This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce

[idrewthehaggis]

As the agenda is being written by the "winners" of the SL, those questions are back to front.

As it stands, entrenchment looks at who to exclude. WHen actually it is who we should include and to plan on how to do that.

I am sure certain Big Clubs would love a league of Six/Eight. No relegation. Money ring fenced.

The better way would be look at each club and think what would need to do to improve and how it could be paid off and done.

Edited June 6, 2022 by idrewthehaggis

[Jughead]

14 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

As the agenda is being written by the "winners" of the SL, those questions are back to front.

As it stands, entrenchment looks at who to exclude. WHen actually it is who we should include and to plan on how to do that.

I am sure certain Big Clubs would love a league of Six/Eight. No relegation. Money ring fenced.

The better way would be look at each club and think what would need to do to improve and how it could be paid off and done.

This belief that a handful of clubs want to play each other for eternity is such a strange hill for people to die on when, for many of those clubs, the evidence is to the contrary. 

[idrewthehaggis]

But the evidence I may contend M'lord , there is about fiscal entrapment (see 10 x 10) about capture of talent (unfair licencing of academics), a narrow rather than wider list of opponents (loop fixtures).

All in time point to a entrenched elite of a few. 

Only if a sport was based on centralized big cities,equally distributed around a territory.  But that isn't us as a Game. 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

You just pick up a club and put it where you want.

I rather think this is how it works. You offer a franchise for sale as a package. Someone then buys it if they can see  a case.  You just pick up a club and sell the franchise to someone who want it.  You don't put it where you want it, but where a buyer wants it. 

Yes, even in the NFL you have to ask permission from the NFL and the teams to move your franchise. I assume its the same in the NHL, MLB and the NBA

Edited June 6, 2022 by RP London

[JohnM]

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

It´s a mixture of both. NFL wanted a franchise in LA so they allowed owners to move it. We aren´t going to be selling franchises to scunthorpe because an owner wants it there. 

You would if there was a strong case from someone who wanted to buy (and could afford, and met the Ts and C's and paid the bond etc)  the Scunthorpe SL franchise.

[idrewthehaggis]

3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Who knows what the plans are?

Maybe they are thinking about an ‘Ireland Shamrocks’ side that would play around the island of Ireland - Dublin, Belfast, Limerick, Cork, Galway etc. In Hetherington’s words, it’s a blank piece of paper.

Hibernian Gaeltrotters?

More chance a NBA side in Ireland.

I am sure Hetherington clutches a blank piece of paper on a daily regular basis. 

[Man of Kent]

49 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Hibernian Gaeltrotters?

More chance a NBA side in Ireland.

I am sure Hetherington clutches a blank piece of paper on a daily regular basis. 

Talk of Dublin and Edinburgh sounds dreamy but I’ve no doubt that ‘reimagining’ rugby league means IMG will look beyond Northern England. 

I’m sure most of us would love to see Super League played in every nation of the British Isles (as well as France) with the positive implications that would have for growth, player development and the international game. If the money was there (massive if), why not?

Edited June 6, 2022 by Man of Kent

[RP London]

10 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

But nowhere to play to generate rev.  Meanwhile Glentoran building that 10k sized ground.  Just avoid games there in July.

and immediately its a protestant sport.. 

If we were to go into Belfast we would have to be very careful to somehow cross the divide. 

[RP London]

11 hours ago, JohnM said:

You would if there was a strong case from someone who wanted to buy (and could afford, and met the Ts and C's and paid the bond etc)  the Scunthorpe SL franchise.

True, however, this is where the franchising model is quite important and how it is structured/what it costs to enter is important. Set the bar low and you get Scunthorpe but set the bar correctly and you get people having to think about ROI and therefore you will end up more with the league and places that you would like. 

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, RP London said:

and immediately its a protestant sport.. 

If we were to go into Belfast we would have to be very careful to somehow cross the divide. 

This is a massive digression but as a (very) part time checker of Glentoran scores, I would have to say that they are a Protestant majority club by reason of geography rather than the Linfield approach of being Protestant because Catholics smell of wee.

But, yes, that geography does massively matter.

Belfast Giants is the model to follow but as an outdoor sport with a bit of history, it's not immediately obvious how we could follow their approach.

I only threw Belfast around earlier because, frankly, it gets a bit dull hearing that Dublin is on the radar again when that city is already saturated with sport. 

[RP London]

14 hours ago, paul hicks said:

the problem with Belfast is you have to half the potential audience dependant on were you situate the club .  having recently returned from a family wedding over there its still a patchwork of divided areas .

I was in an hotel just off the sandy row and could net even get over a bridge to Grosvenor road owning to police road blocks that are put in place for the full day  every time one side or the other decides to have a parade as they quaintly call them. was even informed by relative's it would not be safe to go into the city centre on the day of the parade not that it stopped me from going shopping in the fewer than normally open shops.

Belfast for all its bluster is run down and socially deprived and in comparison there's far more money floating around in Dublin. 

While i agree with some of what you are saying and every city has its run down areas. I have family over there and go quite a lot and it is getting heavy amounts of investment, the city centre is growing and the business that are in there are putting money into the area. The Titanic quarter is growing and the City is rising out of the ashes of a long struggle. In this regard I think it would be a great city to be in, its very similar to many Northern Towns and is on the rise. 

That said putting a team in would be a minefield, you do not want to be a sectarian sport and there are a lot of sports already in the city. 

Ulster is a big team in RU circles and is doing well. They cross the divide to an extent though are in protestant area.

Northern Irish Football is heavily protestant with only the odd Catholic club like Cliftonville but if you want to know how to saturate an area with too many clubs Belfast is it... 

Gaelic also has a big, catholic, presence in the city

Cricket has a home in Belfast with Stormont being a main venue for the international team and belfast having a number of clubs. 

The Ice Hockey crosses a divide and while people will say its "for the kids" the average attendance is around the 4,500 so its not bad going. 

The biggest issue facing RL going into somewhere like Belfast is the plethora of "alternatives"... as a city its fantastic and I love it but I cant see RL getting a grip there without a mammoth amount of work, and money.

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

This is a massive digression but as a (very) part time checker of Glentoran scores, I would have to say that they are a Protestant majority club by reason of geography rather than the Linfield approach of being Protestant because Catholics smell of wee.

But, yes, that geography does massively matter.

Belfast Giants is the model to follow but as an outdoor sport with a bit of history, it's not immediately obvious how we could follow their approach.

I only threw Belfast around earlier because, frankly, it gets a bit dull hearing that Dublin is on the radar again when that city is already saturated with sport. 

agree in part.. my brother in law and nephew are huge Cliftonville fans and football is basically a protestant sport with a couple of catholic clubs like Cliftonville. If you were to put an RL team in the venue will be important on these sorts of levels sadly.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

agree in part.. my brother in law and nephew are huge Cliftonville fans and football is basically a protestant sport with a couple of catholic clubs like Cliftonville. If you were to put an RL team in the venue will be important on these sorts of levels sadly.

Very aware. And the Irish FA are a massive reason for that, and why Derry City play in the ROI with everyone's blessing. There are varying levels of trying to address that and I would say that, from what I've seen, Glentoran are doing a bit more than some others and (I believe) have had Catholics play for them without issue - again, unlike others.

Cliftonville play at Solitude though. And, had I known that when picking my team out of the Rothmans, they would have been my choice.

[RP London]

13 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Very aware. And the Irish FA are a massive reason for that, and why Derry City play in the ROI with everyone's blessing. There are varying levels of trying to address that and I would say that, from what I've seen, Glentoran are doing a bit more than some others and (I believe) have had Catholics play for them without issue - again, unlike others.

Cliftonville play at Solitude though. And, had I known that when picking my team out of the Rothmans, they would have been my choice.

My Son (Ginger hair, catholic, half irish) has been taken to a game.... I (blonde hair, quite English, protestant) have not.... it could be that he just doesn't like me enough but I think its prejudice 

[idrewthehaggis]

Good grief.

I hope IMG are not blinded by the regular SL fanboys to consider an Irish SL bid. 

You might advise a long term plan to build the game upwards and aim for a National Conference Premier standard and cohesion, with matching facilities, staff and so on. And organize a credible financing of it. And then just keep to it. 

But it's another Gateshead, PSG, Toronto, et al.  It will not work.

Promotion/Relegation

As a Red, P/R always haunts you. Indeed all bar Wigan/ Saints have this at the back of their minds, as all it takes is one bad season.

The real problem is relegation for most SL clubs does and can mean severe difficulties for that club. Look at Widnes, Bradford, Oldham. Workington have never recovered. Whilst London regained their place, currently they seem on their way to the third tier.

Until we bridge the gap in central funding and revenue creation from SL to the Championship, this fate hangs over SL clubs. And makes it so much harder for promoted clubs to compete in the SL.

So I hope the RFL, clubs/players/fans/investors and IMG consider how the money is split and more importantly increased.

If not then you might as accept defeat.

My thoughts would be a recognized division between full professional semi professional and amatuer.

SL needs to be at least 12 clubs.

The Tier 2 needs to be at least 8 clubs. Everyone immediately able to be a SL club.

How many tier 2/3 can be that. I would say now it is just Fev and Leigh.

Maybe Newcastle, London, Widnes, Halifax, York, Sheffield, Bradford. All need is different ways support over support, organization, revenue production,ground enhancement, etc.

I would prefer the southern heartland of France be worked on. There is the theoretical potential for at the very very most six professional clubs in France.

But whether it is London or Lyon. We need patience, dedication, consistency, and determination to give a credible system of P/R.

 

 

 

 

[Saint Toppy]

17 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

 

Until we bridge the gap in central funding and revenue creation from SL to the Championship, this fate hangs over SL clubs. And makes it so much harder for promoted clubs to compete in the SL.

So I hope the RFL, clubs/players/fans/investors and IMG consider how the money is split and more importantly increased.

 

Its easy to just say 'split the money' but realistically you'll just destroy around half the current SL clubs in the feint hope that it will help the odd promoted club survive for longer. There's probably only around 7 current SL clubs who could continue as they are with a reduced funding (Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Catalans, Warrington, Huddersfield & Hull). The rest would hit the skids pretty quickly.

The ONLY way to increase funding for Championship clubs is to increase the overall pot size. Given the RFL only managed to achieve a reduced TV deal last time out the chances of increasing the pot are slim to none currently.  

[Oxford]

5 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Its easy to just say 'split the money' but realistically you'll just destroy around half the current SL clubs in the feint hope that it will help the odd promoted club survive for longer. There's probably only around 7 current SL clubs who could continue as they are with a reduced funding (Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Catalans, Warrington, Huddersfield & Hull). The rest would hit the skids pretty quickly.

The ONLY way to increase funding for Championship clubs is to increase the overall pot size. Given the RFL only managed to achieve a reduced TV deal last time out the chances of increasing the pot are slim to none currently.  

This has been the argument for as long as I can remember, and it's one based on a sport that's atrophied and the top end are happy for it to continue that way as it guarantees success which is all their economic strategy is built upon that and an investor.

[Oxford]

There is also a myth that building from the ground up is the only way to achieve long term development of the game. There is very little evidence that this is anything but flimsy at best. Although the evidence available can be used to show this is the case there is just as much to show it isn't.

It's just as intriguing that the very thing that is often portrayed as RL's weakness the limited geographical footprint of the top professional competition is often used as it's greatest strength..

 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

 

The real problem is relegation for most SL clubs does and can mean severe difficulties for that club. Look at Widnes, Bradford, Oldham. Workington have never recovered. Whilst London regained their place, currently they seem on their way to the third tier.

 

This is going to sound harsh, but was it relegation that put these clubs in difficulties, or were they on their ###### well before that? The likes of Oldham, Workington, add London, Halifax etc. to that list were not shattered because of relegation imho, they were shattered because they weren't working well as clubs in advance of being demoted. Bradford famously blew themselves up in advance of relegation.

Where clubs have been strong enough, they have found it possible job to get back into SL and do a good job. 

There is a reason Oldham are where they are and Castleford are where they are for example. Cas were a stronger club.

 

[RP London]

12 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Well there would be no other stadium. You dont really have another suitable venue. 

and that is a major issue.. as mentioned if you want to try and cross the divide you're going to have to be very careful and it would need to be done with major consultation of how you can do that.. I also said it would need money, it may be you need to build something to be able to make it work properly. IMHO any idea of just dropping it in somewhere and that not having some form of repercussions is not going to happen. It is whether you are happy to accept those repercussions or not that will determine what you do, as you also have Casement park (Gaelic) or Ravenhill (union) which would be great but have their own "issues". 

If you can get Belfast right it would be a great place for a team but if you got it wrong then you are pretty much screwing it up for good, they have very long memories there.

[The Blues Ox]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is going to sound harsh, but was it relegation that put these clubs in difficulties, or were they on their ###### well before that? The likes of Oldham, Workington, add London, Halifax etc. to that list were not shattered because of relegation imho, they were shattered because they weren't working well as clubs in advance of being demoted. Bradford famously blew themselves up in advance of relegation.

Where clubs have been strong enough, they have found it possible job to get back into SL and do a good job. 

There is a reason Oldham are where they are and Castleford are where they are for example. Cas were a stronger club.

 

I agree with a lot of that but in the case of Halifax, yes we have struggled with financial problems through our history but we got relegated on the back of 1 bad season in SL, we did not get any parachute payment on our relegation which meant pretty much a removal of funding to which we struggled for a while. We then rebuilt to the point of winning the competition in 2010 but obviously at that point there were no promotion and relegation and ourselves, Fev, and Sheffield were denied any access to SL. What is to say that if any of those teams had gone up they would not be competitive in SL?

A point I keep making is that its easy for SL clubs to comment from their ivory tower but if you removed their funding and gave it to any number of championship clubs it would just be a straight swap. Now Im not saying that is a good thing and I do not blame SL clubs for looking after themelves but it seems to me that them going out of their way to protect themselves is just leading to a race to the bottom for our sport.

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

This has been the argument for as long as I can remember, and it's one based on a sport that's atrophied and the top end are happy for it to continue that way as it guarantees success which is all their economic strategy is built upon that and an investor.

But you don't disagree then of the consequences of splitting the money as things stand ? That it would likely cripple around 5 current SL clubs just to give a little bit more help to a Leigh or Fev who themselves would still struggle, and of they didn't go back down the 1st year would probably go down the next anyway.

[sweaty craiq]

57 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you don't disagree then of the consequences of splitting the money as things stand ? That it would likely cripple around 5 current SL clubs just to give a little bit more help to a Leigh or Fev who themselves would still struggle, and of they didn't go back down the 1st year would probably go down the next anyway.

The rope around our or Fevs neck after promotion is the player availability, the way around it is to allow a greater non fed presence in y1 and y2 (reduced from Y1) The promoted club has to pay more for players, doesnt have the Academies to fall back on immediately or will get the benefit of club trained - so increase the cap by £300k for 2 years also

[Big Picture]

20 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

Most on here struggle with the word 'buy'. The RFL should have the deal tied up with Broadcasters for x years and specify the terms of the Franchise including the cost of said Franchise. Franchises should be continually audited and teams sent in to failing ones - Franchises could be bought and sold on the open market, and new franchises offered when demand dictates.

A brief package would be a set number of years before review, stadium size and facilities, min squad spend, Junior/academy structures and standards etc. £5m per franchise seems about right subject to a £2m TV deal per club and a £2m pa min salary spend. The £60-70m raised would provide £2-5m returns pa which would pay for a decent and continual marketing drive. If club A wants to leave at review time then a club joining pays the fee plus interest, with club A getting back 50% of the original fee paid

I'm glad you recognize that in the case of franchised league being set up every owner would have to pay the same franchise fee so as to have a level playing field.  I see a couple of problems with your example though.

First (and this a serious question), how many of the traditional clubs would be both willing and able to pay the 5 million £ fee you have in mind?

Second, 5 million £ is far too low for a major pro league.  It's a minor league level franchise fee, not a major league level fee.

The cheapest expansion franchise fee for an established major league is the 325 million US$ MLS charges, and the cost of a major league franchise goes from there up to the 5.3 billion US$ (4.25 billion £) which Todd Boehly is paying to take over Chelsea.

Six years ago next month Forbes valued the top 20 minor league baseball teams at an average of 37.5 million US$ (29.837 million £) and valued the Sacramento River Cats at 49 million U$ (38.987 million £).  That average was almost 35% higher than three years earlier, so the values are bound to be higher now.   Your suggestion of 5 million £ might be too rich for any of the traditional clubs, but it's definitely a minor league fee and not a major league fee.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Big Picture

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you don't disagree then of the consequences of splitting the money as things stand ? That it would likely cripple around 5 current SL clubs just to give a little bit more help to a Leigh or Fev who themselves would still struggle, and of they didn't go back down the 1st year would probably go down the next anyway.

In a way I do disagree but not with the fact that there's not enough money to go round, it's not like politics or government where there's plenty to everything required but no one wants to. But the top clubs have not worked together in terms of the RFL and SL structures. And the only times they've insisted something is for the good of the game as a whole it turned out to be very good for very few.

There are plenty of way we could balance the game better one would be everyone has an academie, another might be a draft system, we could put more money into the bottom clubs of SL than the top and get away from the excuse that it's some sort of inate weakness that determines where they end up in SL. We could insist on larger catchment areas for lower clubs and wealthier clubs disallowed from poaching in those areas. These ideas probably have problems and issues that would mean a lot of work and some would have to give up certain things.

That means they'll never happen.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Oxford