Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

[fieldofclothofgold]

Association Football got a March on the Northern Union when they codified their sport whilst " Rugby " was still having its class war. Association Football got the big populated areas and is now in their DNA ,Does Mac actually think RL is going to rival EFL Championship crowds let alone EPL if we go I to big football cities ? And that's only In  Britain. . How far in the future is he looking ? Surely not in the ,lifetime of any in here ?

[RP London]

10 hours ago, Trojan said:

And that's the problem there.  Two clubs so there's never going to be a dominant one.  I'm 73 the last time I remember Sheffield Wednesday being near winning anything was in 1966!

We have our big city clubs.  Hull, they get good crowds, but never fulfil their potential.  Bradford, a very large city, didn't do the Bulls much good.  Sheffield, they even won the CC, but their ground is and their home support is pathetic, their away support is not as good as that. London, been there 40 years and achieved what?  The only big city club in the RFL is Leeds.  On McDermott's theory they should win everything every season.  They don't.

Your memory is truly woeful then... wednesday won the league cup in 1991.. came 3rd in the league in 1992, got to both cup finals in 1993.. finished top 6 throughout the early 90s and played in the UEFA cup at that point too.. my point on sheffield.was that first you questioned if it was a big city, it is. You then question if United is a big club, it is as is Wednesday and also famous. People outside the uk know them, if I'm away and they ask where I am from the second question is normally "United or Wednesday"? Your list wasnt wrong except for putting Sheffield in it.  

Anyway it's not about winning its about exposure and getting people interested by "big city clashes" and places to know about playing each other rather than having to look the town up before you know who is playing. Putting handball on in europe, a game that is good to watch but I know little about, what is likely to get my attention Kiel v frieberg or Munch v Berlin? What, as a sponsor, would attract me? which markets are bigger to get my name out in? etc etc.. I know (as a businessman) what I am looking for, would I look at rl to put my money in at the moment, actually I might because it is a cheap way to hit a demographic (never been asked by sheffield which highlights a point I'll come on to) but have done at Thunder (because one of our products is strong in the north East, never got asked if we wanted to continue, they must have enough money!).. but we are small, the bigger manufacturers in our sector wont look at league because it wont hit the numbers... it is the way of it.

Sheffield Eagles is in a poor state at the moment for a large number of reasons, some out of their control some very much in their control but down to the inability of the people involved. Hopefully improvement is starting to come. 

London is important but has also had major issues over its tenure, moving around London causes massive issues and you are basically restarting the project every time. 

However, when it comes to the league it's probably fair to say it needs some bigger city teams to help its exposure. Extra exposure can then increase it's worth to both sponsors and tv companies. No one will say just plonking them in will solve the issues you have to work hard at it (sheffield and London arguably aren't working hard enough/wise enough at it) and they have to be more than just a name. It's not about the ALL being city names either there is a balance to be had, big city names and traditional big clubs. They also don't have to be instead of clubs we can always look to expand the league. 

At the moment though where are our big clubs, where are our big names? There are a few but there are not enough and McDermott is right in that who is going to pay for small clubs from small towns. Big clubs yes, big towns yes, mix of big towns and small towns but big clubs yes.. we just don't have any of it right now. His theory is not that they should win everything (you obviously haven't listened to him if you think that) it's that they help with exposure and interest levels.. 

Btw I am not saying you kick out small clubs for pins in maps or that you change all the names but I still think he is right and that we have a lot of work to do to help is appeal to big money. But I am more confident that I have been for a while that we may be starting to understand the issue (though I believe the Swinton change of mind is a set back).

[Damien]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

It’s a good game (especially in highlight form) and also has glitz and glamour that we don’t have in sport over here, try as the Premier League might. That’s why it’s popular in the UK, I don’t think the NFL have thrown much money at this country at all since the Monarchs (which was decades ago). 

The NFL lose money on every London match. You need some pretty big pockets to do what they have done and to that scale in a foreign country.

[Eddie]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

The NFL lose money on every London match. You need some pretty big pockets to do what they have done and to that scale in a foreign country.

How do they lose money when 85,000 people are paying £50-100 a pop? Incredible. 

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

How do they lose money when 85,000 people are paying £50-100 a pop? Incredible. 

Because it's an expensive sport with incredible costs.

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Eddie said:

How do they lose money when 85,000 people are paying £50-100 a pop? Incredible. 

It's not about not getting loads in to the coffers but more about how much they spend on the events... they put shed loads on in and around the ground... however saying they make a loss or profit on the london game I would say is tough as extra merch sales in the uk because of interest generated? People wanting to take in a game in the states now? Etc etc are indirect gains

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Can you not get big clubs from small towns? Green Bay Packers in the NFL are based in a city with a population of approx. 105,000, for example. 

I don’t for one minute think Manchester United are a worldwide conglomerate because they’re based in Manchester. I don’t for one minute think kids in Jakarta, Beijing etc are Manchester United “supporters” because of where Manchester United are based and how big the city is. 

On the field, United having roughly 20 years of continual trophies will have attracted people because people like successful sport sides and off the field, marketing, advertising and building their brand across the world will have done it.

 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

55 minutes ago, Damien said:

The NFL lose money on every London match. You need some pretty big pockets to do what they have done and to that scale in a foreign country.

Do they? 

 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Can you not get big clubs from small towns? Green Bay Packers in the NFL are based in a city with a population of approx. 105,000, for example. 

For the 100th time yes you can. But if the NFL was made up of a full roster of Green Bay Packers then it wouldn't be as big would it?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

For the 100th time yes you can. But if the NFL was made up of a full roster of Green Bay Packers then it wouldn't be as big would it?

If your Mum had balls, she’d be your Dad. Semantics. 

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

If your Mum had balls, she’d be your Dad. Semantics. 

No its not though is it. The argument has never been that all clubs from Towns like Cas or Oldham shouldn't be allowed in the league. The point is is that if we had a league made up of exclusively Cas and Oldhams its going to be less valuable to broadcasters and less attractive overall.

 

 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No its not though is it. The argument has never been that all clubs from Towns like Cas or Oldham shouldn't be allowed in the league. The point is is that if we had a league made up of exclusively Cas and Oldhams its going to be less valuable to broadcasters and less attractive overall.

 

 

And that’s rubbish, too. 

[Smudger06]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No its not though is it. The argument has never been that all clubs from Towns like Cas or Oldham shouldn't be allowed in the league. The point is is that if we had a league made up of exclusively Cas and Oldhams its going to be less valuable to broadcasters and less attractive overall.

 

 

But we have got a League full of Cas or Oldhams. With the exception of Leeds & now Toronto. I suppose you could throw a few GB Packers in there such as Hull FC or Catalans Dragons. 

[fieldofclothofgold]

Wigan is not the largest of towns , but it is the most famous RUGBY town in the world . anyone any where mentions Wigan if the other person who has been or heard of Wigan they will automatically think RUGBY . I don't think Mac was meaning the likes of Wigan or Saints when he was talking of expanding into large international cities . They would be an attraction to these fixtures on account of both these clubs heritage .

[Tommygilf]

47 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

But we have got a League full of Cas or Oldhams. With the exception of Leeds & now Toronto. I suppose you could throw a few GB Packers in there such as Hull FC or Catalans Dragons. 

I think you're partly right. I would say that is being reflected in the talk about the new TV deal being smaller, participation numbers down and RL related social media hardly setting the world alight. 

[Tommygilf]

51 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

And that’s rubbish, too. 

Go on then I'll bite, whats rubbish about what I said?

[Trojan]

10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't think licensing was right at all - mainly because there weren't enough clubs deserving of one. I don't think there has been an active campaign against either team though. Indeed it was Leigh, not Toronto, who got the Salary cap changed for the Championship so that they could spend as much as SL. And in any case the team that lost out most from lack of p/r was arguably Sheffield!

 

Thats false though, the media don't. They're on the second biggest subscription sports broadcaster for starters (the Pro14 is on premier too). T'other codes lavishing of interest is almost exclusively on its international game. 

You also, some could say tactically, miss out the not quite so inconsiderable two topflight London teams, Bristol, Cardiff, Dublin, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester (claiming the entire north west) on top of the strong regionally supported sides you mention i.e. Leicester, Bath, Gloucester, Exeter etc.  

I didn't tactically miss out anyone.  I pointed out that the clubs I mention have dominated Union for years.  And they get big crowds, no doubt about that.  And Sky, ITV, Ch5, Ch4 BT and the Beeb all show their games in various comps.  It's true that International Union is a higher profile than international RL, who's fault is that?  But club Union is very big sport these days.  Nothing to do with big cites. Everything to do with RL ignoring the international game, and IMO playing in summer.

[Trojan]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

Your memory is truly woeful then... wednesday won the league cup in 1991.. came 3rd in the league in 1992, got to both cup finals in 1993.. finished top 6 throughout the early 90s and played in the UEFA cup at that point too.. my point on sheffield.was that first you questioned if it was a big city, it is. You then question if United is a big club, it is as is Wednesday and also famous. People outside the uk know them, if I'm away and they ask where I am from the second question is normally "United or Wednesday"? Your list wasnt wrong except for putting Sheffield in it.  

Anyway it's not about winning its about exposure and getting people interested by "big city clashes" and places to know about playing each other rather than having to look the town up before you know who is playing. Putting handball on in europe, a game that's is good to watch but I know little about what is likely to get my attentio Kiel v frieberg or Munch v Berlin? What as a sponsor would attract me which markets are bigger to get my name out in etc etc.. I know (as a businessman) what I am looking for, would I look at rl to out my money in at the moment, actually I might because it is a cheap way to hit a demographic (never been asked by sheffield which highlights a point I'll come on to) but have done at Thunder (because one of our products is strong in the north East, never got asked if we wanted to continue, they must have enough money!).. but we are small the bigger manufacturers in our sector wont look at league because it wont hit the numbers... it is the way of it.

sheffield eagles is in a poor state at the moment for a large number of reasons, some out of their control some very much in their control but down to the inability of the people involved. Hopefully improvement is starting to come. 

London is important but has also had major issues over its tenure, moving around London causes massive issues and you are basically restarting the project every time. 

However, when it comes to the league it's probably fair to say it needs some bigger city teams to help its exposure. Extra exposure can then increase it's worth to both sponsors and tv companies. No one will say just plonking them in will.solve the issues you have to work hard at it (sheffield and London arguably arent working hard enough/wise enough at it) and they have to be more than just a name. It's not about the ALL being city names either there is a balance to be had, big city names and traditional big clubs. Hey also dont have to be instead of clubs we can always look to expand the league. 

At the moment though where are our big clubs, where are our big names? There are a few but there are not enough and McDermott is right in that who is going to pay for small clubs from small towns. Big clubs yes, big towns yes, mix of big towns and small towns but big clubs yes.. we just don't have any of it right now. His theory is not that they should win everyhing (you obviously havent listened to him if you think that) it's that they help with exposure and interest levels.. 

Btw I am not saying you kick out small clubs for pins in maps or that you change all the names but I still think he is right and that we have a lot of work to do to help is appeal to big money. But I am more confident that I have been for a while that we may be starting to understand the issue (though I believe the Swinton change of mind is a set back).

We had our big clubs and our big names in the 80's and 90's.  Wigan, Widnes, Leeds, Saints were becoming household names. You even saw large numbers of fans wearing the old ICI Widnes shirts on the terraces at Cardiff Arms Park.  Schofield, Hanley, Offiah, Edwards had high media profiles.   Where are there equivalents today?  It's not big towns that's holding RL back it's the selfish attitude of the big clubs who can't see further than their nose ends.  (that's why they bit the Murdoch bait and missed the hook)

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Can you not get big clubs from small towns? Green Bay Packers in the NFL are based in a city with a population of approx. 105,000, for example. 

I don’t for one minute think Manchester United are a worldwide conglomerate because they’re based in Manchester. I don’t for one minute think kids in Jakarta, Beijing etc are Manchester United “supporters” because of where Manchester United are based and how big the city is. 

On the field, United having roughly 20 years of continual trophies will have attracted people because people like successful sport sides and off the field, marketing, advertising and building their brand across the world will have done it.

 

Green Bay is the team for Milwaukee. 

Rugby league can only be a niche in a new city, so would need an exceptionally wealthy niche, or a large wealthy niche. 

[Bob8]

3 minutes ago, Trojan said:

We had our big clubs and our big names in the 80's and 90's.  Wigan, Widnes, Leeds, Saints were becoming household names. You even saw large numbers of fans wearing the old ICI Widnes shirts on the terraces at Cardiff Arms Park.  Schofield, Hanley, Offiah, Edwards had high media profiles.   Where are there equivalents today?  It's not big towns that's holding RL back it's the selfish attitude of the big clubs who can't see further than their nose ends.  (that's why they bit the Murdoch bait and missed the hook)

That is the equivalent of wondering what happened to Darwen as a top soccer club. A top flight club in those days had a few thousand spectators and offered a part time wage, second hand car and accommodation in a less smelly part of Widnes. 

That is less feasible today. 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Trojan said:

We had our big clubs and our big names in the 80's and 90's.  Wigan, Widnes, Leeds, Saints were becoming household names. You even saw large numbers of fans wearing the old ICI Widnes shirts on the terraces at Cardiff Arms Park.  Schofield, Hanley, Offiah, Edwards had high media profiles.   Where are there equivalents today?  It's not big towns that's holding RL back it's the selfish attitude of the big clubs who can't see further than their nose ends.  (that's why they bit the Murdoch bait and missed the hook)

As did every other sport that had the opportunity. It certainly didn't do Football any harm and the game was transformed.

[Route66]

Forget about the big city clubs for now and sort out the international scene first,that's where the interest can grow from. Needs to be on free to air and promoted correctly, just look at the old enemy, I'm sitting now with a match on in the background, woefully one sided and the presenters are making out that this is the greatest competition ever. They are now telling me that the forward passes are all a scientific trick of the eye!

[Trojan]

8 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

That is the equivalent of wondering what happened to Darwen as a top soccer club. A top flight club in those days had a few thousand spectators and offered a part time wage, second hand car and accommodation in a less smelly part of Widnes. 

That is less feasible today. 

You clearly haven't read Jonathan Davies's biography.

[Lowdesert]

1 minute ago, Trojan said:

You clearly haven't read Jonathan Davies's biography.

Maurice’s Lindsay’s bio might also be worth a read.

This link might be too.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/it-was-worth-all-the-hassle-just-to-save-our-sport-1-2558003

[Eddie]

18 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Green Bay is the team for Milwaukee. 

Rugby league can only be a niche in a new city, so would need an exceptionally wealthy niche, or a large wealthy niche. 

It’s a two hour drive from Green Bay to Milwaukee. People in the latter and across Wisconsin may well support the Packers but they are very much Green Bay’s team.