wolf pack model - fully pro from the start with English/Aussie players - heavily funded aiming to draw thousands and find a TV deal.

Both very welcome, but it still seems crazy that two such different set ups would start in the same division.

I never saw the point of TW in League 1, so let's not repeat the same silliness with NY, Montreal etc

[JoneslessBishop]

Agreed Toby. Irish team defiant Alex one for organic growth but one that could be supplemented by heritage players to make them competitive. The more competitive they are, the more Irish players will take up RL, and the more organic growth. But there should be a core, admittedly small initially, or real Irish players.

New York/ Montreal are more a franchise approach. That's not to say they get parachuted into SL or buy a current 'franchise'. The Championship might be a good start following a post-2018 restructure, which now seems most likey (according to Back Chat), as long as investors are ready, or whenever they are. Hopefully Toronto are in SL by then and are this proof of concept.

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

I might be wrong, but I would hope the people involved in the Toronto Wolfpack would get involved in expansion teams.

I can't decide if the Wolfpack have been a success so far because of the RFL or despite the RFL (I'm sure they're all well intentioned people at the RFL, but you do have to question them sometimes)?

In fact I'm hoping Perez might bring some much needed NA can-do attitude and nous to the whole sport (no disrespect to the hardworking administrators who help make everything happen in the UK).

[Bob8]

Unless there is a capable and committed management and investors, then the locations is irrelevant. 

If there is a capable and committed management and investors, then the location has to be merely not terrible (i.e. limited customer base and little wealth e.g. Bridgend).

[jim_57]

4 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Unless there is a capable and committed management and investors, then the locations is irrelevant. 

If there is a capable and committed management and investors, then the location has to be merely not terrible (i.e. limited customer base and little wealth e.g. Bridgend).

For the Toronto model that is exactly right. Toronto was as far flung as any potential new team in league-1 3 years ago. An equivalent could never pop up or 2 could pop up tomorrow in Paris/New York/Moscow/Philadelphia/Istanbul/Berlin/Dublin/Madrid/you name it. What has happened with Toronto could never have been planned for, but the RFL would be mad not to give them their chance.

[damp squib]

JB - To get to Bray from the airport you have to cross the city anyway so it's definitely not more convenient than the city centre. Bray is also a small town so you're limiting your potential fan base. Also the Bray Wanderers F.C. chairman is kicking up a massive (and embarrassing) fuss at the moment trying to get the council to allow him to sell the ground. The whole situation is a bit of a shambles and not exactly a stable foundation for a new RL club.

londonrlan - I don't see why union fans in Belfast would be any more favourably inclined towards league? We shouldn't be targeting union fans in any case and Dublin is where the money and population are.

Roughyhead - the domestic scene still has the same fundamental problem it's always had. All the teams are offshoots of RU clubs and play during the short RU off-season with RU players.

Toby - The Welsh/Southern English model would definitely not work. Think of all the travel difficulties for clubs currently in League 1 and throw the sea, a border and an unfavourable exchange rate on top of that. Presumably under this organic model the Dublin team would not be expected to cover travel costs so I can't see the other League 1 teams being too happy. It's the Toronto model or nothing I think.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, damp squib said:

It's the Toronto model or nothing I think.

This.

RL isn't in the position to fund its own expansion projects, and has upset the balance of a lot of traditional fans by trying to bend the rules for expansion teams (ie. letting them start at different parts of the pyramid, exemption from relegation, etc).

These self-funding projects are great for RL. It costs them nothing and they start at the same point as everyone else so the traditionalists can't complain. The slow-burning build may actually be a good way to get people in board too (if you give someone what they want straight away, why would they continue to invest their time? And if it goes wrong, because they've invested more time in it they're more likely to wait longer than to give up on it).

 

Like I said on another thread, there needs to be a strategy for all of these new clubs because stuffing them all in one league will not help the English game in the long run. They need to say for example  "should x amount of clubs make it, we will create a second top flight league for them and a Champions League comp between them".

[The Daddy]

Steve Mascord has posted a couple of updates about this on Twitter saying that the NYC bid team already have a backer and it's the Wolfpack people who are actually behind it. He says they've written to all people involved in New York rugby league to tell them. 

Also confirmed that the Dublin bid is looking for a backer. 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

7 minutes ago, The Daddy said:

Steve Mascord has posted a couple of updates about this on Twitter saying that the NYC bid team already have a backer and it's the Wolfpack people who are actually behind it. He says they've written to all people involved in New York rugby league to tell them. 

Also confirmed that the Dublin bid is looking for a backer. 

You need to play a couple of internationals in NYC with the USA or some Super League games before even considering committing to a project.

Even Wolfpack v Super League team as an option.

If that is not seen as feasible then you have ask if what you are doing is credible.

Same goes for Ireland.

Failure to plan, is planning to fail.

 

[damp squib]

14 minutes ago, The Daddy said:

Also confirmed that the Dublin bid is looking for a backer. 

In other words it's a nothing story.

[londonrlfan]

2 hours ago, damp squib said:

londonrlan - I don't see why union fans in Belfast would be any more favourably inclined towards league? We shouldn't be targeting union fans in any case and Dublin is where the money and population are.

I'm probably wrong, but I thought GAA wasn't that big in Northern Ireland and it was just football (soccer) that was big. That would leave the summer free for RL to get a stranglehold.