World Cup venues to be announced next Tuesday...

[Cowardly Fan]

We surely can't hit the target if we have a semi-final double-header.  The semi-final sold 10k more than the Etihad capacity last time, so I'd definitely be against holding it there as a double header.  I guess it could work as the England venue for a semi-final, but even that seems overly cautious to me.  

[Toby Chopra]

20 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

We surely can't hit the target if we have a semi-final double-header.  The semi-final sold 10k more than the Etihad capacity last time, so I'd definitely be against holding it there as a double header.  I guess it could work as the England venue for a semi-final, but even that seems overly cautious to me.  

Exactly. The cricket World Cup among others has had teams guarenteed venues for certain teams if they progress, no reason we couldn't. 

No double headers, England guarenteed to play in Old Trafford semi if they make it, final definitely at Wembley. 

I really do feel this world cup is make or break for us, get it right and we might regain a place at the top table of British sport. But we have to make it look like its a world class event, peaking with a final at the national stadium, in the national capital. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Cowardly Fan said:

We surely can't hit the target if we have a semi-final double-header.  The semi-final sold 10k more than the Etihad capacity last time, so I'd definitely be against holding it there as a double header.  I guess it could work as the England venue for a semi-final, but even that seems overly cautious to me.  

We can however get a further 16k in Wembley. 

The opener had 44k in, so a stadium needs to be chosen for growth.

I'd go for 74k at Old Trafford.

The England games need to deliver growth too.

3 England Games (inc opener) had 93k last time. If we got 74k at Old Trafford, 55k at St James, and 37k at Leeds, that adds a huge number onto 2013.

[deluded pom?]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

I really worry about this world cup, there will be a lack of big games in the group stages because of the change of structure, Rimmer has no idea what he is doing with anything. 

You can’t pin this one on Rimmer. Wood as the RLIF CEO yes, Rimmer as the RFL CEO no.

[Cowardly Fan]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

We can however get a further 16k in Wembley. 

The opener had 44k in, so a stadium needs to be chosen for growth.

I'd go for 74k at Old Trafford.

The England games need to deliver growth too.

3 England Games (inc opener) had 93k last time. If we got 74k at Old Trafford, 55k at St James, and 37k at Leeds, that adds a huge number onto 2013.

True, but if they are aiming to double the attendance then a c25% max growth in the semi-final seems too conservative.  

I agree about the England games being an opportunity, and definitely with Old Trafford for the opener.  I'm less sure about Leeds - might be good to have one group game in London for a few reasons.    

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

True, but if they are aiming to double the attendance then a c25% max growth in the semi-final seems too conservative.  

I agree about the England games being an opportunity, and definitely with Old Trafford for the opener.  I'm less sure about Leeds - might be good to have one group game in London for a few reasons.    

We aren't aiming to double it. We've already lowered expectations to 750k.

I'd love us to be really bold and have Wembley as the opener and final- back to 1995. We got 40k and 68k for those, I'd like to think we can smash those numbers.

[Chris22]

I'm trying to think of the venues/cities that have actually declared an interest. This link suggests we have 40 applicants - https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/15323/11410415/2021-rugby-league-world-cup-organisers-aim-for-biggest-and-best-ever

In terms of applicants, this is what I have so far, anyone additions?

1. Bolton
2. Brighton (I'm sure I recall reading something about this but can't find confirmation?)
3. Bristol (Ashton Gate)
4. Cornwall
5. Coventry
6. Doncaster
7. Huddersfield (? - I assume, although I've seen nothing about a bid)
8. Hull
9. Leeds (Elland Road and Headingley)
10. Liverpool (Anfield)
11. London (Wembley, Olympic Stadium and there was speculation about Twickenham)
12. Manchester (Etihad and Old Trafford)
13. Middlesbrough (and Darlington)
14. Newcastle (I wonder if this includes Kingston Park)
15. Preston
16. Sheffield (Bramall Lane)
17. St Helens
18. Warrington
19. Wigan (including Leigh, sorry Leythers!)
20. Workington
21. York

There was also speculation that Limerick, Avignon and Perpignan may want to host fixtures, although this is unlikely.

We will have 24 of 31 matches in the north, which is somewhat restrictive, but pleasingly this still allows scope for expansion in to non-rugby league cities such as Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield.

I've seen a few applicants say that they are bidding for 3 matches. I hope that we do what we did in 2013 and try and spread the tournament as wide as possibly with many venues hosting 1 match. I think crowds would be maximised by limiting the number of matches one stadium hosts.

What I want to see is England group games in Newcastle, Leeds (Elland Road) and London, the England semi-final in Manchester (not bothered which stadium although I'd lean towards the Etihad) and the final at Wembley. I think that its a must to have the final at Wembley.

I'd be tempted to use larger stadiums for the quarter finals than we used last time, maybe in expansion locations, trying to sell the event itself rather than the teams in them. There's plenty of group matches that can be hosted by smaller grounds in traditional heartlands.

[Chris22]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Quarter finals are the most difficult to sell, especially in RL. Short turn-around and time to make sales, generally a couple of blow-outs in there, doesnt have the prestige of a semi-final or final.

We have had as many quarter finals get under 10k as over 20k.

Id be happy to see fewer stadiums used in the group stages and 3 (i.e the non-england ones) quarter finals given to expansion areas

I agree. I wonder if quarter finals may be an easier sell to expansion areas/applicants such as Middlesbrough, Sheffield, Coventry etc than the heartlands?

[Dave T]

One of the key learnings from 2013 according to Sally Bolton was to reduce the number of venues, allowing cities and grounds to host multiple games. Im not the biggest fan but i understand the reduction in effort required. I do think Wire, Saints, Wigan and Leigh is one 'area'

[paulwalker71]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

One of the key learnings from 2013 according to Sally Bolton was to reduce the number of venues, allowing cities and grounds to host multiple games. Im not the biggest fan but i understand the reduction in effort required. I do think Wire, Saints, Wigan and Leigh is one 'area'

I know Sally Bolton is seen as some kind of guru to many, but I really don't understand why reducing the venues helps.

Last time around Bristol got 10K for a Tuesday night game between - let's be honest - two no-hopers. With some decent planning and marketing, there is no reason why they couldn't get 15K in Ashton Gate for a bog-standard group game.

The alternative being suggested, it seems, is to put it in LSV or Craven Park just because it's one of the areas that we are using to keep games together? How does that help? We've seen what happens when you do that - even Australia only pulled about 6K to Craven Park, and surely we aren't going to try midweek at the LSV again!!!

The 'Bristol experience' last time gives us a bit of template. Use expansion areas (which includes the likes of Sheffield, Preston etc) for the lesser group games, as the event itself sells tickets rather than the participating teams themselves. Then go big with large stadiums for England, Australia, NZ and Tonga in the 'Northern Powerhouse' that we are obligated to use because of the funding.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, paulwalker71 said:

I know Sally Bolton is seen as some kind of guru to many, but I really don't understand why reducing the venues helps.

Last time around Bristol got 10K for a Tuesday night game between - let's be honest - two no-hopers. With some decent planning and marketing, there is no reason why they couldn't get 15K in Ashton Gate for a bog-standard group game.

The alternative being suggested, it seems, is to put it in LSV or Craven Park just because it's one of the areas that we are using to keep games together? How does that help? We've seen what happens when you do that - even Australia only pulled about 6K to Craven Park, and surely we aren't going to try midweek at the LSV again!!!

The 'Bristol experience' last time gives us a bit of template. Use expansion areas (which includes the likes of Sheffield, Preston etc) for the lesser group games, as the event itself sells tickets rather than the participating teams themselves. Then go big with large stadiums for England, Australia, NZ and Tonga in the 'Northern Powerhouse' that we are obligated to use because of the funding.

I think one of the benefits is that it allows you to focus your efforts on fewer places. Less resources are required. 

Warrington and Leeds were good examples, but there were poor examples too in 2013. Other sports seem house this approach though.

[paulwalker71]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think one of the benefits is that it allows you to focus your efforts on fewer places. Less resources are required. 

Warrington and Leeds were good examples, but there were poor examples too in 2013. Other sports seem house this approach though.

I feel that's more likely true for soccer, even Union. Rugby League supporters are notoriously tight-fisted, so I think there's a real possibility of picking and choosing. How many people are going to pay go to watch Ireland vs Jamaica at, say, St Helens, having paid to watch England vs Fiji two before at Wigan?

You could argue that we would be targeting new people. But then we could target new people in Coventry or Bristol just as easily - perhaps more so - than in Lancashire or Yorkshire.

I think places like Preston, Middlesborough, York, Sheffield etc offer an intriguing possibility. Still in the Northern Powerhouse area, but a little bit away from the traditional RL areas around the M62. There is potential for attracting new people, whilst also being close enough to attract supporters from nearby RL clubs. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I really worry about this world cup, there will be a lack of big games in the group stages because of the change of structure, Rimmer has no idea what he is doing with anything and the RFL is dirt poor, the international game has taken something of a step backwards over the past few years when it seemed to be doing well (by that i mean in terms of fixtures and organisation) the GB tour is looking a bit of a debacle and the Aussies dont seem overly keen on coming for the ashes tour next year.

I share your concerns about the group stages of this tournament.

We had successful World Cups in 2008 and 2013 thanks to using the Super Groups format, which works well for our sport.

Nigel Wood in his incompetence has decided to scrap the Super Groups and go back to a format similar to that used in the 2000 World Cup, which almost bankrupt the sport.

[Guest]

So BBC say participating teams excludes Ireland but Norway get two chances.

 

[Dave T]

45 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I feel that's more likely true for soccer, even Union. Rugby League supporters are notoriously tight-fisted, so I think there's a real possibility of picking and choosing. How many people are going to pay go to watch Ireland vs Jamaica at, say, St Helens, having paid to watch England vs Fiji two before at Wigan?

You could argue that we would be targeting new people. But then we could target new people in Coventry or Bristol just as easily - perhaps more so - than in Lancashire or Yorkshire.

I think places like Preston, Middlesborough, York, Sheffield etc offer an intriguing possibility. Still in the Northern Powerhouse area, but a little bit away from the traditional RL areas around the M62. There is potential for attracting new people, whilst also being close enough to attract supporters from nearby RL clubs. 

I agree that is a risk, and one of the reasons I am not a fan, but we will have to see what they decide.

[flyingking]

18 hours ago, Wolford6 said:

Obviously, Odsal will get the Final. Not too bothered about the others.

Did the first sentence miss out the words Demand for Payment?

[Wolford6]

2 minutes ago, flyingking said:

Did the first sentence miss out the words Demand for Payment?

Are we going up for Eggheads again?

[GeordieSaint]

6 hours ago, Just Browny said:

I liked GS's suggestion, but with one semi at the Etihad and one at the Ricoh. Stick in an England group game at Anfield.

England Opener - St James Park

2nd Game - Olympic Park

3rd Game - Anfield

England QF - Bramall Lane

England SF - Eithad

Other SF - Coventry

Final - Wembley

Sound about right? 

Not playing a big game at OT may damage our relationship with Man Utd?

 

[M j M]

43 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

England Opener - St James Park 

2nd Game - Olympic Park 

3rd Game - Anfield 

England QF - Bramall Lane 

England SF - Eithad

Other SF - Coventry

Final - Wembley

Sound about right?  

Not playing a big game at OT may damage our relationship with Man Utd? 

 

In terms of guaranteeing big crowds the RFL probably can't afford not to take an England game to Elland Road.

[GeordieSaint]

43 minutes ago, M j M said:

In terms of guaranteeing big crowds the RFL probably can't afford not to take an England game to Elland Road.

I think we’d selling ourselves short at Elland Road for an England group game. That would leave only the QF...

[Just Browny]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

England Opener - St James Park

2nd Game - Olympic Park

3rd Game - Anfield

England QF - Bramall Lane

England SF - Eithad

Other SF - Coventry

Final - Wembley

Sound about right? 

Yes - if we went with that we certainly couldn't be accused of a lack of ambition!

Quote

Not playing a big game at OT may damage our relationship with Man Utd? [/quote]

I don't think so - we will still have played the GF there a few weeks earlier. Even so, I have no problem with that provided we explain clearly that we aren't going because no attempt has been made to make the playing area safe for RL.

[deluded pom?]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Not playing a big game at OT may damage our relationship with Man Utd?

I personally can’t see United being bothered. They will have the GF and it’s contracted for the next couple of years. I don’t think them not having a WC match will bother them much.

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Im not sure i agree with this. Its a question really of who we are going to sell the tickets to.

To take it to the extreme are we going to sell 800k tickets to 800k people or are we more likely to sell 800k tickets to 200k buying 4 each.

Personally i think as much there is scope to attract new fans and casuals and internationals are great for doing that, there is a lot of scope for us to try and upsell and cross sell and increase fans that way.

For instance if we were to go for an England game in newcastle, for that to do well we would need 30k or so fans at an absolute minimum to be travelling up from the heartlands. Thats probably very doable but its also 30k from the heartlands who arent going to be going to games held in the heartlands or anywhere else that weekend. That weekend will be a weekend in Newcastle.

So an alternative would be to try and maximise that 30k and the games they attend. If we put for instance England v Fiji at St James park 6pm or 8pm Saturday we could also put say Samoa v PNG at 1pm on Kingston Park. try and get people travelling up early and get a full 10k sell out there. Maybe put on an Australia game at St James Park on the Sunday and sell people on staying over and taking on both if not all three games.

If we look at England games as the tent pole games, Australia, NZ and maybe Tonga as the 2nd tier games and build around selling big attendances for those games and then cross-selling and up-selling the games around those games we can use them to build a platform and send a few outliers to new areas pretty much risk free. In the example i gave above, if we could sell out Kingston Park, flood newcastle city centre with RL fans watching a 3pm kick-off building up to a sell out england match with 52k and convince maybe 20k to stay for the 2nd match on the sunday, plus some casuals and new fans for a 30k attendance on the sunday we would have 90k for that week and be able to take some risks with the other 5 games that week taking them to new areas and even if we only average 10k (which isnt very ambitious when there would still be NZ, Tonga games on the go) then we will have gotten to 140k for that week and we still arent far off track for our aims.

Repeat that in London being a bit more ambitious with some of the secondary games, and in Manchester and we are well on our way

 

 

I think you are correct about the grouping of the games to allow fans to attend multiple games.

What worked for me personally in 2013 was the Quarter Finals, Friday night at Headingly, Saturday afternoon at Wrexham, Saturday evening at Wigan and Sunday afternoon in Warrington allowed us to attend all 4 and have a great weekend. There is no reason this idea can't be repeated and also used in the group stages, different stadiums maybe but close enough to travel between and scheduled to allow fans to make it from one game to another

[flyingking]

4 hours ago, Wolford6 said:

Are we going up for Eggheads again?

Would love to give it another shot. If we could get a well known name associated with the game, it might increase our chances of selection. Ryan Hall is reported to be an excellent quizzer, Nigel Wiskar claimed he won a virtual million on the computer game version of Millionaire. Other possible choices (and all with degrees) include Jamie Jones-Buchanan (Caribbean heritage so could represent Jamaica) Robbie Hunter-Paul (NZ) and Dr Marwan Koukash (Middle Eastern heritage to represent Lebanon)

[Wolford6]

I  bet Mick Gledhill has got Robbie's phone number

I'm at a quiz  do with Barry Simmons on 12th February, I'll ask about recordings etc.

I think the recording studio  is in Glasgow these days.