Teams finishing 5th or 6th SHOULD NOT have a chance to win SL

[Dave T]

Just now, Dunbar said:

As I say above.  That was a typo, I am saying I don't believe Leeds route was easy this year.  But I also believe that the route for 5th and 6th should be more disproportionately harder than it currently is.

Yes,  I agree.  I don't know what the best answer is. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, bobbruce said:

Sometimes those repeat fixtures created the story line. Certainly with a top 5 as competitive as it is now. With hopefully more clubs to push on next season. 

I'll say this quietly,  but one of my favourite crazy initiatives was Club Call,  which came I to its own just as it was scrapped for Top 4.

[bobbruce]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'll say this quietly,  but one of my favourite crazy initiatives was Club Call,  which came I to its own just as it was scrapped for Top 4.

Very quietly. I know what you are saying though it gave games a bit of an edge but I’m not sure the team with the pick appreciated it. 

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

I think it’s harsh to say Leeds route was easy. The top 5 system though gave a clear advantage to each team as you went up the league. Which is the system I’d go with if it was up to me. 

Whoever finishes in the top 6 and whoever you play in the play offs should be hard to beat. That should be a given really at this stage.

Ultimately in terms of systems playing 1 extra game to get to the final isn't too much of a disadvantage in my opinion. Neither is home advantage. With the current system I just don't see a great advantage in finishing higher up in the table and that is wrong in my opinion. It's ultimately just a tough quarter final and/or semi final in a cup.

Top 5 was pretty much the perfect play off system in my opinion with appropriate weighting given to league placing with reward for the top 2 in terms of 2nd chance.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Damien

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Very quietly. I know what you are saying though it gave games a bit of an edge but I’m not sure the team with the pick appreciated it. 

It was only the last year or two when they started to go against seeding.  I'm sure Wire picked Hudds and beat them to knock them out despite being the higher ranked team. 

Giving the highest ranked team Clubcall each week gets my vote! 

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

It was only the last year or two when they started to go against seeding.  I'm sure Wire picked Hudds and beat them to knock them out despite being the higher ranked team. 

Giving the highest ranked team Clubcall each week gets my vote! 

That’s ok for you unless there’s a massive change next year Wire won’t be picking anyone. 

[paul hicks]

5 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

So less games (less income) for the hard up clubs and get rid of magic.... Great stuff you should apply for Rimmers job.

no club loses a home game from what they have now

Edited September 18, 2022 by paul hicks

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, paul hicks said:

no club loses a home game

Every club gave up a home game because MW made up for it. That’s why we went from 28 rounds to 27. If you give magic up we’ll likely go back to 28 unless you can pay for it another way. 

[paul hicks]

4 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Every club gave up a home game because MW made up for it. That’s why we went from 28 rounds to 27. If you give magic up we’ll likely go back to 28 unless you can pay for it another way. 

fair enough go back to 28 rounds or go to 14 team league and stick with 26 rounds with everyone playing each other home and away

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, paul hicks said:

fair enough go back to 28 rounds or go to 14 team league and stick with 26 rounds with everyone playing each other home and away

So spread the TV money out more and lose MW. 

[Niels]

I think it varies on the competition and strength of teams.

As a Batley fan, we will probably have to beat Barrow, Featherstone, Leigh all away. I think that is challenging enough from 5th.

Leeds had Catalans and Wigan away, plus St Helens neutral. Which comparitively is difficult also but less daunting maybe due to the evenness of the sides. 

I think the neutral ground final makes it a bit more obtainable to win from 5th in Super League.

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Every club gave up a home game because MW made up for it. That’s why we went from 28 rounds to 27. If you give magic up we’ll likely go back to 28 unless you can pay for it another way. 

As always with Magic things like this get bandied about and I have yet to see anything credible stating its the case today. Thats not meant to be a criticism of you by the way. The financials and everything around it are shrouded in mystery and there is a lot of presumption but no hard facts. What was the case when Cardiff first paid for Magic does not apply now. There have been seasons where we have played 29 games even with Magic, the last non Covid affected season was that. That's more than the last season pre Magic. Its only the World Cup that saw us at 27 this year. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Damien

[Dave T]

RL is often criticised as a sport by fans for abandoning things too quickly. 

The fact we still run with Magic tells us that it provides value. I think personally we'd be crazy to scrap it. 

[bobbruce]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

As always with Magic things like this get bandied about and I have yet to see anything credible stating its the case today. Thats not meant to be a criticism of you by the way. The financials and everything around it are shrouded in mystery and there is a lot of presumption but no hard facts. What was the case when Cardiff first paid for Magic does not apply now. There have been seasons where we have played 29 games even with Magic, the last non Covid affected season was that. That's more than the last season pre Magic. Its only the World Cup that saw us at 27 this year. 

Fair enough but If SL don’t negotiate any benefit from Sky from having 6 live games over the weekend with minimum set up costs then they aren’t doing there job. To suggest that SL clubs get nothing from MW is wrong and we know that because the clubs would just drop it if that was the case. We know how they love a u turn. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, bobbruce said:

Fair enough but If SL don’t negotiate any benefit from Sky from having 6 live games over the weekend with minimum set up costs then they aren’t doing there job. To suggest that SL clubs get nothing from MW is wrong and we know that because the clubs would just drop it if that was the case. We know how they love a u turn. 

I completely agree with your first line but I do think the value to Sky argument gets overegged. Sky pay for a set number of games and just cut the TV deal by £15 million with Magic, I think there are plenty more things we need to do to offer on that front.

Ive not suggested clubs get nothing from Magic, not sure where you are getting that from. My point was I don't know what clubs get, no one does, but a lot of things get said to justify it which there is no evidence of. I'd be amazed though if it's more than another home game would be every 2 seasons, for the bigger clubs anyway. I do think Magic provides cover to allow clubs to justify loop fixtures and provides a good spectacle in a big stadium which I imagine is attractive to sponsors. Its basically a good day out on a big stage for all teams so I understand why they like it.

[yipyee]

Top 5 where it got harder the lower down you finished was by far the best system.

So for finishing 5th you would need to beat everybody above you away from home to win the league.

[paul hicks]

57 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

So spread the TV money out more and lose MW. 

hey this has all started because people don't agree with the playoffs to be champions. i just suggested a way out of it 

I'm perfectly happy to carry on as it is but these woke modernists who want to make everything, so nobody is upset by not winning been champions want to change things.

sorry i had to get woke into it to upset the people who think there traditional by wanting a first past the post system

[Damien]

To satisfy my own curiosity I just looked at the years when we had the top 5 McIntyre system, every final was between the top two.

Even when we had the similar top 6 system, where the top two still got a 2nd chance, almost every final was between the top two.

In all in 12 years under these two systems we only had 1 team win outside the top two, Bradford from 3rd in 2005. Only twice did we have a team outside the top two in the final, which in both years was the third place team.

That suggests to me that these systems rewarded league placing more fairly than ones that lean towards a straight knockout.

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I am not saying that the Leeds route to the Grand Final was easy.

I am saying that, in my opinion, a play off system should make it harder.

If we are to have a play of system then it needs to disproportionately favour the higher placed teams.  More so than it does now.

How much harder can you make it? Realistically?

Without making Leeds and Salford play with a man down or similar, it has been as difficult as possible for them to reach Old Trafford. Indeed Only one of them has.

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

How much harder can you make it? Realistically?

Without making Leeds and Salford play with a man down or similar, it has been as difficult as possible for them to reach Old Trafford. Indeed Only one of them has.

This year, teams finishing 5th and 6th have to win 3 sudden death games to lift the trophy and the team finishing 1st has to win 2 sudden death games.

Under the top 5 system, the team finishing 5th had to win 4 sudden death games and the team finishing 1st had to win 2 games to win the trophy and had a second chance if they lost their first play off game.

That for me is proportionally harder and certainly much more of a reward for topping the league.

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

This year, teams finishing 5th and 6th have to win 3 sudden death games to lift the trophy and the team finishing 1st has to win 2 sudden death games.

Under the top 5 system, the team finishing 5th had to win 4 sudden death games and the team finishing 1st had to win 2 games to win the trophy and had a second chance if they lost their first play off game.

That for me is proportionally harder and certainly much more of a reward for topping the league.

I think people also forget what great preparation the 1 v 2 game was. It really battle hardened those two teams and left even the loser in great shape to then beat whoever they had too in their 2nd chance semi final.

[JT RL]

The Grand Final should pit the winner of the League and winner of the Challenge Cup, to determine the team of the year.  

[Loiner]

Might as well say why should a team finishing 2nd have a chance of winning.

[Niels]

Does anyone know, or can remember, which years the premiership was more important than the league?

I ask because I read on a Leigh message board that Leigh were champions in 1982 when they were top of the league, and the premiership wasn't important.

However I recall Dewsbury won the championship in 1973, but this was via a premiership. 

Was there a change in between these years?

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 16/09/2022 at 23:29, Damien said:

To me it is simply another RL mechanism, like the salary cap, that just breeds and encourages mediocrity.

It breeds excitement and stories

This year is a perfect example