Sun 21 Jun: NRL: Canberra Raiders v Manly Sea Eagles KO 7.05am BST (Sky Sports)

[John Drake]

Discuss Canberra Raiders v Manly Sea Eagles here.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

This is a tough pick, the silvertails have provedv dogged and can grind out a resuilt and Canberra were not at their best last week. As a patriot I will be backing the bris in the Raiders on this one.

Canberra by 4

[Man of Kent]

The Raiders’ right edge is a bit poo without John Bateman & Joey Leilua. Gone backwards. 

[Futtocks]

A very good, tough win by Manly, with all their injury problems.

[Wolford6]

What a great game that was.

[Guest]

Canberra were awful, they have really gone backwards since last season. Doesn’t look like there is anyone taking charge and leading the team on the field.

[Dunbar]

The Raiders are far too predictable in attack. Wighton and Williams are both very good individual players but they are being split left and right all the time and all the defence have to to is number off and defend one play maker each play.

I can't help but feel they will only become truly dangerous when these two link up more.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

The Raiders are far too predictable in attack. Wighton and Williams are both very good individual players but they are being split left and right all the time and all the defence have to to is number off and defend one play maker each play.

I can't help but feel they will only become truly dangerous when these two link up more.

Whether as you say it was good defence or Wighton had an off game? his standards recently have been exceptional and has been for me the reason when Canberra play well it is on the strength of his go forward that carries the team along, he wasn't doing that today and they looked void of any monentum and idea's.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

Ricky's Raiders on the crest of a slump badly need John Bateman back. They have been off-key for three weeks now. Phyrric victory for Manly in that the long -term injuries will damage their premiership ambitions. Des Hasler teams are well coached sides but that can only take you so far without the spark of invention that "Tom Turbo" gives them.

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The Raiders are far too predictable in attack. Wighton and Williams are both very good individual players but they are being split left and right all the time and all the defence have to to is number off and defend one play maker each play.

I can't help but feel they will only become truly dangerous when these two link up more.

But generally that's the way teams play these days, with 6 and 7 work one side each and the defacto scrum half is the nr9.  At the moment the 9 picks up the ball he is effectively 12 yards away from the opposing defensive line.

[Dunbar]

7 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

But generally that's the way teams play these days, with 6 and 7 work one side each and the defacto scrum half is the nr9.  At the moment the 9 picks up the ball he is effectively 12 yards away from the opposing defensive line.

It's how a lot of teams set up but when you watch the likes of the Roosters play, their halves are tasked with setting up attack on both sides of the ruck with two ball players linking and runners offering options from both. It is effective and much more difficult to defend than the one ball player, one edge forward, one centre and the full back out the back that is the standard fare these days.

[Rupert Prince]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It's how a lot of teams set up but when you watch the likes of the Roosters play, their halves are tasked with setting up attack on both sides of the ruck with two ball players linking and runners offering options from both. It is effective and much more difficult to defend than the one ball player, one edge forward, one centre and the full back out the back that is the standard fare these days.

No matter how good a playmaker might be, on how ever many sides, if he has no support runners it's a bit pointless.

[Hullfan]

Canberra ain't a good side. Hodgson the slug, just slow and lethargic. Williams were has he been?? Whitehead is the best canberra player by a mile

[DavidM]

Good effort against adversity by Manly , 16 men ... 15 men ... then 14 , but it also says as much about the Raiders . They were awful. Totally clunky , devoid of any creativity and fluency at all . For the first time I didn’t think Williams offered anything really despite a few speculative kicks . They just looked collectively way off . Excellent defence by Manly just tackling the limited attacks that came at them . Very disappointing from the green machine . Again I don’t really know what a lot of these restarts are for , they seem so minimal. And one incident late on - Young grabs Joel Thompson’s leg and dumps him and the ref says don’t do that go back and play the ball . How is that not a penalty , I say again turn that round and it is 

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, DavidM said:

but it also says as much about the Raiders . They were awful. Totally clunky , devoid of any creativity and fluency at all . For the first time I didn’t think Williams offered anything really despite a few speculative kicks . They just looked collectively way off .

As an aside and update from my previous post on Williams and Wighton.  Too much of their ball movement is away from the defensive line, in particular Williams at the moment. He is dropping players off and throwing passes but it is 4 or 5 yards away from the line and defences can just watch the play unfold before committing to the tackle. 

He needs to square up and bite into the line before he moves the ball... as he has a very good running game, he will be dangerous with the run option or the late release. At the moment it obviously an early pass or a run and so the defences have absolutely no decisions to make.

[DavidM]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

As an aside and update from my previous post on Williams and Wighton.  Too much of their ball movement is away from the defensive line, in particular Williams at the moment. He is dropping players off and throwing passes but it is 4 or 5 yards away from the line and defences can just watch the play unfold before committing to the tackle. 

He needs to square up and bite into the line before he moves the ball... as he has a very good running game, he will be dangerous with the run option or the late release. At the moment it obviously an early pass or a run and so the defences have absolutely no decisions to make.

Indeed , it was to predictable , lateral and to often easily readable in front of the defensive line . Williams and Wighton are also quite fractured and playing separate games quite a bit when they could be a lethal combination 

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

As an aside and update from my previous post on Williams and Wighton.  Too much of their ball movement is away from the defensive line, in particular Williams at the moment. He is dropping players off and throwing passes but it is 4 or 5 yards away from the line and defences can just watch the play unfold before committing to the tackle. 

He needs to square up and bite into the line before he moves the ball... as he has a very good running game, he will be dangerous with the run option or the late release. At the moment it obviously an early pass or a run and so the defences have absolutely no decisions to make.

I don’t necessarily agree with that.  Stuart is splitting them but their support and timing just isn’t right today (I’ve only watched the first half).  I would like to see GW attack the line a few times, early, to unnerve them.  Both he and Wighton are playing a very controlled game and yes, certainly appear to be easy to read.  I doubt Stuart will change too much as, personally, I don’t think they look that bad so far.

[Dunbar]

50 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I don’t necessarily agree with that.  Stuart is splitting them but their support and timing just isn’t right today (I’ve only watched the first half).  I would like to see GW attack the line a few times, early, to unnerve them.  Both he and Wighton are playing a very controlled game and yes, certainly appear to be easy to read.  I doubt Stuart will change too much as, personally, I don’t think they look that bad so far.

Certainly your prerogative but I think they have looked very very clunky - in the last 3 weeks in particular.

Unlike many NRL teams they don't have a ball playing option at full back in Nicoll-Klokstad so more creativity is required from their 6, 7, 9 combinations and I don't feel they are getting that at the moment.

Of course Wighton and Williams are capable of a great play but as a team they are working hard but not offering any real threat at the moment.

When the Raiders have been at their best in the last couple of years, they have been playing less structured rugby and have been a lot less predictable.  With Williams more of a dynamic player than Sezar, I expected that to continue but it seems to have gone the other way.

[Dunbar]

Just to stress my last point.

In the first six games of the year Tom Trbojevic and Lattrell Mitchell have 17 and 16 try assists or line break assists respectively.

James Tedesco and Val Homles have played five gales each and have 12 and 11 try assists/line break assists.

Nicoll-Klokstad has no try assists and just one line break assist.

Now this doesn't mean that Nicoll-Klokstad is a poor player - quite the opposite, he is a good fullback who does many things well.  But he is not a creative player and he doesn't provide that 3rd pivot option that a lot of the best teams have.  This means that Williams and Wighton carry the burden of creativity and they are not producing as consistently as Stuart would like.  Without the ball handling full back the defence also have one less option to worry about on the shift plays and I think this is showing with a relatively poor offence in recent weeks.

Of course the Raiders still have game breaking players and will still get wins but without Bateman at the moment and Joey Leilua they do look a little blunt on the edge.

[Lowdesert]

13 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Certainly your prerogative but I think they have looked very very clunky - in the last 3 weeks in particular.

Unlike many NRL teams they don't have a ball playing option at full back in Nicoll-Klokstad so more creativity is required from their 6, 7, 9 combinations and I don't feel they are getting that at the moment.

Of course Wighton and Williams are capable of a great play but as a team they are working hard but not offering any real threat at the moment.

When the Raiders have been at their best in the last couple of years, they have been playing less structured rugby and have been a lot less predictable.  With Williams more of a dynamic player than Sezar, I expected that to continue but it seems to have gone the other way.

Not a lot in the game at the end.  Yes, it seems clunky/wooden, not cohesive and GW seemed a little reserved.  Hopefully he will come good.  He has his work cut out imo.

 

[DoubleD]

On 21/06/2020 at 20:19, Dunbar said:

Just to stress my last point.

In the first six games of the year Tom Trbojevic and Lattrell Mitchell have 17 and 16 try assists or line break assists respectively.

James Tedesco and Val Homles have played five gales each and have 12 and 11 try assists/line break assists.

Nicoll-Klokstad has no try assists and just one line break assist.

Now this doesn't mean that Nicoll-Klokstad is a poor player - quite the opposite, he is a good fullback who does many things well.  But he is not a creative player and he doesn't provide that 3rd pivot option that a lot of the best teams have.  This means that Williams and Wighton carry the burden of creativity and they are not producing as consistently as Stuart would like.  Without the ball handling full back the defence also have one less option to worry about on the shift plays and I think this is showing with a relatively poor offence in recent weeks.

Of course the Raiders still have game breaking players and will still get wins but without Bateman at the moment and Joey Leilua they do look a little blunt on the edge.

Just watched the game so first chance to offer my thoughts.

I agree that Canberra were poor and clunky, particularly given the injuries Manly suffered. Full credit to the resolve Manly showed and DCE led them well. I thought Williams was one of Canberra's better players but as others have pointed out neither him nor Wighton shone. Hodgson had a poor game and Scott hasn't looked upto standard, which is disappointing as i thought he'd be an improvement on Leilua.

I've also never got the hype on Cotric.............he's a good player, particularly for his age but he hasn't got an X factor. I'm surprised he rose to rep level.

Too many players seem off form for the Raiders at the moment. CNK doesn't look the same player as last season..........perhaps teams have just worked him out. As you pointed out, he's not a creative full back so has his limitations.

Plenty to work on, and Bateman is a big miss but I don't think the Raiders are too far off clicking

[bobbruce]

Raiders have the look of a team who got up for one big game and have since gone through a slump. Like teams after a WCC or CC final. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to get up for the Eels game and sneak a win if that does happen I doubt they’ll be too worried about where they are.