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Smudger06

Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

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2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

To expand successfully isn’t easy.

Even a very rich league like the NFL are moving at a measured pace gradually when it comes to expanding into Europe.

I believe there’s lessons to be learned about how they are testing the water in London in a piecemeal way.

Patience, a methodical approach and a coherent strategy is required.

 

 

And a shedload of money.

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On 06/10/2019 at 18:56, Man of Kent said:

He’s suggesting Toronto can’t attract major investment because they play “small towns in the north of England”.

Sounded like he’s been talking to Jon Wilkin, who reckons himself to be something of an intellectual but is actually a half-wit who hasn’t thought it through.

Another howler from Man who Kant.

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7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

To be fair they’ve generated a big following in the UK since the 1980s through using their brains rather just financial muscle.

 

It’s a good game (especially in highlight form) and also has glitz and glamour that we don’t have in sport over here, try as the Premier League might. That’s why it’s popular in the UK, I don’t think the NFL have thrown much money at this country at all since the Monarchs (which was decades ago). 

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23 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Well that is ridiculous. 

However if the majority of Leeds, Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton and a few others weren't in the top flight there would be a damage done in terms of TV rights. Thats also why the none elite clubs are rightly worried about and are totally against a European super league with teams moving "upwards" this time.

As someone pointed out previously the same is even more true of Serie A with Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Napoli etc supporting the investment in the league so teams like Pescara, Benevento, Parma and Atalanta can also be at the top table.

Our top table in RL is far too small atm and needs more "big teams" with big followings to come in. 6 (and a half if you include KR) clubs at the top with Bradford lingering outside just isn't enough.

One of the many beauties of RL was on display on Saturday evening. Firstly that Fev and Toronto would even be a fixture, second that there was a decent chance that Fev could win! We shouldn't ever try to lose that, but we should also be aware that our game needs to grow in relevance to larger numbers of people and they are in cities. 

 

Perhaps you could let the RFL know about this.  They seem to have spent the last 25 years trying to eliminate Fev (and Leigh)  After all Widnes is not exactly a metropolis, but they were fast tracked into SL not that long ago. 

Edited by Trojan
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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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2 hours ago, DC77 said:

They already did, NFL Europe, and it folded due financial losses (low crowds).

There isn’t the fanbase (never mind the participation) to sustain a league outside North America. Those that do follow it want to see the best (and it’s predominantly only Americans that play it) so you won’t be seeing more than one/two “franchises” at most, and they will be in the actual NFL. 

 

I did mention  nfl Europe... it was an off season reserve league.. 20 years ago.. to out full franchises in could be different.. top league etc.. you can see the difference now this weekend and last in lindom compared to the small time monarchs. 

I'm not talking tomorrow but 20 years down the line ( as I said in the post).. 

Equally it may not work but plans dont always work out..  just a speculative possibility.

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36 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But not a "big club"

No you're dead right... sheffield Wednesday are the big club in this city.. 

Btw you just changed the goal posts.. it wasnt about the size of the club but the city/town.. size of club is different.. 

Edited by RP London

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And who are the top sides in the rival handling code?  Leicester, Northampton,  Wasps (Coventry) Bath Exeter, Gloucester Bath, Worcester.  None of them particularly large towns, and yet the media lavishes money on showing their games. 

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

You’re examples of introducing complete sports leagues for sports that were not already big in that area is basketball to North America and ice hockey to Canada? And the original birth of the oldest codified football in existence? Soccer to the USA was exactly the example of a league already having a basis  

What am I meant to write to that and not be insulting? Help me here!

The leagues which I mentioned might have been in sports which were already well known here, but their success was far from guaranteed.  Plenty of other startup leagues have flopped and gone belly up, among them the USFL, NASL, XFL and AAF.  The last of those didn't even complete its first season.

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5 minutes ago, RP London said:

No you're dead right... sheffield Wednesday are the big club in this city.. 

Btw you just changed the goal posts.. it wasnt about the size of the club but the city/town.. size of club is different.. 

And that's the problem there.  Two clubs so there's never going to be a dominant one.  I'm 73 the last time I remember Sheffield Wednesday being near winning anything was in 1966!

We have our big city clubs.  Hull, they get good crowds, but never fulfil their potential.  Bradford, a very large city, didn't do the Bulls much good.  Sheffield, they even won the CC, but their ground is and their home support is pathetic, their away support is not as good as that. London, been there 40 years and achieved what?  The only big city club in the RFL is Leeds.  On McDermott's theory they should win everything every season.  They don't.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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22 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Perhaps you could let the RFL know about this.  They seem to have spent the last 25 years trying to eliminate Fev (and Leigh)  After all Widnes is not exactly a metropolis, but they were fast tracked into SL not that long ago. 

I don't think licensing was right at all - mainly because there weren't enough clubs deserving of one. I don't think there has been an active campaign against either team though. Indeed it was Leigh, not Toronto, who got the Salary cap changed for the Championship so that they could spend as much as SL. And in any case the team that lost out most from lack of p/r was arguably Sheffield!

 

18 minutes ago, Trojan said:

And who are the top sides in the rival handling code?  Leicester, Northampton,  Wasps (Coventry) Bath Exeter, Gloucester Bath, Worcester.  None of them particularly large towns, and yet the media lavishes money on showing their games. 

Thats false though, the media don't. They're on the second biggest subscription sports broadcaster for starters (the Pro14 is on premier too). T'other codes lavishing of interest is almost exclusively on its international game. 

You also, some could say tactically, miss out the not quite so inconsiderable two topflight London teams, Bristol, Cardiff, Dublin, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester (claiming the entire north west) on top of the strong regionally supported sides you mention i.e. Leicester, Bath, Gloucester, Exeter etc.  

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17 minutes ago, Trojan said:

And who are the top sides in the rival handling code?  Leicester, Northampton,  Wasps (Coventry) Bath Exeter, Gloucester Bath, Worcester.  None of them particularly large towns, and yet the media lavishes money on showing their games. 

True, that. They are as rooted in their geographical roots as much as we are.

They have generally invested more in stadia than Super League clubs, mind.

Warrington are a fine example of how modern facilities can grow a Super League club. 

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7 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The leagues which I mentioned might have been in sports which were already well known here, but their success was far from guaranteed.  Plenty of other startup leagues have flopped and gone belly up, among them the USFL, NASL, XFL and AAF.  The last of those didn't even complete its first season.

I am sure you are having a perfectly reasonable debate with points that I did not make.

My assertion was that introducing new sports leagues in novel sports has a poor record of success. Introducing new sports leagues for already established sports is different. Go away and debate that different point with someone else.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Association Football got a March on the Northern Union when they codified their sport whilst " Rugby " was still having its class war. Association Football got the big populated areas and is now in their DNA ,Does Mac actually think RL is going to rival EFL Championship crowds let alone EPL if we go I to big football cities ? And that's only In  Britain. . How far in the future is he looking ? Surely not in the ,lifetime of any in here ?

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 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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10 hours ago, Trojan said:

And that's the problem there.  Two clubs so there's never going to be a dominant one.  I'm 73 the last time I remember Sheffield Wednesday being near winning anything was in 1966!

We have our big city clubs.  Hull, they get good crowds, but never fulfil their potential.  Bradford, a very large city, didn't do the Bulls much good.  Sheffield, they even won the CC, but their ground is and their home support is pathetic, their away support is not as good as that. London, been there 40 years and achieved what?  The only big city club in the RFL is Leeds.  On McDermott's theory they should win everything every season.  They don't.

Your memory is truly woeful then... wednesday won the league cup in 1991.. came 3rd in the league in 1992, got to both cup finals in 1993.. finished top 6 throughout the early 90s and played in the UEFA cup at that point too.. my point on sheffield.was that first you questioned if it was a big city, it is. You then question if United is a big club, it is as is Wednesday and also famous. People outside the uk know them, if I'm away and they ask where I am from the second question is normally "United or Wednesday"? Your list wasnt wrong except for putting Sheffield in it.  

Anyway it's not about winning its about exposure and getting people interested by "big city clashes" and places to know about playing each other rather than having to look the town up before you know who is playing. Putting handball on in europe, a game that is good to watch but I know little about, what is likely to get my attention Kiel v frieberg or Munch v Berlin? What, as a sponsor, would attract me? which markets are bigger to get my name out in? etc etc.. I know (as a businessman) what I am looking for, would I look at rl to put my money in at the moment, actually I might because it is a cheap way to hit a demographic (never been asked by sheffield which highlights a point I'll come on to) but have done at Thunder (because one of our products is strong in the north East, never got asked if we wanted to continue, they must have enough money!).. but we are small, the bigger manufacturers in our sector wont look at league because it wont hit the numbers... it is the way of it.

Sheffield Eagles is in a poor state at the moment for a large number of reasons, some out of their control some very much in their control but down to the inability of the people involved. Hopefully improvement is starting to come. 

London is important but has also had major issues over its tenure, moving around London causes massive issues and you are basically restarting the project every time. 

However, when it comes to the league it's probably fair to say it needs some bigger city teams to help its exposure. Extra exposure can then increase it's worth to both sponsors and tv companies. No one will say just plonking them in will solve the issues you have to work hard at it (sheffield and London arguably aren't working hard enough/wise enough at it) and they have to be more than just a name. It's not about the ALL being city names either there is a balance to be had, big city names and traditional big clubs. They also don't have to be instead of clubs we can always look to expand the league. 

At the moment though where are our big clubs, where are our big names? There are a few but there are not enough and McDermott is right in that who is going to pay for small clubs from small towns. Big clubs yes, big towns yes, mix of big towns and small towns but big clubs yes.. we just don't have any of it right now. His theory is not that they should win everything (you obviously haven't listened to him if you think that) it's that they help with exposure and interest levels.. 

Btw I am not saying you kick out small clubs for pins in maps or that you change all the names but I still think he is right and that we have a lot of work to do to help is appeal to big money. But I am more confident that I have been for a while that we may be starting to understand the issue (though I believe the Swinton change of mind is a set back).

Edited by RP London
a few typos from phone that i've just noticed on a PC.. not got them all i am sure.
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8 hours ago, Eddie said:

It’s a good game (especially in highlight form) and also has glitz and glamour that we don’t have in sport over here, try as the Premier League might. That’s why it’s popular in the UK, I don’t think the NFL have thrown much money at this country at all since the Monarchs (which was decades ago). 

The NFL lose money on every London match. You need some pretty big pockets to do what they have done and to that scale in a foreign country.

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14 minutes ago, Damien said:

The NFL lose money on every London match. You need some pretty big pockets to do what they have done and to that scale in a foreign country.

How do they lose money when 85,000 people are paying £50-100 a pop? Incredible. 

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4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

How do they lose money when 85,000 people are paying £50-100 a pop? Incredible. 

Because it's an expensive sport with incredible costs.

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14 minutes ago, Eddie said:

How do they lose money when 85,000 people are paying £50-100 a pop? Incredible. 

It's not about not getting loads in to the coffers but more about how much they spend on the events... they put shed loads on in and around the ground... however saying they make a loss or profit on the london game I would say is tough as extra merch sales in the uk because of interest generated? People wanting to take in a game in the states now? Etc etc are indirect gains

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Can you not get big clubs from small towns? Green Bay Packers in the NFL are based in a city with a population of approx. 105,000, for example. 

I don’t for one minute think Manchester United are a worldwide conglomerate because they’re based in Manchester. I don’t for one minute think kids in Jakarta, Beijing etc are Manchester United “supporters” because of where Manchester United are based and how big the city is. 

On the field, United having roughly 20 years of continual trophies will have attracted people because people like successful sport sides and off the field, marketing, advertising and building their brand across the world will have done it.

 

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7 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Can you not get big clubs from small towns? Green Bay Packers in the NFL are based in a city with a population of approx. 105,000, for example. 

For the 100th time yes you can. But if the NFL was made up of a full roster of Green Bay Packers then it wouldn't be as big would it?

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13 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

If your Mum had balls, she’d be your Dad. Semantics. 

No its not though is it. The argument has never been that all clubs from Towns like Cas or Oldham shouldn't be allowed in the league. The point is is that if we had a league made up of exclusively Cas and Oldhams its going to be less valuable to broadcasters and less attractive overall.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No its not though is it. The argument has never been that all clubs from Towns like Cas or Oldham shouldn't be allowed in the league. The point is is that if we had a league made up of exclusively Cas and Oldhams its going to be less valuable to broadcasters and less attractive overall.

 

 

And that’s rubbish, too. 

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