Newcastle thunder

[Jughead]

11 minutes ago, Tubby said:

Hopefully it isn't the end of anything, but where do they stand if they have a number of full time contracts that they can't get out of?  It has been suggested some players have signed relatively long FT contracts.

I’ve had a Google of about ten of their players. Unless I’m missing contract extensions this year, the majority of players signed one year deals. I can see that Shorrocks, Woods and Foster have deals for 2023 and 2024. 

 

[Blind side johnny]

31 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I would strongly suspect there has been a realisation that you can have 'full time' players but if the rest of the set-up isn't professional enough then it's not going to deliver what you want.

It's not a great situation for them to be in but no indication that it's the end of anything.

Is Dennis Betts still involved?

I seem to recall that he had plenty to say about the difference between full time and part time being much more than how the players were employed. I wonder what he will have to say now?

Edited August 17, 2022 by Blind side johnny

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, Derwent said:

I was at a function in Newcastle a few weeks ago on the same table as Semore Kurdi. I asked him what his plans were for Thunder and he just shrugged and said "they serve a purpose in absorbing some of the stadium overheads". On the subject of SL he said if a place were offered as part of a restructure/licensing arrangement then he would take it, but that he was not prepared to spend the sums that other Championship clubs are to get there by competitive promotion. In his view the sum required to build a team to win the Championship isn't worth it, SL income does not offer a decent risk/reward ratio to make it a viable investment in his opinion.

He did also say that he was cutting the Falcons playing budget by 20% for the next couple of years as well given the 3 year moratorium on P&R in RU.

His most telling comment was "with KP stadium and the hospitality company I would have a very good business if it wasn't for the 2 rugby teams !".

Well, I think this tells us all we need to know. Sounds like he thought they could make a bid for SL on cheap (relatively) and has been derailed by Leigh and Fev being bolder than he expected. 

Frankly, I also think that if his response to union having a 3 year moratorium on P&R is to cut playing budgets by 20% then he's the last person we should be handing out a SL license to if we go back to that. The point of licensing to is to enable an INCREASE investment, not decrease it!

  

[Angelic Cynic]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

Ouch. That looks like the end of “Super League Grand Final winners by 2030”, then. 

I wonder if Mick Hogan will return to the club? There is a rugby union World Cup,next year,and he may use any lessons learned from the World Cup this year to benefit the other code.

The Brains Trust giving artificial promotion to both Leigh Centurions and Newcastle Thunder don't appear to have improved things on and off the field.

Wigan Reserves may get some players returning... 

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

Well, I think this tells us all we need to know. Sounds like he thought they could make a bid for SL on cheap (relatively) and has been derailed by Leigh and Fev being bolder than he expected. 

Frankly, I also think that if his response to union having a 3 year moratorium on P&R is to cut playing budgets by 20% then he's the last person we should be handing out a SL license to if we go back to that. The point of licensing to is to enable an INCREASE investment, not decrease it!

  

Ultimately, that's always what tends to happen in Licensing and we saw it during our own period at the clubs lower down the table. 

[Ragingbull]

7 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Well, I think this tells us all we need to know. Sounds like he thought they could make a bid for SL on cheap (relatively) and has been derailed by Leigh and Fev being bolder than he expected. 

Frankly, I also think that if his response to union having a 3 year moratorium on P&R is to cut playing budgets by 20% then he's the last person we should be handing out a SL license to if we go back to that. The point of licensing to is to enable an INCREASE investment, not decrease it!

  

Derailed by Fev and Leigh? They are 11th out of 14 teams. Theve been derailed by just about everyone. 

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Frankly, I also think that if his response to union having a 3 year moratorium on P&R is to cut playing budgets by 20% then he's the last person we should be handing out a SL license to if we go back to that. The point of licensing to is to enable an INCREASE investment, not decrease it!

I don't see why cutting playing budgets because of P&R does not mean someone should not get a SL license. One does not predetermine the other. As you say the whole point of licensing is to increase investment by offering security and guarantees and what someone will invest under a license is completely different to what they may be prepared to invest under P&R. That is particularly so when structures are so up in the air.

[LeytherRob]

I think ultimately Newcastle's failure was leaving an very unexperienced and unproven coach to deal with what is a very tricky transition from PT to FT, along with having no depth to the squad whatsoever. They signed some good players and had a decent enough 17 on paper that should have been capable of pushing for 4th/5th but nothing outside of it. I can scarcely recall ever seeing them naming what i'd consider close to their best 17 and it's mostly been kids from Wigan plugging the gaps. 

[Cowboy]

I think this is more of a title change then anything.

Hearing they only train 3 times a week as a 'full time' outfit which isn't any different to most 'part time' Championship clubs,some would be doing 4 sessions a week I'd imagine with captains run.

Don't think their wage bill would be overly high for this season either to be fair.

[Toby Chopra]

13 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Ultimately, that's always what tends to happen in Licensing and we saw it during our own period at the clubs lower down the table. 

I think it was a mixed bag - some clubs clearly tried to scrimp, but others invested in new or improved stadiums or bigger playing budgets. 

If we do go back there, we definitely need minimum spend criteria alongside any cap.  

[Toby Chopra]

9 minutes ago, Ragingbull said:

Derailed by Fev and Leigh? They are 11th out of 14 teams. Theve been derailed by just about everyone. 

yes, fair point!

[LeytherRob]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't see why cutting playing budgets because of P&R does not mean someone should not get a SL license. One does not predetermine the other. As you say the whole point of licensing is to increase investment by offering security and guarantees and what someone will invest under a license is completely different to what they may be prepared to invest under P&R. That is particularly so when structures are so up in the air.

I think you've misunderstood, Toby is referring to the Falcons/Thunder owner slashing the Falcons playing budget by 20% because they have a 3 year safety net from relegation in the RU premiership i.e. a license.

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't see why cutting playing budgets because of P&R does not mean someone should not get a SL license. One does not predetermine the other. As you say the whole point of licensing is to increase investment by offering security and guarantees and what someone will invest under a license is completely different to what they may be prepared to invest under P&R. That is particularly so when structures are so up in the air.

I think playing budgets are a big part of it. What we need in Superleague is more clubs challenging at the top end so the competition has depth and diversity. If he's saying he's going to come in and be happy with shuffling around at the bottom cos they're protected, then it's just not what we need, even if other areas saw some attention. 

I'd hate to be a Falcons fan right now, knowing the team's going to get spanknd every week (except by Wasps) for the next 3 years, cos there's no risk of relegation. 

 

    

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

I think you've misunderstood, Toby is referring to the Falcons/Thunder owner slashing the Falcons playing budget by 20% because they have a 3 year safety net from relegation in the RU premiership i.e. a license.

What is viable in RU is a completely different kettle of fish to RL. That is why some RU clubs are losing many millions a year.

[Chris22]

Newcastle have rebuilt to be a mid to lower table Championship club with crowds comparable to heartland teams in similar positions.

I'd rather have a part time, competitive Newcastle in the Championship, doing great work to increase participation in the North East than them going all out for Super League, failing and going bust again.

Don't think this is the end of the world, as part time teams like Batley show, it's more than possible to compete at this level. Big test is how they react to it.

[Tubby]

42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

A lot of contracts have break clauses so, you would think, those would come into play.

But I'd imagine those clauses are based on promotion/relegation, rather than a change of heart re: full time, but who's to say they didn't have the foresight to include that possibility?

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, Tubby said:

But I'd imagine those clauses are based on promotion/relegation, rather than a change of heart re: full time, but who's to say they didn't have the foresight to include that possibility?

All the clauses come from a standard list at the RFL and the only real break clause is on relegation from SL.

[Jughead]

Reserve game with London is off. 

[gingerjon]

12 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

All the clauses come from a standard list at the RFL and the only real break clause is on relegation from SL.

Thanks. I'll accept I'm likely to be wrong then.

[Ragingbull]

14 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Newcastle have rebuilt to be a mid to lower table Championship club with crowds comparable to heartland teams in similar positions.

I'd rather have a part time, competitive Newcastle in the Championship, doing great work to increase participation in the North East than them going all out for Super League, failing and going bust again.

Don't think this is the end of the world, as part time teams like Batley show, it's more than possible to compete at this level. Big test is how they react to it.

The advantage Barrow have is they are surrounded by a hot bed of RL  and have a team packed with local players, Newcastle sadly wont have that option available

As ive said previously i think they will struggle to get players to commute 100 odd miles 3 times week for part time money given the travel time and the cost of fuel.  Players that work all day, will they want a 4 hour commute on a weeknight just to go training?

Other Champ clubs will be able to offer players less money than Newcastle and still manage to beat them to signings when u factor in travel time and costs. 

I hope im wrong as id love to see the sport take off up there but i sadly cant see how they will be competitive in this league going forward. 

[Toby Chopra]

16 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Newcastle have rebuilt to be a mid to lower table Championship club with crowds comparable to heartland teams in similar positions.

I'd rather have a part time, competitive Newcastle in the Championship, doing great work to increase participation in the North East than them going all out for Super League, failing and going bust again.

Don't think this is the end of the world, as part time teams like Batley show, it's more than possible to compete at this level. Big test is how they react to it.

The problem is without full time players, they have to rely only on those from the NE, and that probably means means relegation back to L1.

Teams like Batley have access to the whole heartland player pool, Newcastle don't. I can't think of a non-heartland team that's been remotely competitive in Championship just relying on local players.     

[Jughead]

4 minutes ago, Ragingbull said:

The advantage Barrow have is they are surrounded by a hot bed of RL  and have a team packed with local players, Newcastle sadly wont have that option available

As ive said previously i think they will struggle to get players to commute 100 odd miles 3 times week for part time money given the travel time and the cost of fuel.  Players that work all day, will they want a 4 hour commute on a weeknight just to go training?

Other Champ clubs will be able to offer players less money than Newcastle and still manage to beat them to signings when u factor in travel time and costs. 

I hope im wrong as id love to see the sport take off up there but i sadly cant see how they will be competitive in this league going forward. 

They did it in fine in 2021 and 2019 and 2018…

[Eddie]

24 minutes ago, Ragingbull said:

The advantage Barrow have is they are surrounded by a hot bed of RL  and have a team packed with local players, Newcastle sadly wont have that option available

As ive said previously i think they will struggle to get players to commute 100 odd miles 3 times week for part time money given the travel time and the cost of fuel.  Players that work all day, will they want a 4 hour commute on a weeknight just to go training?

Other Champ clubs will be able to offer players less money than Newcastle and still manage to beat them to signings when u factor in travel time and costs. 

I hope im wrong as id love to see the sport take off up there but i sadly cant see how they will be competitive in this league going forward. 

They’re building a strong community game in the north east, that will of course take time, but once it’s been going for 10-15 years there’ll be plenty of open age players with years of experience, and who will be their local pro / semi pro club? 

[The Blues Ox]

Less than 2 months ago they signed Ollie Roberts to a multi year full time contract so I imagine whatever has happened must have happened after that? The poor lad bought a house up there before moving. Makes me wonder if the game is in doubt this weekend against Fax for a number of reasons. Firstly players are going to be getting contracts tore up putting the club in breach, now maybe they will say they will pay them to the end of the year but there is literally no incentive for anyone to risk playing this game and potentially picking up an injury that could see them without a contract for next season. What a shambles.

[LeytherRob]

2 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Less than 2 months ago they signed Ollie Roberts to a multi year full time contract so I imagine whatever has happened must have happened after that? The poor lad bought a house up there before moving. Makes me wonder if the game is in doubt this weekend against Fax for a number of reasons. Firstly players are going to be getting contracts tore up putting the club in breach, now maybe they will say they will pay them to the end of the year but there is literally no incentive for anyone to risk playing this game and potentially picking up an injury that could see them without a contract for next season. What a shambles.

I'd be surprised if the game didn't go ahead, players will want to be putting themselves in the shop window now to try and find deals for next year