Craig Hall back from Canada

[GUBRATS]

Rumours Craig Hall has signed for Leigh , creating speculation that players aren't happy with their fixture format

Maybe we'll see Toronto fans having an issue with Leigh 

[DavidM]

Good signing , always liked him as a player

[Krzzystuff]

Leigh are poaching all our players! what have we ever done to them? Bunch of TWP wannabees! 

Great signing for them and a great show of understanding for TWP to allow him to leave. a lot more bodies needed in Toronto still, just added 1 player overall.

I believe announcements will be made post WC

[RayCee]

1 hour ago, Krzzystuff said:

I believe announcements will be made post WC

I wonder if Mitchel Pierce from the Roosters may be a possibility now that Cooper Kronk has signed for the Chooks? I am a hopeless dreamer.

[Captain Survival]

I am a bit surprised at this loss - I don't think it speaks that well for Craig as he had to have known what he was getting into when he first signed given the very public ambitions of the club.  What did he think was going to happen as TWP progressed up the ranks?

I value his contributions to TWP but I am a bit underwhelmed.

TWP still needs quite a number of bodies.

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, Captain Survival said:

I am a bit surprised at this loss - I don't think it speaks that well for Craig as he had to have known what he was getting into when he first signed given the very public ambitions of the club.  What did he think was going to happen as TWP progressed up the ranks?

I value his contributions to TWP but I am a bit underwhelmed.

TWP still needs quite a number of bodies.

It does need a number of bodies.  Not just for this year, but so they do not have to start building a Super League team at the end of this season (assuming it all goes according to plan).  Hopefully, there will be a great deal of activity post-World Cup.

[Damien]

I don't know the ins and out with work permits etc but Toronto could make some great signings from teams in the World Cup. PNG in particular. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't know the ins and out with work permits etc but Toronto could make some great signings from teams in the World Cup. PNG in particular. 

And so could a lot if other teams,

Wire have had a massive reaction to being in the bottom 4, Leigh have virtually ditched a full squad and still looking to replace them, Widnes need new blood, Catalan are on the aqusition trail, Salford need to sign as do Huddersfield, Hull KR I do not believe are finished yet they need more quality to compete in the SL and any of the other Championship clubs that have ambition to compete for the top 4.

It sems to me that some believe the RL world is circling around Canada, wait until the "expected" arrival of the other N. American entities come into being and a conservative estimate says another 250 - 300 players are required, unlike some I do not believe it is manageable. 

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

And so could a lot if other teams,

Wire have had a massive reaction to being in the bottom 4, Leigh have virtually ditched a full squad and still looking to replace them, Widnes need new blood, Catalan are on the aqusition trail, Salford need to sign as do Huddersfield, Hull KR I do not believe are finished yet they need more quality to compete in the SL and any of the other Championship clubs that have ambition to compete for the top 4.

It sems to me that some believe the RL world is circling around Canada, wait until the "expected" arrival of the other N. American entities come into being and a conservative estimate says another 250 - 300 players are required, unlike some I do not believe it is manageable. 

It is the biggest weakness.  We are relying on the British league staying much weaker than the Australian one.  

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It is the biggest weakness.  We are relying on the British league staying much weaker than the Australian one.  

Of course it is Bob, also heard that David Taylor is having second thoughts about his impending move to the UK/Canada and is questioning his contract.

[Farmduck]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't know the ins and out with work permits etc but Toronto could make some great signings from teams in the World Cup. PNG in particular. 

Don't forget that most of the better players at the WC are already signed. I'd definitely talk to Corey Makelim from the US team. He's only on a second-tier deal in OZ and he's been very consistent in a weak team. Most of the Lebanon squad is playing in Ron Massey Cup or NSW Cup so they would P/T.

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Farmduck said:

Don't forget that most of the better players at the WC are already signed. I'd definitely talk to Corey Makelim from the US team. He's only on a second-tier deal in OZ and he's been very consistent in a weak team. Most of the Lebanon squad is playing in Ron Massey Cup or NSW Cup so they would P/T.

Toronto are full time and would easily outpay what guys were getting in the Queensland Cup or NSW Cup are getting. 

[Harry Stottle]

47 minutes ago, Damien said:

Toronto are full time and would easily outpay what guys were getting in the Queensland Cup or NSW Cup are getting. 

Of course they would possibly offer them more money than the presently earn as those said players also have other jobs, they most probably have a mortgage and most probably other dependants relying on their income, so Toronto will not only have to house them in Canada they will also have to provide them with accomodation virtually full time, something that they do not need to do with those who live in Britain, there is much more financial accountabillity to be taken into consideration than just signing players from down under.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Of course they would possibly offer them more money than the presently earn as those said players also have other jobs, they most probably have a mortgage and most probably other dependants relying on their income, so Toronto will not only have to house them in Canada they will also have to provide them with accomodation virtually full time, something that they do not need to do with those who live in Britain, there is much more financial accountabillity to be taken into consideration than just signing players from down under.

I was actually more thinking of the likes of PNG players rather than Australians. If the likes of Sheffield Eagles can attract PNG internationals than I'm sure Toronto can. 

[Bob8]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Of course they would possibly offer them more money than the presently earn as those said players also have other jobs, they most probably have a mortgage and most probably other dependants relying on their income, so Toronto will not only have to house them in Canada they will also have to provide them with accomodation virtually full time, something that they do not need to do with those who live in Britain, there is much more financial accountabillity to be taken into consideration than just signing players from down under.

Indeed.  

Toronto and comparable clubs do face a recruitment challenge once they have to compete in Super League.  They have to get the right people in the right position.  I had a poster claiming I was not aware of this issue, I am, but that does not make it straight forward.  

As long as the British economy is weak, this will be easier.  The best British players will be in the NRL and Aussies can be brought over easily enough to compete.  The issue will be if the British economy improves.  A lot might depend on Brexit!

[The Parksider]

22 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It sems to me that some believe the RL world is circling around Canada, wait until the "expected" arrival of the other N. American entities come into being and a conservative estimate says another 250 - 300 players are required, unlike some I do not believe it is manageable. 

Perez does believe recruitment is manageable, it doesn’t need any extra players.  The plan is for each heavily backed North American club to buy up the best players available outside Superleague, who recently rejected any more than 12 clubs in SL due to quality player shortage.

Perez projects “5-6 North American clubs” getting in Superleague over the coming years leading up to their world cup through promotion in which the relegated English clubs will be replaced by the Americans and lose their SKY funding and release their players for transfer.

Craig Hall is an SL quality player who went to Canada who is part of the plan, that he’s rumoured to be unhappy with the travelling is the first crack in the Perez plan of playing out a Superleague over 3,500 miles. When the first Toronto posts landed on this board this was the major issue that worried posters on here, and it won't go away, unless the tectonic plates move quickly and bring the continents together. As Brian McDermott said of London’s collapse, he found it hard to recruit players because of the 200 mile gap.

The puzzlement at Toronto’s recruitment freeze is more head in the sand stuff. Superleague did not make any welcome noises over the prospect of Toronto getting promoted this coming season, the only comment was “no away fans” and we await the strong possibility Superleague returns to licensing. So forget the "economy" and "brexit” stuff, it’s the problem of Toronto not currently being able to guarantee SL quality players that Toronto will get into Superleague even if they smash their way through the championship with their coal train, whom you say wants to re-schedule.

Toronto recruitment looks like it is frozen until SL announces it's intentions going forwards.

[Harry Stottle]

58 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Perez does believe recruitment is manageable, it doesn’t need any extra players.  The plan is for each heavily backed North American club to buy up the best players available outside Superleague, who recently rejected any more than 12 clubs in SL due to quality player shortage.

Perez projects “5-6 North American clubs” getting in Superleague over the coming years leading up to their world cup through promotion in which the relegated English clubs will be replaced by the Americans and lose their SKY funding and release their players for transfer.

Craig Hall is an SL quality player who went to Canada who is part of the plan, that he’s rumoured to be unhappy with the travelling is the first crack in the Perez plan of playing out a Superleague over 3,500 miles. When the first Toronto posts landed on this board this was the major issue that worried posters on here, and it won't go away. As Brian McDermott said of London’s collapse, he found it hard to recruit players because of the 200 mile gap.

The puzzlement at Toronto’s recruitment freeze is more head in the sand stuff. Superleague did not make any welcome noises over the prospect of Toronto getting promoted this coming season, the only comment was “no away fans” and we await the strong possibility Superleague returns to licensing. So forget the "economy" and "brexit” nonsense, it’s the problem of Toronto not currently being able to guarantee SL quality players that Toronto will get into Superleague even if they smash their way through the championship.

Toronto recruitment looks like it is frozen until SL announces it's intentions going forwards.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, I consider that there are at least 7 clubs requiring or needing new and indeed better players to bolster their rosters, 6 of those teams to help maintain their SL status beyond 2018, additionally Leigh have stated their intention to make a quick return and are recruiting to do so, albeit if they do acheive their ambition I think they will need to replenish again in '19, I have not yet included the TWP in the acquisition trail that will make 8 RFL clubs, plus those other Championship clubs who will want to secure a top 4 finish.

You mention a return to licensing, in my opinion that could be the lifeline that the N. American dream could hang on to, I do not consider for one moment that under the present system any team can be complacent in their on field performance they have to be competitive, they need to secure SL status on the field of play, in licensing do they really need to put in the same effort, no I don't think so, I also think it would lower the standards of the product. 

Licensing would also release more players to the market, that would be good for the Americans but for how many teams, 1 maybe 2 and at what standard? 

I am still eagearly awaiting the announcement for '19 and onwards, we still have the 8's next season, and so we havd to carry on regardless, but after? the silence for me speaks volumes that it is not a cut and dried scenario there is much to consider not so much from the RFL but from the SL board.

[Blind side johnny]

On 11/8/2017 at 5:55 AM, Captain Survival said:

I am a bit surprised at this loss - I don't think it speaks that well for Craig as he had to have known what he was getting into when he first signed given the very public ambitions of the club.  What did he think was going to happen as TWP progressed up the ranks?

I value his contributions to TWP but I am a bit underwhelmed.

TWP still needs quite a number of bodies.

Yes, it's not as if he is the kind of player to keep switching clubs is it?

[Blind side johnny]

On 11/8/2017 at 7:38 AM, Bob8 said:

It does need a number of bodies.  Not just for this year, but so they do not have to start building a Super League team at the end of this season (assuming it all goes according to plan).  Hopefully, there will be a great deal of activity post-World Cup.

Brian Noble said that they will be recruiting a 30 man sqad to cope with the travelling pressures. He didn't mention any recruitment squeeze.

[Bob8]

5 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Brian Noble said that they will be recruiting a 30 man sqad to cope with the travelling pressures. He didn't mention any recruitment squeeze.

It is just speculation on my part.  I have great hopes for TWP and see recruitment as their major challenge.  

I would imagine that they are not looking to stay in Championship for more than one season, which means ensuring they have a Super League standard squad for 2019.  They have the money for it, it seems.  I wish them well!

[LeeF]

Hall is probably just disappointed at having to play home games in Canada when he expected to be playing in Manchester or at Odsal 

Anyway it's just another nailed on example of the North American Dream going up in smoke 

[The Parksider]

23 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

You mention a return to licensing, in my opinion that could be the lifeline that the N. American dream could hang on to.....

Licensing would also release more players to the market, that would be good for the Americans 

I am still eagearly awaiting the announcement for '19 and onwards.....

How do you make out it's a lifeline? N.America wants automatic promotion which suits any rich club and Perez has stated that's how they intend to get in SL. Licences were for 3 years last time. If Perez does not get a licence Toronto are out for 3 years.

Licensing may release no players if they decide the same 12 get licenses. If not any players released will have the option of 3,500 mile round trips or another job on the M62 including I'd guess at some point Bradford Bulls.

And once again the realities are always ignored as the reason for the intended changes was for Superleague to take back the SKY monies given to Championship clubs in annual grants and prize money that the current system is based on.

That then raises the question of the Championship salary cap. The semi-pro Championship salary cap used to be £300K, once the new system went in, the top Championship clubs could get £500K prize money from this current system  and the cap was raised to £1,000,000 so they could build their team and challenge for Superleague through promotion.

Then when Leigh spent all they could but didn't get anywhere near promotion their chairman agreed with the RFL he could spend more - £1,300,000 and as far as I know the RFL indicated if a club was rich enough and their chairman was prepared to gift not loan the money, they could spend the full Superleague salary cap.

Licensing is about far more than where to put the pins in the maps, it includes as Lenegan has stated a revamp of the finances so more SKY money goes into Superleague and less into the Championship. Any sensible analysis of this won't simply assume Toronto Wolfpack will be able to spend the same as Superleague clubs when they are  in the championship, nor can it assume the other Championship clubs will put up with Toronto being allowed to do this thus killing any competition.

I'm afraid the bottom line is certainly that Toronto do not know how much they will be able to spend on their future squads until they are clear on the new structure and the Championship salary cap, otherwise they may be signing contracts they can't pay if these contracts are for more than a year.

If the "silence" speaks volumes, or if Hall and Taylors concerns are any indication,   it may be saying that Superleague bosses are scuppering Toronto's charge by making them hang on until the last minute whilst SL clubs can go on recruiting long term. We can talk "great management" "great investment" and "great venue" all day long but the key here is the players. Currently  the uncertainty protects the SL clubs and frustrates Toronto - they can "have the money for it", but that naively assumes they can spend it.

Superleague has always rightly been about blocking rich men unsettling the balance of competition.....

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

How do you make out its a lifeline

Superleague has always rightly been about blocking rich men unsettling the balance of competition.....

My referance to licencing being a lifeline was about the new to be entities in the N A continent yet to come into being in that I believe there would be more players available given in context to all my post, I stated that if we take away the need to be competitive on the field by having a termed period licence, the clubs who required players to maintain their SL status may be more complacent with no relegation looming and not bother with aquisitions, likewise those with ambition for promotion having a door slammed in their face may put two fingers up and not bother. 

I am completely of the mindset that if the SL and RFL for that matter do decide that a return to licensing is the best way forward, then I think that will be the first germ so to speak that will eventually spread and kill the host, the game has created an interest over the last 3 seasons that effects other clubs other than the top 4 or 5 as we had in the licensing years, that interest may put more bums on seats if Sky took the plunge and showed Championship rugby also, that may increase subscriptions, those two things nay not happen, but take away the competition that we are becomming familiar with and that interest will wane, guaranteed.

[Angelic Cynic]

Yes,I think congratulations are in order to Leigh Centurions for signing an English player from the heartland area at the other end of the M62.

Well done.

Not many locals in the squad,is there?

I blame the expansion clubs...

[The Parksider]

21 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

My referance to licencing being a lifeline was about the new to be entities in the N A continent yet to come into being in that I believe there would be more players available given in context to all my post, I stated that if we take away the need to be competitive on the field by having a termed period licence, the clubs who required players to maintain their SL status may be more complacent with no relegation looming and not bother with aquisitions, 

I am completely of the mindset that if the SL and RFL for that matter do decide that a return to licensing is the best way forward, then I think that will be the first germ so to speak that will eventually spread and kill the host, the game has created an interest over the last 3 seasons that effects other clubs other than the top 4 or 5 as we had in the licensing years, that interest may put more bums on seats if Sky took the plunge and showed Championship rugby also, that may increase subscriptions, those two things nay not happen, but take away the competition that we are becomming familiar with and that interest will wane, guaranteed.

Your trying to say that promotion and relegation is the only "competition" that attracts fans and stimulates players to compete. Every game played is a competition and every place up the league ladder is a competition. The six years of licensing eventually ended with a drop in crowds  that co-incided with top players starting to leave for Australia, but the RFL decided that "promotion & relegation" would boost interest and crowds. 

The first relegation battle did no such thing, crowds peeled away massively at Bull, Broncos and Trinity. Warnings had been given over the system (which was a copy of a Swiss soccer system that failed) and were ignored. What attracts the fans and boosts the TV ratings is the top teams and the top fixtures - not the stuff in the middle. Interest wanes when your club isn't winning matches and is heading for relegation. Increases in championship crowds for clubs going for promotion  are minimal and have no real value to SL, and no value to SKY beyond filler.

Six chairmen never voted for this system and three only voted for it as it had advance TV payments attached, another club abstained. Your analysis has been tested this last three years and the decision is it has failed, and wasted £Millions of the SKY contract used to pay Championship clubs to try to make it work,  hence SL chairmen want to change back, thus increasing their own income in a vote that could well be unanimous, and has the added bonus for them of blocking a hostile North American takeover.