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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

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Hudgell is absolutely the biggest hypocrite in the game. 

Toronto shouldn't play this out in public but it's perfectly right for him to criticise Adam walker in public

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/37625807

Koukash, Salford and the RFL in public

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/hudgell-criticises-koukash-salford-damning-statement-4733/

Andrew Chalmers 

https://www.totalrl.com/neil-hudgell-issues-scathing-farewell-comment-to-ex-bradford-owner-andrew-chalmers/

Or being one of the vocal owners during the split from the RFL

He had no problem with being cynical.in taking the RFL  to.court through stanley gene to get his club extra quota spots, no problem with deregistering players to.get around the quota.for willie Mason  no issue with being cynical in the signing of Paul Cooke, 

No problem with his own club receiving special dispensation to sign players over the quota

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12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

1. See, that is not my point in the slightest. 

I am advocating different rules. I have always stated that clubs are different and I have no burning desire for clubs to be treated the same. We should do what is right for the game and clubs. 

2. Try reading the conversation you jumped in on. A TWP fan was claiming it was unfair that rules were applied differently to them. In a thread where many TWP fans are asking for the rules to be applied differentl. I think the latter group are right, they should be treated differently. 

1. I didn't say it was what you advocated. You made two.points

First that treating them the same would be forcing them to operate under the current cap

And secondly that we should have different rules.

I'm saying your first point is wrong.

2. Both are right. Applying the same rules is treating them differently because of the disproportionate affect it would have. 

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17 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Oh dear. It seems turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

Now what for the rugby disrupters?

Perhaps those clubs may regret getting what they wish for

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24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

https://www.totalrl.com/do-toronto-wolfpack-really-bring-no-away-fans/

"But whichever conclusion you decided to come to, there is one thing you can almost certainly claim as fact.

Toronto Wolfpack have not damaged attendances. They’ve actually enhanced them"

 

I've read with interest the last 15 or so pages of this thread dealing primarily with the Pros and Cons of granting TWP additional Salary Cap (S.C.) room/space.  I have not commented since most of the posters (say about 8 or so in number), are much more knowledgeable than I on all the rules and regulations around the S.C., and the ancillary maters like the many and various dispensations of one kind or another that are available to clubs.  The following is a back-and-forth dialogue that I had on a Wolfpack Facebook Fans page on January 4, 2020 with a gentleman from London, England on what I believe is/are an arguable merit(s) to granting TWP some additional S.C. room.  I'm prompted to share this due to Mr. Hudgell's assertation that "match day revenue will likely be lower for home games against Toronto due to lack of travelling support".

 

 

  • Michael Hall
  •  I really hope there are no major injuries during the season. A 23 man squad is far too small for Super League, and they have no reserves to call upon.
    I wonder how close to the cap they are. Imp sure any potential players would want a higher salary than a UK club would pay them, given the amount of time spent traveling and being away from home.
    Hide or report this
  •  
    Allan Carswell IMHO a 23 player squad will not cut it. As I've said several times before, in L1 and Championship ALL the teams played OUT OF THEIR SKINS when they played TWP. This practice will continue with the SL teams who will want to put the TWP upstarts "in their place" so to speak. Injuries are going to take a toll. TWP deserve some dispensation WRT the salary cap.
    3
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    •  
       
       
       
      Michael Hall How much, and for how long would you give them dispensation of the cap?
      Hide or report this
    •  
      Allan Carswell OK let's say we look at the SBW monetary benefit to the Super League collectively. Lots of assumptions of course. Season is 29 games. TWP will play 17 of them in England, 1 in France, and 11 in Canada. Assume SBW puts an extra 1,000 bums on seats for those 18 games out of Canada. I've seen that number (1,000) quoted several times and also that it is considered conservative. Assume an SL adult game ticket is Thirty (30) pounds. Revenue increase then for the other 11 SL teams collectively due to SBW presence = 18 (games) x 1,000 (extra bums) x 30 (pounds sterling) = 540,000.00 Pounds Sterling. Ergo.......give the TWP then an extra 540,000 pounds sterling on the Salary Cap. And for how long you ask.....for this year and next year (2020/2021) being what SBW has signed for. Now remember.....that 540,000 pounds of extra revenue will flow DIRECTLY into the 11 SL teams bank accounts AND, if dispensation is granted TWP will HAVE TO SPEND that much more money on player salaries. Remember that TWP get zero, zip, zilch Central Funding and I do believe they also still need to pay for the travel and accommodation costs of the other 11 teams when they visit Canada. Talk about getting the short straw!!!!! Remember, lots of assumptions here.....don't beat me up for them.
      3
      Edit or delete this
    •  
      Allan Carswell OH, and I forgot to say that on top of the extra 540,000 pounds in ticket revenue the SL Clubs' coffers will also benefit from food and drink income, possibly parking income, and maybe even some programme and merchandise sales income. Being as how there are survey results out just today that say that 82% of Rugby (both codes combined) game day spectators quaff alcoholic beverages at games, then IMHO you might want to double that 540,000 pounds. So......call it a nice round 1 million pounds added revenue to the other 11 SL clubs bank accounts thanks to SBW and the TWP!!!!!
      2
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Edited by Cameron Highlander
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4 minutes ago, Cameron Highlander said:

 

 

 

 

  • Michael Hall
  •  I really hope there are no major injuries during the season. A 23 man squad is far too small for Super League, and they have no reserves to call upon.
    I wonder how close to the cap they are. Imp sure any potential players would want a higher salary than a UK club would pay them, given the amount of time spent traveling and being away from home.
    Hide or report this
  •  
    Allan Carswell IMHO a 23 player squad will not cut it. As I've said several times before, in L1 and Championship ALL the teams played OUT OF THEIR SKINS when they played TWP. This practice will continue with the SL teams who will want to put the TWP upstarts "in their place" so to speak. Injuries are going to take a toll. TWP deserve some dispensation WRT the salary cap.
    3
    Edit or delete this
    •  
       
      I've read with interest the last 15 or so pages of this thread dealing primarily with the Pros and Cons of granting TWP additional Salary Cap (S.C.) room/space.  I have not commented since most of the posters (say about 8 or so in number), are much more knowledgeable than I on all the rules and regulations around the S.C., and the ancillary maters like the many and various dispensations of one kind or another that are available to clubs.  The following is a back-and-forth dialogue that I had on a Wolfpack Facebook Fans page on January 4, 2020 with a gentleman from London, England on what I believe is/are an arguable merit(s) to granting TWP some additional S.C. room.  I'm prompted to share this due to Mr. Hudgell's assertation that "match day revenue will likely be lower for home games against Toronto due to lack of travelling support".
       
       
      Michael Hall How much, and for how long would you give them dispensation of the cap?
      Hide or report this
    •  
      Allan Carswell OK let's say we look at the SBW monetary benefit to the Super League collectively. Lots of assumptions of course. Season is 29 games. TWP will play 17 of them in England, 1 in France, and 11 in Canada. Assume SBW puts an extra 1,000 bums on seats for those 18 games out of Canada. I've seen that number (1,000) quoted several times and also that it is considered conservative. Assume an SL adult game ticket is Thirty (30) pounds. Revenue increase then for the other 11 SL teams collectively due to SBW presence = 18 (games) x 1,000 (extra bums) x 30 (pounds sterling) = 540,000.00 Pounds Sterling. Ergo.......give the TWP then an extra 540,000 pounds sterling on the Salary Cap. And for how long you ask.....for this year and next year (2020/2021) being what SBW has signed for. Now remember.....that 540,000 pounds of extra revenue will flow DIRECTLY into the 11 SL teams bank accounts AND, if dispensation is granted TWP will HAVE TO SPEND that much more money on player salaries. Remember that TWP get zero, zip, zilch Central Funding and I do believe they also still need to pay for the travel and accommodation costs of the other 11 teams when they visit Canada. Talk about getting the short straw!!!!! Remember, lots of assumptions here.....don't beat me up for them.
      3
      Edit or delete this
    •  
      Allan Carswell OH, and I forgot to say that on top of the extra 540,000 pounds in ticket revenue the SL Clubs' coffers will also benefit from food and drink income, possibly parking income, and maybe even some programme and merchandise sales income. Being as how there are survey results out just today that say that 82% of Rugby (both codes combined) game day spectators quaff alcoholic beverages at games, then IMHO you might want to double that 540,000 pounds. So......call it a nice round 1 million pounds added revenue to the other 11 SL clubs bank accounts thanks to SBW and the TWP!!!!!
      2
      Edit or delete this

There are some terrible assumptions in that post. 

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41 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

We lost because of our Australian half backs daft decision to kick a crossfire bomb to the quickest player on the pitch ( Liam May ) instead of kicking the ball dead with 4 minutes to go 

Typical Brit blaming the foreigner lol

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Just now, TboneFromTO said:

Typical Brit blaming the foreigner lol

With Leigh it always seems to be someone elses fault: always.

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34 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Hudgell is absolutely the biggest hypocrite in the game. 

Toronto shouldn't play this out in public but it's perfectly right for him to criticise Adam walker in public

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/37625807

Koukash, Salford and the RFL in public

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/hudgell-criticises-koukash-salford-damning-statement-4733/

Andrew Chalmers 

https://www.totalrl.com/neil-hudgell-issues-scathing-farewell-comment-to-ex-bradford-owner-andrew-chalmers/

Or being one of the vocal owners during the split from the RFL

He had no problem with being cynical.in taking the RFL  to.court through stanley gene to get his club extra quota spots, no problem with deregistering players to.get around the quota.for willie Mason  no issue with being cynical in the signing of Paul Cooke, 

No problem with his own club receiving special dispensation to sign players over the quota

Typical short-sighted self-serving small-time operator looking for the rest of SL to save him from the wave of the future. Let it go.

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12 minutes ago, Cameron Highlander said:

That is why i said......."don't beat me up for them".   But please modify them at your discretion Dave

Apologies mate, I didn't mean it as harsh as it maybe sounded, but even basic things like ticket price wouldn't be as high as £30, and fans certainly wouldn't then spend an average of a further £30 on refreshments. I do think the uplift is overstated, but that is just a personal opinion and I'd be very happy to be wrong on that, I know my wife is certainly more interested now SBW is back in RL (not sure what she sees in him!!!). 

But on the flip side, there may be more corporate interest at some of these games so who knows what the numbers will be. 

And there is a risk of injury, or bad weather, or clubs on a bad run of form, which will trump the SBW factor. t

I'll be interesting to watch, but I'd question any rationale like this putting a benefit of a million quid on it just yet. 

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I still do not understand why Sky were allowed to have the rights in North America. That is something that needs to be rectified in the next TV deal.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Hudgell's quote was interesting that TWP didn't play ball with the information requested from SLE. Maybe their negotiating tactic backfired particularly with SLE holding all the cards. 

Yeah that's an interesting strategy from what should be a new partner. They should have showed the books if asked!(I imagine due diligence would be done when any team gets promoted)

Although some things he said left me scratching my head-

SL don't own the TV rights in NA, so Toronto can't sell them.  They sold them to sky (and sky *don't have to* do anything with them). I have a crack pot conspiracy theory about it, but unless anybody asks about it I won't say haha

Another point is they have been talking about it for months, not two weeks like he says.

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4 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Yeah that's an interesting strategy from what should be a new partner. They should have showed the books if asked!(I imagine due diligence would be done when any team gets promoted)

Although some things he said left me scratching my head-

SL don't own the TV rights in NA, so Toronto can't sell them.  They sold them to sky (and sky *don't have to* do anything with them). I have a crack pot conspiracy theory about it, but unless anybody asks about it I won't say haha

Another point is they have been talking about it for months, not two weeks like he says.

You're right that someone alread owns the NA rights but I dont think its sky. 

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5 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Yeah that's an interesting strategy from what should be a new partner. They should have showed the books if asked!(I imagine due diligence would be done when any team gets promoted)

Although some things he said left me scratching my head-

SL don't own the TV rights in NA, so Toronto can't sell them.  They sold them to sky (and sky *don't have to* do anything with them). I have a crack pot conspiracy theory about it, but unless anybody asks about it I won't say haha

Another point is they have been talking about it for months, not two weeks like he says.

It was interesting that Elstone also criticised the fact that this had come up so late in the day, although I'm not sure if his frustration was aimed more at the RFL who are the ones who put it to the SLE board I believe. 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Apologies mate, I didn't mean it as harsh as it maybe sounded, but even basic things like ticket price wouldn't be as high as £30, and fans certainly wouldn't then spend an average of a further £30 on refreshments. I do think the uplift is overstated, but that is just a personal opinion and I'd be very happy to be wrong on that, I know my wife is certainly more interested now SBW is back in RL (not sure what she sees in him!!!). 

But on the flip side, there may be more corporate interest at some of these games so who knows what the numbers will be. 

And there is a risk of injury, or bad weather, or clubs on a bad run of form, which will trump the SBW factor. t

I'll be interesting to watch, but I'd question any rationale like this putting a benefit of a million quid on it just yet. 

OK Dave......fair enough......let's see how it all shakes out.

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Part of the last-minute deal to allow TWP into Super League included the commitment that Wolfpack would pay hotels and flights for SL teams for the 2020 season. This is not what was discussed originally - Wolfpack agreed to accommodation and flights for away teams only while they were in League 1 and Championship.

One might have thought that the extra share of central funding would have easily paid for these costs, but Wolfpack got gouged again.

What happens after 2020? Who can say. How about SL set up its own travel sponsorship deal to cover all the visiting teams?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

No, it's Sky bashing, not Toronto bashing. I think everyone wants to see as many games as possible aired.

I think if anything it show's the weaknesses in the TV deal that got negotiated last time around.

Still think its odd that sky would allow playoff games to go out on CBC but not Super League.

They also allowed Championship games to go out. 

Basically that going to be a steady number of Rugby League fans if shown at a sensible time regardless of the level its played at.

Unless its a change of people at Sky and the attitude towards Toronto has changed.

 

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10 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

You're right that someone alread owns the NA rights but I dont think its sky. 

Fox (under the same umbrella as sky) own the usa rights, I can't find any info about Canada specifically, from what I understood about the Sportsnet world deal they were just buying broadcast feeds from sky (would love to be wrong, just my current understanding)🇨🇦

 

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It was interesting that Elstone also criticised the fact that this had come up so late in the day, although I'm not sure if his frustration was aimed more at the RFL who are the ones who put it to the SLE board I believe. 

Whoever it was aimed at its probably justified.  Unless Toronto were told "let's negotiate this salary cap thing later" in the whole promotion debacle, then it should have been sorted by the point of promotion.

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14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

You're right that someone alread owns the NA rights but I dont think its sky. 

I was under the impression that Sky held the rights to international distribution however the only reference I can find to this goes back to 2015. Not sure why they'd be involved in negotiations with international TV partners otherwise.

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/super_league_ties_up_international_broadcast_rights

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at the end of the day it all boils down to one single question..does RL (and SL in particular) want expansion? if they do they should be supporting the North American beachhead..ie Wolfpack..if they do not then say so and David Argyle, Eric Perez plus NYRL can go about forming an international RL competition, invite Catalans, Olympique, Red Star, Valencia etc etc to the dance and show up the myopic SL owners by making a real success of it. Make me really sad because I'd really miss some of the fantastic and enthusiastic fans that we've had over here during the course of the last 3 years. The whole experiment rekindled my love of the game and generated worldwide interest in European RL something the current braintrust was unable to do prior to the WP coming on the scene. I'd say we were owed some respect and consideration..seems to be in short supply esp in and around Hull!

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Hudgell is absolutely the biggest hypocrite in the game. 

Toronto shouldn't play this out in public but it's perfectly right for him to criticise Adam walker in public

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/37625807

Koukash, Salford and the RFL in public

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/hudgell-criticises-koukash-salford-damning-statement-4733/

Andrew Chalmers 

https://www.totalrl.com/neil-hudgell-issues-scathing-farewell-comment-to-ex-bradford-owner-andrew-chalmers/

Or being one of the vocal owners during the split from the RFL

He had no problem with being cynical.in taking the RFL  to.court through stanley gene to get his club extra quota spots, no problem with deregistering players to.get around the quota.for willie Mason  no issue with being cynical in the signing of Paul Cooke, 

No problem with his own club receiving special dispensation to sign players over the quota

Hard to argue with this to be honest.

 

Like anyone from East Hull, I love Hudg because he saved our club and fights our corner, but he’s always been prepared to push the envelope to do that so this faux moral high ground doesn’t really play well for me. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander 

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14 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

at the end of the day it all boils down to one single question..does RL (and SL in particular) want expansion? if they do they should be supporting the North American beachhead..ie Wolfpack..if they do not then say so and David Argyle, Eric Perez plus NYRL can go about forming an international RL competition, invite Catalans, Olympique, Red Star, Valencia etc etc to the dance and show up the myopic SL owners by making a real success of it. Make me really sad because I'd really miss some of the fantastic and enthusiastic fans that we've had over here during the course of the last 3 years. The whole experiment rekindled my love of the game and generated worldwide interest in European RL something the current braintrust was unable to do prior to the WP coming on the scene. I'd say we were owed some respect and consideration..seems to be in short supply esp in and around Hull!

I suspect that the answer is that they don't really want it because to them it's a headache they'd rather not have to deal with.  That said, if and when a new transatlantic RL competition comes about I wouldn't expect too many of the groups you listed to be involved because other than David Argyle and maybe Eric Pérez's Ottawa group they don't have the sort of money required and in the case of Ricky Wilby and his partner they don't seem to understand the market in the place where they want to set up.

Edited by Big Picture

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49 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

at the end of the day it all boils down to one single question..does RL (and SL in particular) want expansion? if they do they should be supporting the North American beachhead..ie Wolfpack..if they do not then say so and David Argyle, Eric Perez plus NYRL can go about forming an international RL competition, invite Catalans, Olympique, Red Star, Valencia etc etc to the dance and show up the myopic SL owners by making a real success of it. Make me really sad because I'd really miss some of the fantastic and enthusiastic fans that we've had over here during the course of the last 3 years. The whole experiment rekindled my love of the game and generated worldwide interest in European RL something the current braintrust was unable to do prior to the WP coming on the scene. I'd say we were owed some respect and consideration..seems to be in short supply esp in and around Hull!

At the end of the day, it boils down to what Toronto want. Dispensation for one should be the same for others.

I don’t see much, if anything of TWP indulging in a NA league. Flirtations with CRL is again just a mask.

Perez probably called it a day on them once the vision was destroyed.

So ask yourself! Does TWP want expansion? 

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1 hour ago, SL17 said:

So ask yourself! Does TWP want expansion? 

"No, we are an expansion team so we do not want expansion."

For the Love of Mike!,,,,, SL 17 you have to raise your game...you are starting to sound like the SL owners (light bends as it approaches their heads.)...you can do better...I'm a little disappointed in ya.

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