The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T 16,989]

5 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

It would never be published over here, at least not by anyone reputable. Even the site I found it on originally has taken it down.

But it pretty much sums up the 'great divide' here re TWP. Those that hate them see it as justification for their dislike. Supporters just see a pack of malicious lies.

Even with Bob Hunters quote confirming late payment of wages? 

[SL17 910]

10 hours ago, Big Picture said:

And yet those same trialists won a match against a team of players who'd grown up with RL so (especially considering that they'd never played together before) they obviously had at least some ability to play this game even if that particular group weren't the sort of players which Eric Pérez had in mind when he made that statement.

We need to put things in perspective, the effort of transitioning to a similar-but-different sport is going to have limited appeal as long as the pay is only slightly more than in the minor league CFL (the SL cap divided by 25 is ~113,200 US$ and the CFL cap divided by 56 is ~71,560 US$) even if it didn't involve starting two tiers below the top and playing before crowds of just a few hundred whenever they play away from home.  Attracting major league calibre athletes (such as those who played in one of the annual year-end NCAA all-star bowl games like the Senior Bowl, Shrine Bowl and NFLPA Collegiate Bowl but were overlooked in the NFL draft) would require a major league pay scale.

So you’re saying you need 17 marquee positions available to draft any athlete in to the sport of RL?

[Man of Kent 6,816]

18 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

It would never be published over here, at least not by anyone reputable. Even the site I found it on originally has taken it down.

But it pretty much sums up the 'great divide' here re TWP. Those that hate them see it as justification for their dislike. Supporters just see a pack of malicious lies.

You justify DaveT’s point neatly that certain Wolfpack fans are rather childishly unable to accept criticism.

Here is a story - by a good journalist in a well-regarded national newspaper - quoting a Toronto player and verified by your CEO, yet you see a pack of malicious lies!

Edited July 18 by Man of Kent

[wiganermike 304]

16 minutes ago, SL17 said:

So you’re saying you need 17 marquee positions available to draft any athlete in to the sport of RL?

I think what Big Picture was saying was that given the comparative potential for earnings and the inconvenience of relocating that the chances of the more gifted athletes taking part in the trials or otherwise choosing to play for TWP rather than staying at home and finding a contract in NA are slim to none. So that the likelihood of converting top quality sportsmen to RL was overstated.

[frank 420]

22 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

You justify DaveT’s point neatly that certain Wolfpack fans are rather childishly unable to accept criticism.

Here is a story - by a good journalist in a well-regarded national newspaper - quoting a Toronto player and verified by your CEO, yet you see a pack of malicious lies!

These posts you talk about are just drawing you  and others out, while others are having a good laugh.

[Man of Kent 6,816]

20 minutes ago, frank said:

These posts you talk about are just drawing you  and others out, while others are having a good laugh.

And?

[CanadianRugger 1,531]

I don't personally believe these sketchy reports which aren't even from reputable journalists.  If TWP were consistently so bad, they wouldn't be able to sign top talent much less, SBW and more recently, Kallum Watkins while being linked to other players. 

Recent loans and moves of players like Andy Ackers and Liam Kay have obviously been made to make room for better talent.

They also would be one of the clubs in a dispute with their players over salaries.  TWP were one of the first clubs to agree to salary cuts with their players.

I am certain this is a difficult time period for the club.  They have no ability to generate any income or any access to TV money, yet are somehow still expected to play with relegation hanging over their heads which makes no sense.

 

 

[TIWIT 1,626]

6 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

You justify DaveT’s point neatly that certain Wolfpack fans are rather childishly unable to accept criticism.

Here is a story - by a good journalist in a well-regarded national newspaper - quoting a Toronto player and verified by your CEO, yet you see a pack of malicious lies!

I said the article contained elements of truth but without attributation or collaboration the article lacks credibility. For me anyway. Others here not so much.

Do you believe someone as outspoken as Sunny Bill would be silent if his paycheque was consistently late? Or that others would not speak up now that this has gone public?

For all I know this might all be true. It would break my heart but I have to acknowledge the possibility. But it will take a lot more proof than this shoddy piece of 'journalism'.

 

Edited July 18 by TIWIT

[Man of Kent 6,816]

1 minute ago, TIWIT said:

I said the article contained elements of truth but without attributation or collaboration the article lacks credibility.

Do you believe someone as outspoken as Sunny Bill would be silent if his paycheque was consistently late? Or that others would not speak up now that this has gone public?

For all I know this might all be true. It would break my heart but I have to acknowledge the possibility. But it will take a lot more proof than this shoddy piece of 'journalism'.

 

A middle-of-the-road, independent national newspaper like ‘the I’ isn’t in the business of publishing made-up stories. It’s been verified by Bob Hunter, and that is a cast-iron guarantee of the journalistic integrity of the piece (ie an on-the-record quote from the club). 

You’re onto a loser here, bud.

[CanadianRugger 1,531]

Since we are all about random rumours from sources this has been making its rounds on facebook:

Regarding VISAs, Super League has an agreement with the Home Office and Clubs that are full members get different VISA rules and preferential treatment.  Super League didn't want to make Toronto a full member; therefore, TWP has to play by a different set of rules than everyone else.

This issue has been apparently made known to the RFL for some time and nothing was done about it.  Also, the rumour is SKY have gotten involved and are threatening to withdraw funding completely from the other Super League clubs for breach of contract should TWP not play. 

[TIWIT 1,626]

15 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

A middle-of-the-road, independent national newspaper like ‘the I’ isn’t in the business of publishing made-up stories. It’s been verified by Bob Hunter, and that is a cast-iron guarantee of the journalistic integrity of the piece (ie an on-the-record quote from the club). 

You’re onto a loser here, bud.

You really don't even read what I write do you?

So why should I bother. As Mr. Drake suggests, to the Ignore list with you.

[Man of Kent 6,816]

Just now, TIWIT said:

You really don't even read what I write do you?

So why should I bother. As Mr. Drake suggests, to the Ignore list with you.

Better luck next time

[DimmestStar 231]

Surely Toronto need to return to training next week. If they don't I think we can assume they will not be fulfilling their fixtures.

[Oldbear 490]

8 hours ago, wiganermike said:

One thing that has emerged recently concerning Ottawa that makes me wonder about their continued commitment to such an approach is that in recent articles and statements concerning their entry into League 1 next year that they seem to suggest that the aim now is to gain promotion from League 1 in season 1. This is a change from the original 'it doesn't matter if it takes a few years to get promoted' type statements when first applying. This may be a response to New York's scheduled entry in 2022 as they don't want a Toronto-esque NA club visibly surpassing them in year 2 , or they may have even been asked to aim for promotion in year 1 by the RFL to avoid having 2 NA clubs in League 1 at the same time. 

There is also the issue of what happens to the proposed 10 players picked up via trials if Ottawa do gain promotion in year 1 and as is likely those players would be of League 1 standard at best (other than possibly 1 or 2 at most). If Ottawa move immediately to a standard of competition greater than the capabilities of those 10 then where will they go ?

Just picking up on a couple of these, with regard to timelines who knows, somehow I still feel that NY will not get off the ground, although I do get your point about the RFL possibly not wanting 2 NA clubs in League1 the same season, assuming of course the current structure remains unchanged, a big “if” for RL.

With regard to the 10 players I suspect what will happen is what happens with all other sports over here in that 10 trial list contracts will be offered, however this will be cut down to 3-4 by the start of the season. These 3-4 will get game time off the bench against weaker teams and when playing at home, they may be squad members in subsequent seasons, they may be allowed to go on loan to League1 sides or they may just drop out of the game, again not unusual over here where the average pro sport career is a little over 3 years!

[Gooleboy 1,059]

Why doesn't the SL Head Honcho RE ever seem to say anything about these stories doing the rounds. A bit of clarity might stop the reporting getting people in to a frenzy.

[Jayme2020 219]

20 hours ago, Big Picture said:

And yet those same trialists won a match against a team of players who'd grown up with RL so (especially considering that they'd never played together before) they obviously had at least some ability to play this game even if that particular group weren't the sort of players which Eric Pérez had in mind when he made that statement.

We need to put things in perspective, the effort of transitioning to a similar-but-different sport is going to have limited appeal as long as the pay is only slightly more than in the minor league CFL (the SL cap divided by 25 is ~113,200 US$ and the CFL cap divided by 56 is ~71,560 US$) even if it didn't involve starting two tiers below the top and playing before crowds of just a few hundred whenever they play away from home.  Attracting major league calibre athletes (such as those who played in one of the annual year-end NCAA all-star bowl games like the Senior Bowl, Shrine Bowl and NFLPA Collegiate Bowl but were overlooked in the NFL draft) would require a major league pay scale.

The Cfl really is not minor league.,

[Jayme2020 219]

1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

Just picking up on a couple of these, with regard to timelines who knows, somehow I still feel that NY will not get off the ground, although I do get your point about the RFL possibly not wanting 2 NA clubs in League1 the same season, assuming of course the current structure remains unchanged, a big “if” for RL.

With regard to the 10 players I suspect what will happen is what happens with all other sports over here in that 10 trial list contracts will be offered, however this will be cut down to 3-4 by the start of the season. These 3-4 will get game time off the bench against weaker teams and when playing at home, they may be squad members in subsequent seasons, they may be allowed to go on loan to League1 sides or they may just drop out of the game, again not unusual over here where the average pro sport career is a little over 3 years!

I also don't think New York will be a TWP team if they get off the ground Ottawa might be more worried they could be a nightmare and with that have bad press and it could effect Otatwa to a degree.

[Big Picture 1,636]

9 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

The Cfl really is not minor league.,

Yes it is minor league.  Every year sees a bunch of players cut by NFL teams during their preseason airlifted up to Canada who displace other players who were already playing in the CFL because those NFL castoffs are better players and that's been happening for 50+ years now.  That's a minor league by any definition.

[Smudger06 716]

2 hours ago, DimmestStar said:

Surely Toronto need to return to training next week. If they don't I think we can assume they will not be fulfilling their fixtures.

I think defo by week commencing Mon. 27th July. 

[Oldbear 490]

I think some people forget that the US and Canadian college systems literally produce thousands of skilled athletes each year, only a small minority will end up with a pro career in the major leagues (including the CFL), for the rest it’s a search to see if they can land something in one of the minor leagues or in Europe. None of those options is well paid and the reality is that the majority will need to forget their sporting dreams and enter the real world of work. I therefore don’t think that RL being a relatively low paid sporting career is that much of an issue and that there does exist a pool of fit, well trained, disciplined athletes who RL could target to see if a number could make it as a pro RL player (and we are not talking big numbers, if the Wolfpack or Aces only find 2-4 guys from this route every couple of years it would help). I think the reality is that finding and identifying athletes from this route will depend how serious the club is in its search, which in turn depends on how much priority is put on doing this at the top level, how much money the owner is willing to spend on this exercise, how patient the owner is in waiting for results and how willing the coaching staff is to spend resources developing players by this route. The reality is that finding your own talent, especially from a non RL background is hard, whereas the easy option is to just import ready made talent and unless clubs get some form of incentive for developing their own most will always choose the easy route.

[Jayme2020 219]

14 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Yes it is minor league.  Every year sees a bunch of players cut by NFL teams during their preseason airlifted up to Canada who displace other players who were already playing in the CFL because those NFL castoffs are better players and that's been happening for 50+ years now.  That's a minor league by any definition.

Youl could say the same about the NHl then many players get cut from the Russian KHL and head to the NHL.

[RobertAM 2,319]

well Hakim Miloudi is active on twitter saying he is on his way to training and seems as happy as a lark so maybe he's the only one getting paid?  Unless there suddenly a flood of players complaining they weren't being paid i'd ignore the recycled so called journalism..

[Jayme2020 219]

i just want to add on this whole Cfl is minor league

 

Avg salary of minor league players $15,000

Avg salary of Cfl player $85,000

[TIWIT 1,626]

8 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

I think some people forget that the US and Canadian college systems literally produce thousands of skilled athletes each year, only a small minority will end up with a pro career in the major leagues (including the CFL), for the rest it’s a search to see if they can land something in one of the minor leagues or in Europe. None of those options is well paid and the reality is that the majority will need to forget their sporting dreams and enter the real world of work. I therefore don’t think that RL being a relatively low paid sporting career is that much of an issue and that there does exist a pool of fit, well trained, disciplined athletes who RL could target to see if a number could make it as a pro RL player (and we are not talking big numbers, if the Wolfpack or Aces only find 2-4 guys from this route every couple of years it would help). I think the reality is that finding and identifying athletes from this route will depend how serious the club is in its search, which in turn depends on how much priority is put on doing this at the top level, how much money the owner is willing to spend on this exercise, how patient the owner is in waiting for results and how willing the coaching staff is to spend resources developing players by this route. The reality is that finding your own talent, especially from a non RL background is hard, whereas the easy option is to just import ready made talent and unless clubs get some form of incentive for developing their own most will always choose the easy route.

Its not a career it's an adventure!

[Oldbear 490]

Having read the article there’s really not a lot of surprises in there. The late payment of suppliers and potential lawsuits are fairly common knowledge and there have been several stories in the past of players being paid late. It is interesting to see the players quote about the people running things on behalf of Argyle and like some have mentioned I am surprised that Mr Elstone has not investigated the whole running and administration of the club, given the issues stated above, the salary cap fiasco and now visa problems, if the club does fail in the next couple of years and is wound up then a major investigation needs to be launched since the failure will almost certainly result from mismanagement rather than lack of funds, in which case the question will need to be asked how did SL/RFL allow this mismanagement to happen?