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Scott Sinfield

Has the rugby league scoring system always been like this?

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17 minutes ago, DavidM said:

It was 3 points for a try until the early 80s

Yes, I think it was in 1983 when it changed to 4 points.

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"Men will be proud to say 'I am a European'. We hope to see a day when men of every country will think as much of being a European as of being from their native land." (Winston Churchill)

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In his book, Rugby's Great Split, Prof. Tony Collins says that it was in the second season of Northern Union play that the value of all goals was reduced to two points, and hence less than the three awarded for a try.  I presume this refers to four types of goal, namely drop goal, field goal, penalty goal and the goal after a try (in modern popular parlance, a 'conversion')

So - I think this is right! - at the time of the NU breakaway (and hence in its first season), a try was worth three points, and five points were awarded for successfully kicking the ball between the uprights and over the crossbar, thus converting the try into a goal.  A penalty goal was worth three points, while a drop goal and field goal were each worth four.

I would be grateful for confirmation or correction of this from one of our esteemed historians such as Padge or Number 16.

Edited by Wiltshire Warrior Dragon
missing word

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Is there a difference between a field goal and a drop goal?

I always thought this was just a difference in Aussie and UK vocabulary 

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58 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

In his book, Rugby's Great Split, Prof. Tony Collins says that it was in the second season of Northern Union play that the value of all goals was reduced to two points, and hence less than the three awarded for a try.  I presume this refers to four types of goal, namely drop goal, field goal, penalty goal and the goal after a try (in modern popular parlance, a 'conversion')

So - I think this is right! - at the time of the NU breakaway (and hence in its first season), a try was worth three points, and five points were awarded for successfully kicking the ball between the uprights and over the crossbar, thus converting the try into a goal.  A penalty goal was worth three points, while a drop goal and field goal were each worth four.

I would be grateful for confirmation or correction of this from one of our esteemed historians such as Padge or Number 16.

The points values as you state were the correct ones though what you describe as 'field goal' was actually 'goal scored from mark'. A player making a "fair catch" as described in the 1895 rules had the option to mark the ball and take a shot at goal from the place where they made the catch. This was worth 4 points like the drop goal was. I don't think it was clear what constituted 'a fair catch' but it is likely to have been a player catching the ball after it had been kicked into the air by an opposing player whilst in the field of play.

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In the early days of Rugby, a try was worth nothing unless it was "converted" into points with a successful kick. Hence the word conversion.

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"Men will be proud to say 'I am a European'. We hope to see a day when men of every country will think as much of being a European as of being from their native land." (Winston Churchill)

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1 minute ago, Futtocks said:

In the early days of Rugby, a try was worth nothing unless it was "converted" into points with a successful kick. Hence the word conversion.

Yes, it is called a try as it allowed the team achieving it to have a try at kicking a goal. All points initially came from goals only. Later but still pre-1895 different public schools and local organisations used their own scoring systems with some counting tries and some not. Some I believe used a count of tries (while still worth 0 points) only in the event of no goals being scored in order to determine a winner. Only later as the forms of football became codified by the Victorian administrators were universal scoring methods adopted within the rugby (pre-1895 split) code.

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14 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

Is there a difference between a field goal and a drop goal?

I always thought this was just a difference in Aussie and UK vocabulary 

The 'field goal', which could be scored in open play by kicking a loose ball above the cross bar and between the posts,It was abolished.in 1922

 

 

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regards scoring

in 1897

  • The value of a drop goal was reduced from four points to two points
  • The value of a penalty goal was reduced from three points to two points.
  • The value of a goal from mark was reduced from four points to two points
  • The value of a field goal was reduced from four points to two points.

in 1971

Value of a drop goal was reduced from two points to one point

in 1983

The value of try was increased from three points to four points

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43 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

Is there a difference between a field goal and a drop goal?

I always thought this was just a difference in Aussie and UK vocabulary 

Yes, it's yet another "aussieism" that has found it's way into the RL language of this country ... but, as with anything else, because they do it then we have to follow !

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3 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Yes, it's yet another "aussieism" that has found it's way into the RL language of this country ... but, as with anything else, because they do it then we have to follow !

We say both “field goal” and “drop goal” in Australia.

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1 minute ago, Copa said:

We say both “field goal” and “drop goal” in Australia.

Over there that's OK... but in the UK it was always "drop-goal" until your version got imported along with "bust" (breakthough), "hit" (tackle"), "offload" (pass), "touchdown" (try), "lock" (loose forward), "five eighth" (stand off).

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35 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Over there that's OK... but in the UK it was always "drop-goal" until your version got imported along with "bust" (breakthough), "hit" (tackle"), "offload" (pass), "touchdown" (try), "lock" (loose forward), "five eighth" (stand off).

Offload and hit have specific meanings  that differentiate from pass and tackle, and I’ve never heard any British fan call a try a touchdown, a stand-off a five-eighth or a loose forward a lock. Never heard of breakthrough either. Other than that, great point.

Edited by Man of Kent
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12 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Offload and hit have specific meanings  that differentiate from pass and tackle, and I’ve never heard any British fan call a try a touchdown, a stand-off a five-eighth or a loose forward a lock. Never heard of breakthrough either. Other than that, great point.

Again, I didn't say that British fans used those terms but they are used reguarly in conversation when Aussies are on tv.   I often hear of people "breaking through" a tackle.  Off load and hit were never used in the past before the influx of those from down under.

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Offload and hit have specific meanings  that differentiate from pass and tackle, and I’ve never heard any British fan call a try a touchdown, a stand-off a five-eighth or a loose forward a lock. Never heard of breakthrough either. Other than that, great point.

I looked in to what a five-eighth was a good while ago as didn’t understand the terminology.. From what I learnt was it’s a zonal position of the stand off next to the centres. Basically they don’t have free reign.

Edited by SL17

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8 hours ago, POR said:

The 'field goal', which could be scored in open play by kicking a loose ball above the cross bar and between the posts,It was abolished.in 1922

It was abolished in 1950. The deviant Australians, who had no right to change the laws of the game, abolished it under some sort of local change to the sport's rules 1922. Worse still, they for some reason managed to start using the term 'field goal' for the completely different drop goal which is why there is some confusion now about what the field goal actually was.

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1 hour ago, M j M said:

It was abolished in 1950. The deviant Australians, who had no right to change the laws of the game, abolished it under some sort of local change to the sport's rules 1922. Worse still, they for some reason managed to start using the term 'field goal' for the completely different drop goal which is why there is some confusion now about what the field goal actually was.

Spot on, MjM. 

The irony of the Aussies confusing the situation is that one of their greatest ever players, Dally Messenger, was, by all accounts, something of a field goal specialist.  So, now try telling that to a young Aussie kid with no knowledge of RL's history and they will have completely the wrong image in their head.

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12 hours ago, wiganermike said:

The points values as you state were the correct ones though what you describe as 'field goal' was actually 'goal scored from mark'. A player making a "fair catch" as described in the 1895 rules had the option to mark the ball and take a shot at goal from the place where they made the catch. This was worth 4 points like the drop goal was. I don't think it was clear what constituted 'a fair catch' but it is likely to have been a player catching the ball after it had been kicked into the air by an opposing player whilst in the field of play.

Thanks for confirming the score values, Wiganermike, but, like POR, I suspect that a goal from a mark and a field goal were different things.

As to what constituted a 'fair catch' for a mark, I don't know.  In Australian Rules football, in which taking marks continues to be a key feature, the current definition of one seems to be merely to have control of the ball in the hands for the briefest of moments.  Whether it was ever thus, I do not know.

I first played rugby - the union code - in the early 1960s.  At that time, you could claim a mark anywhere on the field of play, but, as I recall, you had to catch the ball on the fly, shout "Mark!" and dig one of your heels into the ground all exactly simultaneously.  As with knock-ons, the rule was subsequently relaxed somewhat; I think you no longer needed to do more than catch and shout at the same time.

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12 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Over there that's OK... but in the UK it was always "drop-goal" until your version got imported along with "bust" (breakthough), "hit" (tackle"), "offload" (pass), "touchdown" (try), "lock" (loose forward), "five eighth" (stand off).

Yes, the Australians describe a drop goal as a field goal and use five-eights and lock for stand off and loose forward.

But they don't say offload when they mean pass... they say pass.  A pass and an offload are two different things.

And they don't say touchdown when they mean try... they say try.

In fact, why don't you have a look at the clip of Brad Parker's try here https://www.nrl.com/draw/nrl-premiership/2020/round-3/sea-eagles-v-bulldogs/ where the commentators enthuse about the pass Tom Trbojevic sending Parker over for a try... not an 'offload' sending Parker over for a 'touchdown'.

And the word 'bust' is usually used for breaking a tackle - as in 'tackle bust'... the term break is still used when breaking the line.  I have been involved in Rugby League for over 30 years and the first time I came across 'breakthrough' was when you posted it yesterday.

And the Australians use the word tackles to mean a tackle... they use 'hit' to represent a big tackle... I have heard 'big hit' in the UK game for as long as I can remember.

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1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Thanks for confirming the score values, Wiganermike, but, like POR, I suspect that a goal from a mark and a field goal were different things.

As to what constituted a 'fair catch' for a mark, I don't know.  In Australian Rules football, in which taking marks continues to be a key feature, the current definition of one seems to be merely to have control of the ball in the hands for the briefest of moments.  Whether it was ever thus, I do not know.

I first played rugby - the union code - in the early 1960s.  At that time, you could claim a mark anywhere on the field of play, but, as I recall, you had to catch the ball on the fly, shout "Mark!" and dig one of your heels into the ground all exactly simultaneously.  As with knock-ons, the rule was subsequently relaxed somewhat; I think you no longer needed to do more than catch and shout at the same time.

That's true   in a goal from a mark only  the player who called the mark was allowed to take a shot at goal 

a field goal could happen anywhere on the field any time through the game when the balls  on the ground any player could run up and take a shot a goal and if it missed and stayed in play on the ground they could have another go

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4 hours ago, M j M said:

It was abolished in 1950. The deviant Australians, who had no right to change the laws of the game, abolished it under some sort of local change to the sport's rules 1922. Worse still, they for some reason managed to start using the term 'field goal' for the completely different drop goal which is why there is some confusion now about what the field goal actually was.

Were many points scored this way?


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Were many points scored this way?

 

Hard to say.  They're just recorded as goals.  In the same way that it's hard to tell penalties from conversions unless you read the match reports.

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