The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

It might give some greater validation to some on here, but, to those who’s club feel threatened the Canadian element is what they target.

I strongly doubt that if Argylle had pumped millions into Newcastle or a brand new team in the UK then we would not have 125 pages about them.

If Argyle had put his money into Leigh we'd have 126 pages of love and adulation for him for saving the game.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

If Argyle had put his money into Leigh we'd have 126 pages of love and adulation for him for saving the game.

He tried to , he offered to buy Leigh 

But you then have to consider why 

[Dave T]

7 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Dave T.  Just using your comment above to ask a question.

IMHO there are people on this board that refuse to accept TWP as anything else but being a club propped up by a wealthy benefactor that has hampered their club from achieving SL status.

So my question to them - based on your point above - is that if a wealthy benefactor created a new club in say Glasgow, Bournemouth, Ipswich or Aberystwyth where RL is non-existent with no pool of players would the same posters be as hostile to those clubs?

I think it is a complicated one. I think there are many reasons why TWP are unpopular with a population of people, I'll name some, all IMHO. 

1. The Leigh rivalry. A natural rivalry was created initially with the signing of coach and some players. That wouldn't necessarily happen with a Glasgow team. 

2. The logistics issue. There is a reasonable point that having a team from the other side of the world in your comp is odd. And it is, by virtue of the fact it is really unusual. That wouldn't be the case for another UK team, but even then we have seen question marks over the likes of Crusaders and even London, who often appear to be weak clubs propped up. 

3. Expansion strategy. A lot would depend on how a team comes about. The likes of London, Wales, France, even Gateshead all had some form of clumsy expansion development aims - TWP literally came from nowhere because a rich bloke wanted to set a team up. I'm cool with that approach (never look a gift horse in the mouth). 

4. The approach of the club. There have been instances where TWP have rubbed people up the wrong way and played the victim card. My personal view is that you need to be bold and disrupt the market to use business speak, but that won't always be popular. The player development issue is an issue for many. 

5. The approach of some fans. I know it is always put down as self-defense, or a reaction to goading, but that is a cop-out. Some of it may be a culture thing, but the constant griping about things not being how they do it in Canada or playing the victim card has certainly worn me down and lost a lof of my goodwill (I should add this is a very small minority). 

6. Over sensitivity. We have quite a noisy hard-core expansionist lot in RL who are pretty aggressive against anyone who disagrees. Therefore any mild hint of criticism against TWP is met with a lot of vitriol. I've been on the end of it, and the likes of Harry, GUBRATS and MoK who can handle themselves, but IMHO articulate themselves well are lambasted here. Other than repetitiveness and thread drift, they don't deserve the stick they get. People will then side with them. But plenty of clubs are disliked. 

7. P&R and structure. Probably the biggest hot topic in the sport. Having new teams like this in brings this to the forefront of debate again. We have seen how toxic this debate is over the last 25 years and bringing overseas teams and talk of franchises automatically instigates a P&R or structure debate. 

I could go on, some people will get hung up on one of the above, or some people are bothered by none. Apologies this is all a negative list, but that is the point, IMHO there are more positives than any of the above, hence why I support expansion, but if we are looking at why TWP are unpopular to some, we maybe do need to deep-dive and not just dismiss it as backward traditional luddites having a moan. 

So whether another club would be hated depends on plenty of variables is the short answer to the long above post

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, TIWIT said:

If Argyle had put his money into Leigh we'd have 126 pages of love and adulation for him for saving the game.

Yes. I mean look how popular Koukash was and even Beaumont is now. 

Yet other rich guys have no issues. 

It's almost as if it isn't just small minded backward behaviour and maybe these people get judged on their behaviour. 

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Dave T.  Just using your comment above to ask a question.

IMHO there are people on this board that refuse to accept TWP as anything else but being a club propped up by a wealthy benefactor that has hampered their club from achieving SL status.

So my question to them - based on your point above - is that if a wealthy benefactor created a new club in say Glasgow, Bournemouth, Ipswich or Aberystwyth where RL is non-existent with no pool of players would the same posters be as hostile to those clubs?

I will answer if I may AT.

All along I have been saying and will still maintain that one stand alone club in Canada such as Toronto is manageable, but Toronto is still a work in progress any fool can see that, the problems they have which are still occuring that are both old and new are not borne out of comments made by those posters who are sceptical of the NA excersize they are a combination of Toronto's geographical position and their internal affairs and management. Straight away and without question your 4 examples would not be affected by geography and adverse weather conditions preventing them falling in line with the long established functionality of the British Rugby League season, and being in that 'virgin' area with a 'non-existant' pool of player's let me for the sake of discussion go back 40 years and add in London or come up to date and throw in Newcastle. 

Rugby League is not a 'foriegn' sport to the country, it is readily available to be veiwed by anyone and what these two area's have done was/have put in place a plan and a concerted effort to grow the sport in the communities, off course London recieved assistance from the RL with establishing Development Officers in the area which worked very well and enticed those to play the game who prefer their sport to be more physical than the main football alternative, London already had a large number of Union outlets and through the Development programme converted a lot of union player's and introduced new participants, the Newcastle area is providing that alternative to football and union in the North East.

You could probably point me in the direction of Scarborough Pirates, Kent Invicta, Mansfield Marksmen, Nottingham Outlaws etc etc and say they failed in virgin area's, yes without question they did, but and it is a big but, they had no plan or strategy to grow the sport in their localities, they just brought the circus to town and hoped for the best. 

I began with Toronto being a work in progress, a prototype if you wish, any buisness who is trying to or developing something new, proves the product before going into full production it is fool hardy not to do so, that is why I say we can support one club from across the pond to evaluate it and work on the positives and eradicate the negatives, which to me is why the RFL has been absolutely totally stupid in admitting Ottawa and considering New York, without having a clearly defined path to take with all the creases ironed out, the same problems new clubs could generate more negativity that the RFL could do without. It is fine for those knee jerk reactionists over here who can't see beyond the beer tents and good attendances that Toronto are enjoying those are the positives but there are many many negatives not just what is happening in Canada but how it affects the sport over here also.

So to answer your final question AT, would this particular poster be as hostile to new clubs in virgin area's in this country, quite honestly, with the history we have of allowing pro clubs to be formed and just hope for the best, yes, I think it would be a waste of time for the RFL and would create adverse publicity when it would surely fail and a waste of money for the backers, along with any application to join the RFL be that here, NA, Europe, or anywhere else, a commitment, strategy and finances should be put in place and made available to actully 'expand' the sport actively in the communities and not just passively on the terraces. 

The bottom line is, we don't produce enough for our own needs, never mind a number of teams who are just reliant on other areas doing the providing for them.

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

In Canada they have RU players.  Now TWP chose not to use RU players and I would doubt that any new team established in the UK in non RL playing areas would sign many RU players.

Just got to this AT, to answer that have a look back and find Oldbears comments on Rugby Union in Canada and the quality of the game and its player's, if Toronto had the desire to introduce native union player's they would have done so when in League 1, the higher up the ladder Toronto have climbed the much less likely it is that they will employ Canadian Union players, I know Ottawa have stated they want X amount of locals in their squad, the higher they climb the need will be for better player's.

 e.g. they could sign the whole Workington squad on and win the division but if they want to get higher they would have to jettison those player's and replace them with those more capable of doing the job in hand, no disrespect to Worky they just seem to be a good example.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Yes, in short. The Canadian element only gives them slight validation.

No it doesn't Tommy, it is far far deeper.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think it is a complicated one. I think there are many reasons why TWP are unpopular with a population of people, I'll name some, all IMHO.  

I've just quoted one little bit of your post, it was very long and I don't want people scrolling to much, people will be getting flashbacks to the days of parky!  

Anyway, people may or may not have noticed I haven't posted on this thread in a long time and a couple of the points you raised in your post are essentially the reason why. Any thread about Toronto seems to just go in the same direction as the brexit threads did, anyone who is in the minority view on the board just gets shouted down and attacked and so I feel I am not able to raise critical issues about Toronto for fear of reprisal.

The fact is when Toronto first came about I was one of the biggest supporters of the idea in the world, I am still one of the biggest supporters of expansion I feel but as time has gone on my enthusiasm for Toronto has gone down and down. Now that is nothing at all to do with the team, I have absolutely no problem at all on earth with the team, it is the arrogance and defensive nature of a small (very small) group of fans that has made me feel this way. As you suggest Dave, maybe it's a cultural thing in which case I'm just not understanding which I will concede to but it doesn't feel that way to me and others who feel we can't voice our opinions. I have never known any group (again only a small minority) of fans to get so offended by a someone criticising their team or any group (small minority) of fans so cocky and arrogant, and I've met fans from just about every club in the game, at least in this country.

I've found RL fans are humble people who, if they are gonna to criticise a club, said clubs fans will agree with them more often than not. I find RL fans can see the problems facing their own clubs and are comfortable enough to admit to them and discuss them in a civilised manner so it is a bit of a shock when some of us try to offer criticism of Toronto and get attacked for it, we simply are not used to that in all the time we have been following the game. It's good that Toronto fans are really positive people but when that small minority are being incredibly arrogant in that positivity by saying things like, Toronto are the saviours of the game, the game is a joke, it's run by idiots, other clubs are small time, we're gonna batter everyone we play, everyone is gonna bow down to us when we dominate the game in just a few years, these things start to become offensive. Be positive, that's great, but don't put down other, long established clubs and long time fans in the process, it is simply not very nice behaviour. 

I imagine there are many others who are the same as me and don't bother posting on Toronto threads any more cos they feel much the same and just can't be bothered to be the target of attacks and abuse. Anyway, I probably could go on but I might as well not hold off the abuse any longer. Come on, take your best shot. 

[Wildcat]

4 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I've just quoted one little bit of your post, it was very long and I don't want people scrolling to much, people will be getting flashbacks to the days of parky!  

Anyway, people may or may not have noticed I haven't posted on this thread in a long time and a couple of the points you raised in your post are essentially the reason why. Any thread about Toronto seems to just go in the same direction as the brexit threads did, anyone who is in the minority view on the board just gets shouted down and attacked and so I feel I am not able to raise critical issues about Toronto for fear of reprisal.

The fact is when Toronto first came about I was one of the biggest supporters of the idea in the world, I am still one of the biggest supporters of expansion I feel but as time has gone on my enthusiasm for Toronto has gone down and down. Now that is nothing at all to do with the team, I have absolutely no problem at all on earth with the team, it is the arrogance and defensive nature of a small (very small) group of fans that has made me feel this way. As you suggest Dave, maybe it's a cultural thing in which case I'm just not understanding which I will concede to but it doesn't feel that way to me and others who feel we can't voice our opinions. I have never known any group (again only a small minority) of fans to get so offended by a someone criticising their team or any group (small minority) of fans so cocky and arrogant, and I've met fans from just about every club in the game, at least in this country.

I've found RL fans are humble people who, if they are gonna to criticise a club, said clubs fans will agree with them more often than not. I find RL fans can see the problems facing their own clubs and are comfortable enough to admit to them and discuss them in a civilised manner so it is a bit of a shock when some of us try to offer criticism of Toronto and get attacked for it, we simply are not used to that in all the time we have been following the game. It's good that Toronto fans are really positive people but when that small minority are being incredibly arrogant in that positivity by saying things like, Toronto are the saviours of the game, the game is a joke, it's run by idiots, other clubs are small time, we're gonna batter everyone we play, everyone is gonna bow down to us when we dominate the game in just a few years, these things start to become offensive. 

I imagine there are many others who are the same as me and don't bother posting on Toronto threads any more cos they feel much the same and just can't be bothered to be the target of attacks and abuse. Anyway, I probably could go on but I might as well not hold off the abuse any longer. Come on, take your best shot. 

I can't disagree with any of that! 

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I imagine there are many others who are the same as me and don't bother posting on Toronto threads any more cos they feel much the same and just can't be bothered to be the target of attacks and abuse. Anyway, I probably could go on but I might as well not hold off the abuse any longer. Come on, take your best shot. 

Edited as you did wuth Dave's post HG.

I couldn't agree with you more, but it is not all the posters from over the water some are very articulate in getting there point across, I said I wasn't going to visit this thread again, but in a very wet afternoon a couple of days ago after exhausting all the other threads I clicked on it and subsequently read page after page of vitriol not only from across the water but plenty from these shores and the Antipodes as well, I answered one of the more bombastic writers with what was nothing more than a quip, then got referred to as a troll and should be banned etc etc, but if I get a slap I will hit back and there I was drawn back in again. 

Fully understand where you are coming from, I try in my own way to express my thoughts in a polite fashion (well nearly always unless really provoked) but find if something is construed as anti NA that is tantamount to treason and a hanging offense.

I think there should be two NA/Toronto threads one for the appreciation society who just want to back slap, bang the drum and wave the flag, fine nothing wrong with that, and another for those who wish to debate their thoughts in a proper manner and anyone who oversteps the line gets banished.

[silverback]

8 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Dave T.  Just using your comment above to ask a question.

IMHO there are people on this board that refuse to accept TWP as anything else but being a club propped up by a wealthy benefactor that has hampered their club from achieving SL status.

So my question to them - based on your point above - is that if a wealthy benefactor created a new club in say Glasgow, Bournemouth, Ipswich or Aberystwyth where RL is non-existent with no pool of players would the same posters be as hostile to those clubs?

Glasgow Gladiators as a nice ring to it, to be fair i would a love a team from scotland to come down and give cas some stick,even it took 5 years to do so,but it would be made up of a lot a scotish players hopefully, be some good away games for sure. when the idea of toronto was first mentioned i thought it would be great for the game but what were left with after all the "were going to show you how top top Sl" is a phoney side made up of some well known and decent players from around eccles.

[Damien]

Some decent posts. I can agree with some aspects of them but cant with others. I'm not going to get into the ins and outs but will just add a couple of points.

I find the vast majority of Toronto fans respectful and welcome additions to this board. I do agree a couple have taken things too far, and I cringe and groan at some of the posts too, but that is partly due to the reception they have received from some. It should also be noted that just about every team has at least a couple of fans who are like that, some have rather more , and that Toronto are no exception to that. However even some of the rational, courteous fans who have generally been rather respectful of the game and it's history have obviously become disillusioned and as a RL fan I hate to see that.

Other posts like Harry's for me sum up the problem and issues, and I mean that in the best possible way. People fundamentally disagree on the best way forward for the game and Toronto being a Canadian team are intrinsically tied to this debate. You basically agree with an entire approach, and as a result Toronto, or you don't. You either see the benefits or you don't. You either think the limitations can be overcome or you don't. You want the game to change and grow in the Northern hemisphere or you don't because of the consequences of that to your team. There is little common ground there. Added to that is the fact that if that approach is successful it may well see their team never being in Super League again. Let's make no bones about it that certainly clouds peoples minds too.

[wiganermike]

I am supportive of expansion and hope that the sport takes off and gets a permanent foothold in NA but one thing that irks me is related to development of their own player pool and the response to criticism/concerns of the approach/lack of it from TWP to date. Some people will raise concerns over the ability of TWP and any other proposed NA teams to produce players in their own territory with which to begin populating their squad(s). Nobody should expect and I don't think anyone does expect a brand new club in virgin territory to immediately produce such players but over time (likely at least 15 years) it would be reasonable to expect that even in small numbers some would be produced. As posted by Harry Stottle London began in virgin territory 40 years ago and they produce players that populate their own and other squads and have for a few years now, Newcastle began as Gateshead just over 20 years ago and they too are now producing players to populate their squad with. The establishment of those clubs was followed by a proliferation of community clubs in their areas and it is from those that the players are filtering into the pro sport.

Concerns over this issue are raised and it is the often used response that I find frustrating. Canadian posters will often respond along the lines of 'that isn't the way we do things over here' or 'Canadians don't care where their team's players come from'. When participating in NA sports competitions where the player pool comes from the college system that is the accepted and perfectly applicable route to take. RL does not have that option and those Canadian supporters and club owners/managers need to recognise that they are not playing in the NA sports system and that that is not the way player development is done over here in the system in which they do play. All our clubs (and those in other sports) inspire youngsters in their vicinity to take up a ball and play and it is those kids that go on to be the players of the future. All of our top flight clubs are required to put in place development systems to provide for the production of those players (some are better than others on this).

The establishment of even as few as four community clubs in the Toronto area (one in the north, one south, one east and one in the west of the city area) would be a step along this route. It would provide a place for those people whom have been attracted to games by the Wolfpack to have a go at playing RL (rather than RU at Wolfpack sponsored events) even if the standard wasn't high initially. It would also provide a starting point for a local community league and opportunity for rivalries. We are told that David Argyle is incredibly wealthy so surely he could stretch to supplying kit to such clubs to help with start-up. There must be municipal pitches where they could play games. If build it and they will come worked for the TWP then it should work for those already interested when starting a team to play in and he surely has enough cash to help get a handful of community clubs up and running. No such effort has been made so criticism/concern in this area is IMO valid.

We have two non UK clubs in Catalans and Toulouse that whilst not in virgin territory get around the difficulties of participating in our development competitions paired with the need to develop players by running development/feeder clubs within the French domestic set up. That gives them the ability to provide a place to play and develop for domestic players before they are ready to enter their own full time squads. There is an established competition in USA which is older than the Wolfpack in which they could establish a feeder/development club for which the likes of Quinn Ngawati (spelling?) and any others picked up by their NA player trials could play once judged not of the required standard for where TWP play now. That would then give them an outlet for player development just as the two French clubs have. The fact that they have not attempted such things again makes criticism/concern over their lack of effort towards producing players themselves valid IMO.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

No it doesn't Tommy, it is far far deeper.

Makes little difference in reality. As you said yourself in a subsequent post, TWP are another Scarborough Pirates or Kent Invicta in your eyes.

I've seen these comments made about Toronto said about Catalans, then Sheffield and then London before them. Not necessarily your personal comments, but ones that echo your sentiment. There's an element of not being able to see the wood for the trees in your reductive criticism. It sounds like a lot of your personal angst is with the RFL, which is fine and makes sense, but doesn't warrant every Toronto thread being turned into the same "debate". Start a thread on the failings of the junior game, you'll get a lot of traction.

With any expansion side its the same argument over and over again "they don't really care about the game", "yeah they get good crowds but", "they should go form their own league" - Toronto being cashed up and Canadian only adds an extra layer to that. Its a shortsighted approach that has had literally zero benefit to the game for 125 years. Its symptomatic of a negativity that permeates throughout much of the game.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

17 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

Concerns over this issue are raised and it is the often used response that I find frustrating. Canadian posters will often respond along the lines of 'that isn't the way we do things over here' or 'Canadians don't care where their team's players come from'. When participating in NA sports competitions where the player pool comes from the college system that is the accepted and perfectly applicable route to take. RL does not have that option and those Canadian supporters and club owners/managers need to recognise that they are not playing in the NA sports system and that that is not the way player development is done over here in the system in which they do play. All our clubs (and those in other sports) inspire youngsters in their vicinity to take up a ball and play and it is those kids that go on to be the players of the future. All of our top flight clubs are required to put in place development systems to provide for the production of those players (some are better than others on this).

Can I just add to that as well, and related to my post earlier, another response I have seen to this issue being raised is for the small minority to then attack other clubs for not developing youth. It is a valid point and should be raised but I don't feel it is a good reply to your own team not developing youth. If you would like to talk specifically about other teams not developing youth then you are welcome to start a thread about it and it can be discussed in a civilised manner there, discussion being the optimum word. It is like a school playground on here sometimes, my dad is bigger than your dad type thing. What I have noticed as well is the fans of those other clubs tend to agree and simply brush off the criticism, the best I have found for this are Huddersfield fans who I admire for the amount of abuse they take sometimes and simply take it in their stride. 

On another good point you made, about the French teams running feeder teams and community clubs, some teams do not develop masses of youth or run strong academies but they do put a lot of money and support into their local community clubs, most of which run teams at all ages and so are developing youth. Teams like Hudds, Wakefield, Salford who seem to be the names that come up often in this discussion still support youth development just in a different way to running an academy and that is great. 

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

It might give some greater validation to some on here, but, to those who’s club feel threatened the Canadian element is what they target.

I strongly doubt that if Argylle had pumped millions into Newcastle or a brand new team in the UK then we would not have 125 pages about them.

You say that but until Toronto turned up its was Catalans that were targeted, before them Sheffield, before them London etc. (and all these clubs still do get stick). The common theme here is the "not from our village" attitude some RL fans (and indeed just northern folk in general) have towards outsiders.

[Man of Kent]

Well done to DaveT for triggering some excellent, well-reasoned ‘silent majority speaks’ type posts.

At the end of the day we are all rugby league fans and want what we think is best for the game. 

[Dave T]

43 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Well done to DaveT for triggering some excellent, well-reasoned ‘silent majority speaks’ type posts.

At the end of the day we are all rugby league fans and want what we think is best for the game. 

Yes. I should add that my stance on the TWP project is quite different from many that I will defend, but that's part of the debate. 

I really don't think there is a right or wrong. 

[Adelaide Tiger]

The level of debate over the last couple of pages has been extremely good avoiding the usual petty squabbles and I respect everyone’s view.

Although overall I am supportive of TWP I do recognise that there are some issues such as working closer with the National body and offering support in developing local clubs that I would like to see happen.

But when I weigh up the pros and cons I believe the introduction of TWP can be more beneficial in the long term than retaining the status quo which I equate to treading water.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

The level of debate over the last couple of pages has been extremely good avoiding the usual petty squabbles and I respect everyone’s view.

Although overall I am supportive of TWP I do recognise that there are some issues such as working closer with the National body and offering support in developing local clubs that I would like to see happen.

But when I weigh up the pros and cons I believe the introduction of TWP can be more beneficial in the long term than retaining the status quo which I equate to treading water.

On a simple basis, expansion is all about getting new people involved in the sport. TWP have brought in many new fans, many new TV viewers, new media and new sponsors. That is expansion, and very welcome. Players is probably the major missing bit (even at junior level) but it would be good to see real progress on that in the coming years.

[Guest]

The number 1 reason RL fans have a problem with TWP is because they aren't from the heartlands and are perceived to be taking someone else's place in Super League or taking someone else's money.  It's narrow minded and pathetic.  Nearly all other criticism is just these same fans trying to justify their narrow minded attitude with any negative angle they can find.

It was the same with London and Catalans. 

The only thing they all have in common is they are outsiders coming into the game and it makes some fans uncomfortable. Particularly the fans of clubs from smaller towns who are most likely to miss out on a place in SL as a result.  Leigh / Cas / Widnes / Fev.

You can find lots of reasons to criticise ANY club but no other club gets anything like the level of criticism a new expansion club does and we all know the real reasons.