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"We've got a bit of a PR issue lads, in that we're seen as a small-town sport with no ambition and an actual hostility towards anyone who might actually want to attract new fans to the game." "Wh

From the fourth largest city in North America to a satellite town of Wigan. Small towns, small ambitions, small chance of expansion. Great chance of remaining small, parochial and northern. 

Congratulations to Leigh Centurions. If every club in the system had to go through this process then they would be one of the top 12 candidates so full credit to them. I hope they give it a great crac

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9 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

How are you measuring this 'ambition'? 

I think you're looking for a well argued evidential approach to issues and debate. So you haven't been on't intinerweb very long then?

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13 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So you want us to spend much more than the other local academies by asking players to relocate ?

How would you be spending more,Wigan,Saints & Warrington have had plenty of players that had to relocate,they also spend money on coaching camps in the likes of Cumbria/Wales.

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12 hours ago, Oldbear said:

York and Fev - both great little clubs with good coaching and off field set ups, this may be a year too early for York and neither has any SL experience to call upon...

The decision is done so the point I'm about to make is moot, but I'll make it anyway... 🙂 

13 players out of York's 28 man squad in 2021 have played Super League.

Between them, they have a combined total of exactly 2000 top flight (SL, NRL & rep) appearances.

Head Coach James Ford played Super League with Castleford.

Chairman Jon Flatman was Commercial Manager at Hull FC and General Manager at Wakefield.

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3 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

The decision is done so the point I'm about to make is moot, but I'll make it anyway... 🙂 

13 players out of York's 28 man squad in 2021 have played Super League.

Between them, they have a combined total of exactly 2000 top flight (SL, NRL & rep) appearances.

Head Coach James Ford played Super League with Castleford.

Chairman Jon Flatman was Commercial Manager at Hull FC and General Manager at Wakefield.

York will have their day soon enough Gav. Keeping hold of fordy may be an issue like.... longer term

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13 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

Hearty congratulations to Leigh and their fans,and I really hope they manage to stay up.Most people agree that Degsy will have to dig deep in order to improve the squad.Do the Leigh fans on here feel he will need to upgrade his coaching team with someone who has S.L. experience.

After last time when Cunningham was brought in which was a total disaster, Mr Beaumont may be once bitten, but I think it is something were he should keep his options open. 

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19 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So is the system flawed, could it be better utilised if marshalled in some way than just a free for all, if the talent was spread around a little more would kids be enticed to other clubs than just the best going to the big three or 4 teams.

If we are looking to having more kids playing the sport beyond youth level we really need to do something that favours more clubs, but the clubs need to buy into the lads welfare also as the big 3 or 4 already do.

The only sport that achieves such marshalling around of talent is the NFL, and they can do that because being at any one of the teams isn't significantly worse than being at any other, because they are all franchised in the same league. You can't seriously expect any sport with 2+ divisions (and therefore the prospect of relegation) to implement such a system - as we'd continuously be risking our best talent getting relegated. I never thought I'd see you arguing for a franchised model, but you are in $uperGreed now! 😉 It no surprise for example that the very best Bradford academy talent has come through most often when they were in Super League (under a license) and that it has slowed up since relegation.

The only way in a wholly competitive field, which RL is with relegation, to get more clubs with better youth teams is for them to invest in it themselves. Warrington and Huddersfield have for example, Leeds, Wigan and Saints have too to maintain their positions' so its not like they're unearned or univested in their academy success. London have the advantage that they have a monopoly on talent from the South East so they're slightly different. In crude terms you have to spend money to make money (and players too in this instance), as the reason the best academies are the best is because they invest the most money in them consistently over an extended period of time. They also don't take their position for granted hence the continual investment and broad search for talent.

Like I said previously you've got to think a bit outside the box and invest a lot of money otherwise you'll just be a worse version of Leeds, Wigan or Saints. Warrington have invested loads in facilities for example meaning they are at worst equivalent to the big teams standard and probably better in some aspects. Another way might be offering top youth players more money than what the current big 3 with their libor rates style arrangements can - and I'm talking a noticeable difference not 40 quid extra a week. Another might be establishing a reserve team to play in the lower leagues, guaranteeing a pathway at a higher level than just academy for young talent. A long term point could be a reputational commitment to youth promotion rather than signing a full team from elsewhere, though that would take a while to fully filter into success and for some would be at odds with not getting relegated.

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7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The only sport that achieves such marshalling around of talent is the NFL, and they can do that because being at any one of the teams isn't significantly worse than being at any other, because they are all franchised in the same league. You can't seriously expect any sport with 2+ divisions (and therefore the prospect of relegation) to implement such a system - as we'd continuously be risking our best talent getting relegated. I never thought I'd see you arguing for a franchised model, but you are in $uperGreed now! 😉 It no surprise for example that the very best Bradford academy talent has come through most often when they were in Super League (under a license) and that it has slowed up since relegation.

The only way in a wholly competitive field, which RL is with relegation, to get more clubs with better youth teams is for them to invest in it themselves. Warrington and Huddersfield have for example, Leeds, Wigan and Saints have too to maintain their positions' so its not like they're unearned or univested in their academy success. London have the advantage that they have a monopoly on talent from the South East so they're slightly different. In crude terms you have to spend money to make money (and players too in this instance), as the reason the best academies are the best is because they invest the most money in them consistently over an extended period of time. They also don't take their position for granted hence the continual investment and broad search for talent.

Like I said previously you've got to think a bit outside the box and invest a lot of money otherwise you'll just be a worse version of Leeds, Wigan or Saints. Warrington have invested loads in facilities for example meaning they are at worst equivalent to the big teams standard and probably better in some aspects. Another way might be offering top youth players more money than what the current big 3 with their libor rates style arrangements can - and I'm talking a noticeable difference not 40 quid extra a week. Another might be establishing a reserve team to play in the lower leagues, guaranteeing a pathway at a higher level than just academy for young talent. A long term point could be a reputational commitment to youth promotion rather than signing a full team from elsewhere, though that would take a while to fully filter into success and for some would be at odds with not getting relegated.

Thanks for the reply food for thought, I did pose an open question to the topic and you have given an interpretation, I doubt anyone else will.

You are very correct though with the bit in bold, you will never see me arguing for a franchised model, which I wasn't aware that I had done. 

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17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the reply food for thought, I did pose an open question to the topic and you have given an interpretation, I doubt anyone else will.

You are very correct though with the bit in bold, you will never see me arguing for a franchised model, which I wasn't aware that I had done. 

I know you won't Harry, but I'm sure you recognise that there are significant costs attached to that in another area (youth development) which you champion. FWIW I think the invest in your youth set up is a good principle regardless of the league system, as is investment anyway, as investment and competition drives the sport forwards.

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4 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

The decision is done so the point I'm about to make is moot, but I'll make it anyway... 🙂 

13 players out of York's 28 man squad in 2021 have played Super League.

Between them, they have a combined total of exactly 2000 top flight (SL, NRL & rep) appearances.

Head Coach James Ford played Super League with Castleford.

Chairman Jon Flatman was Commercial Manager at Hull FC and General Manager at Wakefield.

I think if you applied this criteria to other applicants, York would fair too well in comparison. York are on the up but this was too soon and would have set you back years.

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9 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

How are you measuring this 'ambition'? 

In what way do you discern that the latter 3 have more than the incumbent 4?

Did Leigh/London/Widnes/Halifax have more 'ambition' than those 4? 

How do you measure the level of the 4's lack of 'ambition'?

It's easy to talk the talk of 'ambition', but walking the walk is somewhat more difficult.

Ambition is fine until it meets the brick wall of reality.

What remaining in SL needs is more money, and lots of it. 

What it needs is owners who are willing to invest and not just be happy to survive,  I want my team to be challenging for things, when you become stagnant this is when you start loosing fans same as when you are winning everything all the time as Wigan did in the 80s it's all about being competitive. 

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1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I think if you applied this criteria to other applicants, York would fair too well in comparison. York are on the up but this was too soon and would have set you back years.

Fair point , as gav pointed out13 of the current York squad featured at superleague level, but this was in the past and most were fringe players , York need to establish themselves as a top championship club , then try and push for superleague.

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28 minutes ago, georgeb1 said:

Fair point , as gav pointed out13 of the current York squad featured at superleague level, but this was in the past and most were fringe players , York need to establish themselves as a top championship club , then try and push for superleague.

Liam Salter (121 games), Danny Washbrook (337), Danny Kirmond (226), Chris Clarkson (243), Ryan Atkins (373), Adam Cuthbertson (148 SL, 138 NRL) and Kieron Dixon (174) all did well as fringe players...

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22 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Liam Salter (121 games), Danny Washbrook (337), Danny Kirmond (226), Chris Clarkson (243), Ryan Atkins (373), Adam Cuthbertson (148 SL, 138 NRL) and Kieron Dixon (174) all did well as fringe players...

Thanks for the stats gav, as I said fringe , that's why there not in superleague now😀😀😀

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22 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Liam Salter (121 games), Danny Washbrook (337), Danny Kirmond (226), Chris Clarkson (243), Ryan Atkins (373), Adam Cuthbertson (148 SL, 138 NRL) and Kieron Dixon (174) all did well as fringe players...

The case for York was always a good one as were other candidates Gav, and the Knights would've been just as wonderful an addition as Leigh will be.

I like that you're demonstrationg this for us.

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14 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Liam Salter (121 games), Danny Washbrook (337), Danny Kirmond (226), Chris Clarkson (243), Ryan Atkins (373), Adam Cuthbertson (148 SL, 138 NRL) and Kieron Dixon (174) all did well as fringe players...

No disrespect to them I have enjoyed watching all those guy's in the past, but there is another sum that can be totalled up, and it is the reason they have accumulated so many SL games, I refer to their combined age it would be a telling factor in SL, I should imagine all those guy's have been brought to the club to play not sit on the sidelines, I think they would have started quite well, but the rigours would have got to them eventually and I am talking before mid season, and another important factor to consider is the older you get and you take knocks the harder it is to shake them off and the recovery time is much longer, these guy's have been aquired to perform in the Championship and that is where they should be performing. 

York are building quite nicely, and making the Championship a great league, the Championship needs more clubs like York to come through knocking on the door for promotion.

 

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31 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Liam Salter (121 games), Danny Washbrook (337), Danny Kirmond (226), Chris Clarkson (243), Ryan Atkins (373), Adam Cuthbertson (148 SL, 138 NRL) and Kieron Dixon (174) all did well as fringe players...

Bet you're glad people felt able to rain on your parade, as usual Gav!

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16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No disrespect to them I have enjoyed watching all those guy's in the past, but there is another sum that can be totalled up, and it is the reason they have accumulated so many SL games, I refer to their combined age it would be a telling factor in SL, I should imagine all those guy's have been brought to the club to play not sit on the sidelines, I think they would have started quite well, but the rigours would have got to them eventually and I am talking before mid season, and another important factor to consider is the older you get and you take knocks the harder it is to shake them off and the recovery time is much longer, these guy's have been aquired to perform in the Championship and that is where they should be performing. 

York are building quite nicely, and making the Championship a great league, the Championship needs more clubs like York to come through knocking on the door for promotion.

 

This is a perfectly fair and valid post HS.

I was just pointing out that the lads we've signed were far from 'fringe players' in Super League! 😆

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2 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

This is a perfectly fair and valid post HS.

I was just pointing out that the lads we've signed were far from 'fringe players' in Super League! 😆

They would probably be fringe players now though, similar to some of the older experienced SL players Fev have signed like Welham and Kopczak. Be an interesting season next season.

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6 hours ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

What it needs is owners who are willing to invest and not just be happy to survive,  I want my team to be challenging for things, when you become stagnant this is when you start loosing fans same as when you are winning everything all the time as Wigan did in the 80s it's all about being competitive. 

This is just not true though, is it?

An 'investor' or 'sugar daddy' is nice, but it's not usually sustainable, nor does it guarantee success.

A simple solution to a complex problem rarely works.

Money is needed. but it has to be sustainable, what happens when they are no longer there?

As much as it pains me to say it, Leeds has to be the best model for an SL club. They have money behind them which can secure loans etc. but they don't rely on it for their business model.

Huddersfield have Davy and a nice stadium, do they lack ambition?

Hull KR have Hudgell, do they lack ambition?

London is financed bu Hughes, but didn't make a sustained presence in SL.

Marwan at Salford - ploughed cash in, what happened there?

Cas did have someone who didn't have the cash to blow on dreams, but at least did cover their losses.

How long has it taken Warrington and Moran to get established in the top half?

How are the rich, successful club from Odsal doing these days? Were they ambitious? maybe too much so and overstretched themselves.

Leigh are the latest team with a backer and big words.

Even at Wakefield we had someone throwing money around when Glover bought the club from administration. Crowds went up significantly, but only on the back of free tickets. Once those dry up it's hard to persuade all those fans that they have to pay the going rate. Within 3 years he realised he was losing 600k a year and we ended up back on the brink on admin.

Clubs like Wakefield do not lack ambition, they lack a sustainable business model which can finance success at the top level. Their main target is to retain their SL place while developing the business to bring in cash all year round not just at 14 home games. This is a much more difficult task than you give it credit for. Relegation would be the end.

Clearly, Cas & Wakey are further hampered by a lack a facilities to support the business, but replacing them with a cashed-up club with no infrastructure is not viable in the longer term. Both these clubs have put a lot of effort into remedying these deficiencies, but as yet have had no luck. This is not because of lack of ambition. 

Cas got relegated twice, but were strong enough to return.

Wakefield have scraped by for 20 years trying to achieve their goals and have, at times, ridden their luck. If at any point a more viable club had been available based on the criteria set at the time, they would have been gone.

The club at Wakefield is in a stronger position now than at any time that I've been following them since the early 70s. They are closer than ever to achieving their goals. The final piece of the jigsaw is the stadium and ancillary facilities. If they start to build next year, they might be saved, if not, they will be removed next time round.

Their ambition has never waned.

They are not 'just happy to survive' but that is a fundamental prerequisite for success.

 

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