The Away fans argument

[Mr Plow]

I dont understand it, why is it such a big factor? Shouldn’t clubs be focusing on growing their own fan base? Do Toulouse and Catalans rely on away fans?

[MattSantos]

Or the NFLers.

Its just an excuse for incredibly poor management

[Dave T]

It's just another example of opposing camps hanging on a minor point going to extreme polar opposites.

RL as a sport in the UK has been built on local rivalries and I think it is fair to enjoy the away support element at grounds, so I think there is an element of the overall experience being somewhat affected if we lose that element through a more international league. I've enjoyed many Catalans games at the HJ, but they are very different experiences to a game involving a team bringing even 750 fans. Even Catalans and TWP were looking forward to the benefits travelling fans bring. 

The financial side is what people often focus on, and whilst it is right that it is a relatively minor line on a budget, it can be worth a good few hundred k per club, or a couple of million across SL over the year. 

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Mr Plow said:

I dont understand it, why is it such a big factor? Shouldn’t clubs be focusing on growing their own fan base? Do Toulouse and Catalans rely on away fans?

I dont even begin to understand what you are driving at.  Whats wrong with away fans? 

[philipw]

14 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I dont even begin to understand what you are driving at.  Whats wrong with away fans? 

There is nothing wrong at all with away fans. I think the issue arises when clubs and fans make the point about other clubs not bringing any, when realistically, home clubs shouldn't be relying on away fans to boost ticket sales - they should be looking at maximising their own support to increase their income streams. 

[Eddie]

Decent away support makes a game better imho, as the atmosphere is so much better, but I wouldn’t let that stop expansion. 

[Damien]

I don't think anyone disagrees on whether away fans are great and add to the atmosphere. They certainly do and thats beyond doubt.

The disagreement is more if that should be a major factor when it comes to decisions and whether a few thousand pounds once a year should influence decisions in a top flight fully professional competition.

[Rupert Prince]

11 minutes ago, philipw said:

There is nothing wrong at all with away fans. I think the issue arises when clubs and fans make the point about other clubs not bringing any, when realistically, home clubs shouldn't be relying on away fans to boost ticket sales - they should be looking at maximising their own support to increase their income streams. 

Who is saying, I mean what clubs are saying, that they need to rely on away fans?

Surely no one is saying they "need" fans, away or otherwise.  With no fans there is no game.  Away fans are part of that and I would have thought that all clubs would be very wise to welcome away fans.  It's part of the game.  None of that stops clubs from still growing tbeir own fan base... no one is saying otherwise.

This issue seems absurd.

[Tonka]

Rugby league fans: games are better with lots of away fans

Also rugby league fans: I'm not travelling there on a Friday night / Pay how much for parking/a pie/a pint? / If we merge I'm no way travelling 10 miles just to watch a match!

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Rugby league fans: games are better with lots of away fans

Also rugby league fans: I'm not travelling there on a Friday night / Pay how much for parking/a pie/a pint? / If we merge I'm no way travelling 10 miles just to watch a match!

This this this this this this this this this ...

Honestly, the distances covered by soccer fans, even union fans, and we have people regarding a journey to another bit of the same (historic) county as a problem.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I’d add...

RL Fans: RL is the greatest game and is held back by a biased media.

Also RL Fans: Hey stranger, keep away from our game. 

"Oh so you once watched a union game did you? Well, have you said sorry for the government of entirely different country removing the property of the rugby league there in the 1930s? And, I'm sorry, but being born a decade after rugby union went open is no excuse for not watching my slide show on why shamateurism is wrong."

[Mr Plow]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

I dont even begin to understand what you are driving at.  Whats wrong with away fans? 

Nothing but some clubs are reliant on away fans rather than growing their own fan bases to turn over a profit

[Scubby]

Are the number of fans travelling to away games (forget 2020) increasing over time or decreasing? If they are falling off (which I suspect is right) for a number of socio economic reasons then it is a questionable target to chase and rely on in the long run. The days  of 2-3k fans from Yorkshire filling the away ends at Wigan and Saints are long gone.

[philipw]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Who is saying, I mean what clubs are saying, that they need to rely on away fans?

Surely no one is saying they "need" fans, away or otherwise.  With no fans there is no game.  Away fans are part of that and I would have thought that all clubs would be very wise to welcome away fans.  It's part of the game.  None of that stops clubs from still growing tbeir own fan base... no one is saying otherwise.

This issue seems absurd.

You really need to ask abut who has negative opinions on clubs that dont bring large away followings? So the criticisms of such against the likes of Catalans, London, Toronto etc never happened? Ok....

[DOGFATHER]

2 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

I dont understand it, why is it such a big factor? Shouldn’t clubs be focusing on growing their own fan base? Do Toulouse and Catalans rely on away fans?

They should, but whilst there is relatively so little money in the game, away fans will be a major factor to a lot, if not all of the clubs, but especially those outside of the regular top 4 or 5.

The SC is circa £2M a season excluding marquee players, which some clubs cannot reach anyway. At £20 a game, it doesn't take many away fans to make a significant dent in paying for the annual playing budget.

 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I've enjoyed many Catalans games at the HJ, but they are very different experiences to a game involving a team bringing even 750 fans. Even Catalans and TWP were looking forward to the benefits travelling fans bring. 

I think it's fair to say that "different" does not necessarily mean "worse". I've been to sporting events (both RL and other sports) where there were completely partisan crowds and the atmospheres are amongst the most memorable. That atmosphere was, for the most part, influenced by the occasion and the action on the field, not by one group of people making disparaging chants towards a different group of people. 

I get the argument about the whole "local tribalism" thing, but I do question how relevant that is to anyone beyond the core "RL diehard audience". 

In terms of the business side of it, I think it's equally a fair point. We have seen club chairmen in the past blame a lack of away fans for poor attendances and, frankly, it's an excuse that wears pretty thin (along with excuses about Thursday nights). 

Focusing on away fans are a short-term approach, and I'd argue that it's coming at the expense of long term thinking in many facets of the sport's running. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think it's fair to say that "different" does not necessarily mean "worse". I've been to sporting events (both RL and other sports) where there were completely partisan crowds and the atmospheres are amongst the most memorable. That atmosphere was, for the most part, influenced by the occasion and the action on the field, not by one group of people making disparaging chants towards a different group of people. 

I get the argument about the whole "local tribalism" thing, but I do question how relevant that is to anyone beyond the core "RL diehard audience". 

In terms of the business side of it, I think it's equally a fair point. We have seen club chairmen in the past blame a lack of away fans for poor attendances and, frankly, it's an excuse that wears pretty thin (along with excuses about Thursday nights). 

Focusing on away fans are a short-term approach, and I'd argue that it's coming at the expense of long term thinking in many facets of the sport's running. 

I'm not so sure. If you were going to take a brand new person to a game, I think they would leave with a better perception of a Wigan v Saints game than Wigan v Catalans. And I take the point that different is not worse, as I say, I quite enjoy a more relaxed atmosphere watching a match in the sun in shorts with a beer.

I'm not sure how much clubs really focus on away fans, they are an income stream just like food sales, or merchandise, or sponsorship, they form part of the budget. I'm not sure it is given as much weight as people on here often state.

[Barry Badrinath]

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

It’s almost certainly a leisure thing. Not many people today are going to seek out and actively follow a sport as unglamorous as RL, let alone when you throw in the growth of home entertainment like Netflix or gaming etc etc

hence why warrington were trying so hard last year to get social media attention outside the RL bubble, tryring to get more bums on seats and people through the turnstile, trying to get attendances up and a more positive vibrant outlook for the league in approach to the new TV deal.

and obviously, everyone,(including a lot of warrington fans) crapped all over it.

 

 

Welcome to Rugby league, are you local? there's nothing for you here!

[whatmichaelsays]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not so sure. If you were going to take a brand new person to a game, I think they would leave with a better perception of a Wigan v Saints game than Wigan v Catalans. And I take the point that different is not worse, as I say, I quite enjoy a more relaxed atmosphere watching a match in the sun in shorts with a beer.

I'm not sure how much clubs really focus on away fans, they are an income stream just like food sales, or merchandise, or sponsorship, they form part of the budget. I'm not sure it is given as much weight as people on here often state.

I think that comes down to how much of a role you think the crowd plays as part of the "impression" this sport gives vs the many other elements. The last Wigan v Saints game had zero atmosphere from the stands, but will be remembered for the occasion, the intensity and the drama that all played out on the field. 

For me, that's where the discussion about the "product" is important. Would I take someone to a run-of-the-mill Wigan v Catalans game? Probably not, but not because there wouldn't be much of an atmosphere from the stands. I wouldn't take them because I think the  game would lack the sort of on-field intensity that I think would attract a new fan - but the same would apply to a "run-of-the-mill" Wigan v Saints game, albeit to a slightly lesser degree. 

The short-termist "away fans" thinking that is used as the justification for making Wigan and St Helens play each other four-six times per season is detracting from the long-term thinking - and about how much damage that thinking is doing to the overall product. That's why I think "away fans" does play a bigger part in club and governance thinking to a degree that is somewhat more than simply "a line item in the budget". 

Would I take someone to a Wigan v Saints game knowing that it was one of potentially six opportunities to see that fixture in a given nine-month period and where "the result doesn't really matter because we'll play them again in seven weeks"? No. Would I be more likely to take someone to a Wigan v St Helens game knowing that that game was the highlight, must-have ticket of the season where everything mattered? Absolutely - and what the sport should be doing is trying to make it's fixtures much more like that.

Yes, you're not going to make it as intense as a local derby against your near neighbours, but why can't Wigan v Catalans be a rivalry? Why can't it be a box office event? If the answer to that question is "away fans", that's a problem. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think that comes down to how much of a role you think the crowd plays as part of the "impression" this sport gives vs the many other elements. The last Wigan v Saints game had zero atmosphere from the stands, but will be remembered for the occasion, the intensity and the drama that all played out on the field. 

For me, that's where the discussion about the "product" is important. Would I take someone to a run-of-the-mill Wigan v Catalans game? Probably not, but not because there wouldn't be much of an atmosphere from the stands. I wouldn't take them because I think the  game would lack the sort of on-field intensity that I think would attract a new fan - but the same would apply to a "run-of-the-mill" Wigan v Saints game, albeit to a slightly lesser degree. 

The short-termist "away fans" thinking that is used as the justification for making Wigan and St Helens play each other four-six times per season is detracting from the long-term thinking - and about how much damage that thinking is doing to the overall product. That's why I think "away fans" does play a bigger part in club and governance thinking to a degree that is somewhat more than simply "a line item in the budget". 

Would I take someone to a Wigan v Saints game knowing that it was one of potentially six opportunities to see that fixture in a given nine-month period and where "the result doesn't really matter because we'll play them again in seven weeks"? No. Would I be more likely to take someone to a Wigan v St Helens game knowing that that game was the highlight, must-have ticket of the season where everything mattered? Absolutely - and what the sport should be doing is trying to make it's fixtures much more like that.

Yes, you're not going to make it as intense as a local derby against your near neighbours, but why can't Wigan v Catalans be a rivalry? Why can't it be a box office event? If the answer to that question is "away fans", that's a problem. 

I agree with much of it, however it isn't away fans that has driven repeat games, it is the number of games overall. 

And I don't understand a result not mattering because you play them again in a few weeks. That's a bit alien to me. 

[whatmichaelsays]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree with much of it, however it isn't away fans that has driven repeat games, it is the number of games overall. 

And I don't understand a result not mattering because you play them again in a few weeks. That's a bit alien to me. 

I think it does have an influence on that thinking. 

"Yes Robert, we could invest in doing something more innovative and potentially more lucrative, or we could invest in strategies to increase average gates across a regular season schedule, but another match against our local rivals gives us another 12k gate with pretty minimal risk so, you know....." 

Admittedly I'm using "away fans" as a bit of a synonym for "short termism", but I don't think that's completely unfair. Call it an "away fan mindset" if you like - putting short-term, low-hanging fruit at the forefront of thinking, at the expense of longer-term strategy. 

On the second point, for me it comes down to the intensity on the field. We've had some coaches go on record as saying "we're saving ourselves for the end of the season" or that they're looking to "peak at the right time". And maybe it's just me (and it is entirely subjective), but the intensity of the games seems to massively tail off at various points of the season.

With fewer games, you make the 2pts on offer much more valuable and, at the same time, you also make the local bragging rights worth that little bit more. 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think it does have an influence on that thinking. 

"Yes Robert, we could invest in doing something more innovative and potentially more lucrative, or we could invest in strategies to increase average gates across a regular season schedule, but another match against our local rivals gives us another 12k gate with pretty minimal risk so, you know....." 

Admittedly I'm using "away fans" as a bit of a synonym for "short termism", but I don't think that's completely unfair. Call it an "away fan mindset" if you like - putting short-term, low-hanging fruit at the forefront of thinking, at the expense of longer-term strategy. 

On the second point, for me it comes down to the intensity on the field. We've had some coaches go on record as saying "we're saving ourselves for the end of the season" or that they're looking to "peak at the right time". And maybe it's just me (and it is entirely subjective), but the intensity of the games seems to massively tail off at various points of the season.

With fewer games, you make the 2pts on offer much more valuable and, at the same time, you also make the local bragging rights worth that little bit more. 

I agree with the point about short-termism and the issues around that, I think it is however unfair to use 'away fans' as a representation of that. But I understand where you are coming from. 

I sort of agree with the 2nd point too, but I do think this is also an outcome of the format - a playoff system which maybe has the wrong number of teams in versus the strength of the comp, and a season which finishes at the wrong time of the year for a summer comp. I think a season with 27 games can be fine, we maybe don't have the overall balance of the setup right, maybe tweaks.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

At lower levels I understand.  Even 300 away fans at £12 over a championship season is 46 grand a year.  That's 2 or 3 part time players but at full time level,  the onus is on you with rivalries should be a luxury.  It is what makes Warrington so impressive. 

Its not though, you are talking 1 or 2 home games a season. Even by your figures its £7200 for 2 home games.

[Tonka]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

"Oh so you once watched a union game did you? Well, have you said sorry for the government of entirely different country removing the property of the rugby league there in the 1930s? And, I'm sorry, but being born a decade after rugby union went open is no excuse for not watching my slide show on why shamateurism is wrong."

Ha!  Terrible isn't it?

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

5 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

I dont understand it, why is it such a big factor? Shouldn’t clubs be focusing on growing their own fan base? Do Toulouse and Catalans rely on away fans?

Makes the atmosphere exciting with away fans