Where has the Fun gone?

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

what do they do?

 

Provide a nice seated area behind the stand , good food ( the cheesy chips are a favourite of many but not me ) quite often Kevin , their chairman will be serving the beer , friendly staff , kids playing tic and pass on the grass , they do have a stage ( HGV trailer ) but don't recall them having any bands on ( maybe when it's the HW derby ) 

Just a general friendly feeling , the the game starts and it all gets vicious

[Gerrumonside ref]

On 19/06/2022 at 11:17, GUBRATS said:

That's because the actual sport is rubbish 

For a rubbish sport they do seem to make an enormously huge amount of money every year while we are skint.

 

[Chris22]

5 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Having worked from home for over two years as a result of the pandemic, I know my own personal life has changed immeasurably.

I've become a virtual recluse. My social life has dwindled away to nothing. All my local ''haunts'' are on the verge of bankruptcy, experiencing only modest partial recovery towards their pre-pandemic flourish.

My physical strength has atrophied, more rapidly than the normal ageing process would have brought on, so it's not surprising that my inner candle flame, may have dimmed.

I'm sure there are many people out there with similar experiences. I am clinging to the belief/hope that things will improve in time.

I'm sorry to hear about that, and can relate. I too have lost a lot of social contact due to working primarily at home and it's tough.

I get that for many it's great but not for all. Makes me appreciate things like going to the game even more. And appreciate that I'm lucky to be able to afford it still.

All the best!

[Chris22]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Margin metre is effectively part of football in their xG star and their fans haven't hounded it out of the game. It is also a principle used in cricket with win likelihoods etc. It probably needed tweaking and a better presenter than Clarke, but it was a well thought out initiative. 

The problem with the margin meter was that Sky presented it as a prediction for the match ahead, rather than a snapshot of the current match status.

If we presented it as the latter, then it would have been helpful to compare what the stats suggested the score should be, to the actual score. Would show whether a team had took advantage of their dominance, for example.

[Oxford]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

Apologies if I'm wrong, but I believe I am a fair bit younger than you Oxford, and I have a 6yr old who keeps me even younger even if my body is not quite so young! 

But one thing that is quite big in society at the moment is experiences - a lot of family fun experiences have emerged and appear to be doing really well. We're talking family festivals, drive thru cinemas, adventure golf, seasonal events (Halloween etc), pubs now are popping up offering beer pong, bowling, crazy golf in them, Bongo Bingo nights are huge, and so on.

I don't think the fun has left us, I think people are looking to have fun, they are just finding it elsewhere. People are out there spending money doing these things. I worry we aren't keeping up with the times. 

I think what you said is true Dave but I don't believe it negates what I posted.

By the fun has left us I was refering to TGG fans and their relationship with RL. Though covid and other events have had telling and possibly long term effects they wouldn't explain everything entirely.

I also think people are almost desperate for fun which is not a criticism nor is it a bad thing in itself.

 

 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

The problem with the margin meter was that Sky presented it as a prediction for the match ahead, rather than a snapshot of the current match status.

If we presented it as the latter, then it would have been helpful to compare what the stats suggested the score should be, to the actual score. Would show whether a team had took advantage of their dominance, for example.

Yep, Clarke did try and explain it like that, but tbh when you had some of the people alongside him just making jokes and looking for laughs it completely undermined it and stopped it ever becoming a thing. 

I think it would be a useful thing to be included as part of Wells' analysis at half time and full, instead of just showing us completions and metres made for example.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I think what you said is true Dave but I don't believe it negates what I posted.

By the fun has left us I was refering to TGG fans and their relationship with RL. Though covid and other events have had telling and possibly long term effects they wouldn't explain everything entirely.

I also think people are almost desperate for fun which is not a criticism nor is it a bad thing in itself.

 

 

That makes sense, and I agree. 

It was part of my motivation behind my original post. The crowd seemed pretty miserable. 

[Oxford]

5 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I have to agree with you about the fun going out of us. Whether that's permanent or temporary, we'll have to wait and see.

Having worked from home for over two years as a result of the pandemic, I know my own personal life has changed immeasurably.

I've become a virtual recluse. My social life has dwindled away to nothing. All my local ''haunts'' are on the verge of bankruptcy, experiencing only modest partial recovery towards their pre-pandemic flourish.

My physical strength has atrophied, more rapidly than the normal ageing process would have brought on, so it's not surprising that my inner candle flame, may have dimmed.

I'm sure there are many people out there with similar experiences. I am clinging to the belief/hope that things will improve in time. I just think the recovery may take longer than we first thought and when it does, I'm sure the popularity of RL will return to previous levels and grow beyond.

To wind up, I just want to make a comment about the value of true supporters in our attempts to broaden the games appeal. As a former salesman, I know that one of the highest potential lead sources was past customer recommendations. A word of mouth recommendation almost always resulted in a sale (a very high conversion rate) and was worth thousands of pounds spent on advertising.

I dread to think what effect the ''average'' RL fans comments about the game, have on potential newcomers who may overhear them as they whine, ##### and moan to each other in the pub.

To me, RL is one of the bright lights at the end of the tunnel, indicating the way to a happier future. 

 

My experience is different in two ways: I was a recluse well before Covid and some who knew me said I'd been rehearsing for the pandemic for years. Other parts of my life have made me acutely aware how these things have affected wider society. The number of chlidren in care being one example.

RL, as you say is like the light at the end of the tunnel and as fans we are far too negative about it, and even more so since Covid.

The greatest supporters of this sport are its worst critics and even worse proponents and if they were an advertising agency and you were the RLF/SL you wouldn't give them the time of day.

 

 

[Oxford]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That makes sense, and I agree. 

It was part of my motivation behind my original post. The crowd seemed pretty miserable. 

I agree and the ones having a good time stuck out like a sore opposable digit!

[Oxford]

What we all ignore in this is that the average concentration span of a Human is about 8.25 seconds and for a goldfish it's about 9 seconds so maybe IMG could sell RL to them.

 

[gingerjon]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

Funnily enough, RL and Sky has had some quite nice touches over the year that are now part of other sports and embraced well. 

Margin metre is effectively part of football in their xG star and their fans haven't hounded it out of the game. It is also a principle used in cricket with win likelihoods etc. It probably needed tweaking and a better presenter than Clarke, but it was a well thought out initiative. 

We used to have graphics that showed where teams scored their tries - it wasn't perfect, and maybe heat maps would have been better, but again, gone, when we see graphics like this in other sports now. 

We also used to have a lot of 'futuristic' graphics on the screen, which looks dated now, but more sports are filling their screen with garish graphics as ours has been stripped back and maybe looks done on the cheap. 

I would go as far as to say we were ahead of our time, we were almost the testing ground for many things (as well as nicknames, dancers, music after scores etc) in the UK, and others have run with them far better than we have and we now look like a cheap version. 

Margin Meter was a good(ish) idea that was really poorly presented.

The comparison with cricket is interesting because both Sky and the BBC now actively look out the WinViz (or whatever version they are using) and the commentators then say whether they agree with it or not *and explain why*. Some are better at it than others but the consistent thing is that if it changes wildly then, usually, you'll hear them refer to which players or passage of play it was that changed the game.

If Clarke had been allowed to say, without the chuckles team around him guffawing, that X should be ahead by 14 based on possession and territory but Y are ahead by 6 and that's because of Y's defence on the wing and speed in counter attacking when receiving the (etc) ... then it would have been a useful addition.

It's a bit like when they got Cumming in to explain the decisions and it just turned into yet more awful banter and we stopped actually hearing about the decisions in any useful way.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

Stuff outside/inside ground a must for kids. If my kids know there are things like bouncy castles and face painting at games it is a much easier sell to them 

Doesn't have to be complicated either..

The old Bull- mania stuff (without the Bull debt) would be good again....also the Craven street style booze and food choices

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly, see Huddersfield.

Not being a football fan, and I dont if I am talking a load of bolux, but was the Giants 'succesful period'in SL coincidental with Huddersfield Towns time when they were doing well?

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, fighting irish said:

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Come on Harry, if the only way we can increase crowds is by winning the GF or Challenge Cup, the game is doomed. We might as well shut up shop now and go home, because only one(or two) teams a year can grow and then (if they don't win again next year) shrink back down to subsistence levels. God help us Harry, is that the best you've got?

Look back at the Bullmania and the very good attendance period Irish and tell me it didn't begin with the upsurge in fortunes of the team and then ebbed away when they were not as successful, proove me wrong and I will conceed, as yes it's the best I've got, over to you.

[fighting irish]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Look back at the Bullmania and the very good attendance period Irish and tell me it didn't begin with the upsurge in fortunes of the team and then ebbed away when they were not as successful, proove me wrong and I will conceed, as yes it's the best I've got, over to you.

I think Dave T made a good case about Bullmania Harry, I don't want to go over that.

My belief is that we need to introducing more children to the pure joy of playing RL football in order to create lifelong fans.

Gubrats said he didn't think that it translated to higher spectator numbers well I disagree, wholeheartedly. He's basing his opinion on a very short term view and a very small scale experiment.

I say this, if the game had not chosen to rush to organising clubs into inward looking leagues and instead, had looked out to the wider world, for playing opposition, then the game would have spread across the country at least as fast RaRa.

I'm well aware of course of their prejudices which inhibited the spread of the game in here and in France but we survived never the less.

What I say to Gubrats is, just imagine we had been spreading the game just as Newcastle are doing, but for the last 120 odd years! Do you think we'd have bigger crowds then? Super League clubs right across the country? A more competitive International scene? Of course we would.

So that's my solution, its not a short term fix, but we should be doing it, and we should have been doing it all along.

Even now the envious refuse to acknowledge the success of the N.E. of pursuing a planned development programme.

There's precious little acknowledgement of Bob Brown at Hemel, who proved it can be done (anywhere) with the right mentality, and approach.

So that's my best advice Harry.  

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

Coffee and a cake/muffin would have set me back £8 or £9 and I'd happily have spent that and sat in the ground instead of a supermarket. 

So based on that assumption of paying more Dave, if clubs decide to give this pre, interval and post game entertainment experience a good dose of looking at not just putting in a DJ a turntable and some local girls with pom poms but instead some profile entertainers the public can identify with, should this be done by increasing the admission price or does the club take the hit and hope at least it levels out and not cost anything to begin with, and hopefully the attraction in gaining a number of newbies would outweigh those they could lose who's only interest is what happening on the field.

 

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Non club owned grounds do

Careful Tommy, you are expelling a couple of the top 5 clubs.

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Damien said:

It's not a one size fits all approach though. Clubs have to find their own angle on what works for them.

Who decides at Wigan Damien, The Warriors or the Stadium owners?

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

So based on that assumption of paying more Dave, if clubs decide to give this pre, interval and post game entertainment experience a good dose of looking at not just putting in a DJ a turntable and some local girls with pom poms but instead some profile entertainers the public can identify with, should this be done by increasing the admission price or does the club take the hit and hope at least it levels out and not cost anything to begin with, and hopefully the attraction in gaining a number of newbies would outweigh those they could lose who's only interest is what happening on the field.

 

All of the above. 

These things are not short term quick fixes. 

Let's see the above initiatives as improving the product, that brings added value to it. 

This can be seen as a pure product/marketing investment that could drive pure crowd numbers, or could lessen the impact of drops for poor performances, but either way that should be seen as higher crowds. 

There could be a case for your product having a higher value and people prepared to pay more for the experience. 

We then have ancillary income streams - bigger more engaged crowds should be translated into increased sponsorship, it should be converted into sales of merchandise, food and drinks etc. 

It's all intertwined and that's why we can't just look at a £20k investment on a match needing to sell an additional 1k tickets to wash its face.

The other point I would add is that many things we talk about are not huge costs - we're not talking about hiring Liam Gallagher, mascots, face painters, music, good and drink etc are all part of the games, but they are sporadic and/or of poor quality. 

This is about putting on the very best show we can every time, too many of our events are done on the cheap. 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who decides at Wigan Damien, The Warriors or the Stadium owners?

Haven't Wigan setup fan parks outside the ground? Not sure how covid affected it, but recall seeing something... 

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Damien said:

Well that's great, an audience already that Leigh can work with and add to. Some food stalls outside, some entertainment, some stuff for kids, maybe a marquee on the pitch sometimes. Or of course you could just say we can't do that.

Leigh East has the the same owners as Leigh Centurions, Leigh Sporting Village, and the pitches are 4G, can't go driving marquee pegs in those.

[Oxford]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Look back at the Bullmania and the very good attendance period Irish and tell me it didn't begin with the upsurge in fortunes of the team and then ebbed away when they were not as successful, proove me wrong and I will conceed, as yes it's the best I've got, over to you.

It also came with a period of optimism within the game as a whole but as with far too many traditional anchorage parts of our lives people are becoming more and more detatched and alienated. 

You're right though Harry, the success breeds good attendences and it quickly disappears soon afterwards.

We've touched upon most things here but less things to win means less chance to win them. Greater disparity between levels of the game means less hope and optimism. One dominant team is great for their fans and not so good for everyone else. Then there's the level of frustration at the way the game is run even when good things are put in place.

Chasing simple answers to complex issues is fine but almost never results in long term solutions.

Part of the problem of course is that we all know the game is sooo goood that we imagine it's a simple matter to get it to the people lined up to watch it.

For decades and decades the Beeb was the propaganda arm of yawn and my God did they sell it well and during those same decades they managed to treat RL very differently and sold that image equally as thoroughly. And among the reasons why Aunty is better for RL now is because ru have essentially left them behind.

In other words there are quite a few distinct hills to climb for RL to take its place at the table but one is bringing back hope, opportunity, optimism and fun.

And don't forget the goldfish!

 

[Harry Stottle]

37 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I think Dave T made a good case about Bullmania Harry, I don't want to go over that.

My belief is that we need to introducing more children to the pure joy of playing RL football in order to create lifelong fans.

Gubrats said he didn't think that it translated to higher spectator numbers well I disagree, wholeheartedly. He's basing his opinion on a very short term view and a very small scale experiment.

I say this, if the game had not chosen to rush to organising clubs into inward looking leagues and instead, had looked out to the wider world, for playing opposition, then the game would have spread across the country at least as fast RaRa.

I'm well aware of course of their prejudices which inhibited the spread of the game in here and in France but we survived never the less.

What I say to Gubrats is, just imagine we had been spreading the game just as Newcastle are doing, but for the last 120 odd years! Do you think we'd have bigger crowds then? Super League clubs right across the country? A more competitive International scene? Of course we would.

So that's my solution, its not a short term fix, but we should be doing it, and we should have been doing it all along.

Even now the envious refuse to acknowledge the success of the N.E. of pursuing a planned development programme.

There's precious little acknowledgement of Bob Brown at Hemel, who proved it can be done (anywhere) with the right mentality, and approach.

So that's my best advice Harry.  

Yep good point on Newcastle, but they are fortunate enough as are London to be able to run an academy, but that is by the way.

If you want to apportion any blame whatsoever on the lack of expansion look no further than the Bill Fallowfield era, popular and thriving game, big crowds, not many other distractions asxare abound today, just right for taking into other area's but he sat on his laurels and was happy with what he had, maybe expansion would have given him some work to do.

And..... thanks for your answer, but you did not answer the question I posed.

[Damien]

38 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who decides at Wigan Damien, The Warriors or the Stadium owners?

Wigan had the same issues as Leigh and so looked at alternative options like Robin Park. That was the point.

[Harry Stottle]

23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is about putting on the very best show we can every time, too many of our events are done on the cheap. 

When would you expect the novelty of "the long day" to become the norm? most people like to get dressed up and go out for a meal but ration it to not very frequently as it is not the occasion any more. My missus and I love to go on cruises, get ready to go for the evening meal in plush and nice surroundings, meet new friends etc but after a couple of weeks I crave the fact that when I get home I can loss about have my tea and don't have to be bothered with all the rigmarole, my point is and I can see the value in trying to attract newbies to the stadium, I do not think your "fun element" could be done each and every home game.