RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

The RU World Cup in 2015 got £80 million from the government, does your argument apply to them? What about the bid for the women's RU World Cup in 2025 that also has got Government funding?

Governments funding events is quite normal. I'm not sure why you think RL is a special case.

None of the story makes sense. How can we go from minimal government investment in 2013 and a £4m profit, to £15m investment, plus record income, and struggle to break even? 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’m aware of it. That’s just not the deal that rugby league cut, because unlike many sports we don’t have the prestige or “outside economic value creation” to offer the Govt. in exchange - unlike the Olympics, football or rugby World Cups. 
 

It is what it is. I’d like it to be different, but then I’d also like to be 6’6” with Brad Pitt’s hair and that ain’t gonna happen either. We cut a good deal in the circumstances. 

Well, if you were involved in the commercials on this, I will have to take your word for it, but it would be a, frankly, bizarre set of numbers that makes no sense. 

[Archie Gordon]

8 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

“Hi, is that DCMS?”

”Yes, how can we help?”

”Well, we’re deciding between running a scaled-down 10 man Men’s World Cup that might make a surplus, or a 16 team comp with an additional investment in a Women’s comp, Wheelchair comp and other disability sports initiatives. If we did the latter, would you subsidise it?”

”Sure, how would the numbers work?”

”Well, we need you to chip in £20m of taxpayers money, and if all goes to plan we’ll spend £17m on the tournament and keep £3m afterwards. How’s that sound?”

”Sure, the cheques in the post. Have fun!”

 

The Government will have invested because they'll have been sold on some economic multiplier effect of their input. Someone (NAO) will hold them to that afterwards. Nobody is "chipping in" towards a fixed cost with no consideration of externalities.

[Damien]

Just now, Dave T said:

None of the story makes sense. How can we go from minimal government investment in 2013 and a £4m profit, to £15m investment, plus record income, and struggle to break even? 

I was wondering if you are on to something with the rights fee and wondered if the Government's £10 million went straight to the IRL as the fee then the tournament itself must work to generate a profit.

However even that doesn't make sense as we know that the IRL is £2.3 million in debt and had to borrow money from the Australian based RLIF. We discussed all that previously if you remember. If they'd have got a £10 million rights fee then they wouldn't have needed to do that and wouldn't be waiting for RLWC revenue to pay off debts.

It's all as clear as mud.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

The Government will have invested because they'll have been sold on some economic multiplier effect of their input. Someone (NAO) will hold them to that afterwards. Nobody is "chipping in" towards a fixed cost with no consideration of externalities.

It's really basic stuff tbh. These things bring economic value, tourism, social benefits, civic pride etc to the host nations. That's what the government are paying for. 

RLWC are saying if you pay £15m we'll deliver £xxm in benefits for you. 

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

I was wondering if you are on to something with the rights fee and wondered if the Government's £10 million went straight to the IRL as the fee then the tournament itself must work to generate a profit.

However even that doesn't make sense as we know that the IRL is £2.3 million in debt and had to borrow money from the Australian based RLIF. We discussed all that previously if you remember. If they'd have got a £10 million rights fee then they wouldn't have needed to do that and wouldn't be waiting for RLWC revenue to pay off debts.

It's all as clear as mud.

I should add, the £10m was a number I plucked out of thin air

But looking at a recent RUWC bidding process, the minimum guarantee to WorldRU was £120m.

[Sitona]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I should add, the £10m was a number I plucked out of thin air

But looking at a recent RUWC bidding process, the minimum guarantee to WorldRU was £120m.

Government funding comes from the Northern powerhouse initiative. 
 

government committed £25 million towards the tournament and its legacy with up to £15 million pledged to support the staging of the event and up to £10 million for Rugby League’s facilities through large community projects, such as refurbishing changing rooms and installing new artificial pitches, as well as smaller-scale initiatives including supplying new kit or equipment to clubs.

 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Sitona said:

Government funding comes from the Northern powerhouse initiative. 
 

government committed £25 million towards the tournament and its legacy with up to £15 million pledged to support the staging of the event and up to £10 million for Rugby League’s facilities through large community projects, such as refurbishing changing rooms and installing new artificial pitches, as well as smaller-scale initiatives including supplying new kit or equipment to clubs.

 

Yep. However HKB tells us we can't make any profit on that. Because we are Rugby League. But other sports are allowed just fine. 

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I should add, the £10m was a number I plucked out of thin air

But looking at a recent RUWC bidding process, the minimum guarantee to WorldRU was £120m.

I actually meant £15 million as per the Government funding towards the staging as the rights fee but that obviously isn't the case either.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Damien

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

2 hours ago, Leonard said:

I forget if they go into Euston or KX.

They are practically next to each other anyway - whichever one is the terminal.

Yeah....few minutes walk from Euston to Kx.....the Euston tap outside actually has some decent ale if you need a lift before walking 

[The Masked Poster]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

I partly agree. Beating them would be amazing, but I'd love to see them not even make the final. 

Correct. It would puncture their arrogance even more. Let's not pretend Australia aren't the best RL team (whatever the stats say -  they are) but a bit of humble pie would do them good. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by The Masked Poster

[Dave T]

On 17/10/2022 at 22:03, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Yes, it's obvious

We know the tournament doesn't overall run to break-even, as it is designed to create a surplus for the IRL to invest... 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

“Hi, is that DCMS?”

”Yes, how can we help?”

”Well, we’re deciding between running a scaled-down 10 man Men’s World Cup that might make a surplus, or a 16 team comp with an additional investment in a Women’s comp, Wheelchair comp and other disability sports initiatives. If we did the latter, would you subsidise it?”

”Sure, how would the numbers work?”

”Well, we need you to chip in £20m of taxpayers money, and if all goes to plan we’ll spend £17m on the tournament and keep £3m afterwards. How’s that sound?”

”Sure, the cheques in the post. Have fun!”

 

I'm very confused about the complete contradiction in these two posts just days apart. 

Is this a shared account between Jon Dutton and Mick Hogan? 

So, about this bridge? 

[Jim from Oz]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

There are, but ultimately, when a CEO of a tournament talks about a comp breaking even, that is a relatively simple point. It isn't a complex financial discussion. 

Sorry, I have missed where Jon Sutton has talked about the tournament breaking even… Can you repost this link? Thanks

[Jim from Oz]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It’s literally about three people working from home and a few volunteers. No disrespect to them, they do a great job given their lack of numbers and resources, but it is a really small outfit. 

Troy Grant is head of the IRL and he doesn’t get paid a cent! I heard him say that on a chasingroos podcast, his is a purely voluntary role! Which I find incredible…

[Jim from Oz]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/20/rugby-league-world-cup-on-course-to-break-attendance-record-say-organisers

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

Sorry, I have missed where Jon Sutton has talked about the tournament breaking even… Can you repost this link? Thanks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/63330824

 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/63330824

 

There was an interesting snippet in there, that highlighted that total viewing figures are at 3.8m so far for the first round. 

The 2013 tournament had 13.8m in the UK, with a peak of 2.8m for the Eng v NZ semi final. 

We should easily beat that now games are on BBC over Premier. 

[Jim from Oz]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/63330824

 

Ah, thanks…. Hard to believe the tournament is struggling to break even!

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

Ah, thanks…. Hard to believe the tournament is struggling to break even!

Who knows what's really going on there? 

[Madrileño]

14 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

Ah, thanks…. Hard to believe the tournament is struggling to break even!

Not really.

You are bringing pro teams in from all over the world, players, staff, hotels, training facilities etc..... on crowds of 5 and 6000 for matches.

There seems to be very few travelling supporters coming into the cities either. If you look at the women's Euros, there was an influx of overseas fans following their teams. The RLWC crowds seem to be made up of people from Leigh and St Helens,  plus a couple of hundred Tongans. There are no big crowds of Australians or New Zealanders flying across for it, almost nobody from Ireland, a handful of French and even the Welsh don't seem to be bothered about jumping into the car to support their country. 

Admittedly, with an extra year to prepare, we should definitely expect far bigger crowds, as the matches could have been built up as 'events' much more than they have been.  

How much profit did you expect it to make, and based on what? 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Madrileño

[Number 16]

Why are people getting het up? The RFL has always been about smoke and mirrors.

[GeordieSaint]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Who knows what's really going on there? 

Cough cough… job for Sadler… cough cough.

[Copa]

21 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

Not really.

You are bringing pro teams in from all over the world, players, staff, hotels, training facilities etc..... on crowds of 5 and 6000 for matches.

There seems to be very few travelling supporters coming into the cities either. If you look at the women's Euros, there was an influx of overseas fans following their teams. The RLWC crowds seem to be made up of people from Leigh and St Helens,  plus a couple of hundred Tongans. There are no big crowds of Australians or New Zealanders flying across for it, almost nobody from Ireland, a handful of French and even the Welsh don't seem to be bothered about jumping into the car to support their country. 

Admittedly, with an extra year to prepare, we should definitely expect far bigger crowds, as the matches could have been built up as 'events' much more than they have been.  

How much profit did you expect it to make, and based on what? 

My family of five recently looked for tickets for a trip to the UK from Australia. It was going to cost around $16,000. The prices at the moment are outrageous. So I’m not surprised there are very few traveling fans.

[Dave T]

58 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

Not really.

You are bringing pro teams in from all over the world, players, staff, hotels, training facilities etc..... on crowds of 5 and 6000 for matches.

There seems to be very few travelling supporters coming into the cities either. If you look at the women's Euros, there was an influx of overseas fans following their teams. The RLWC crowds seem to be made up of people from Leigh and St Helens,  plus a couple of hundred Tongans. There are no big crowds of Australians or New Zealanders flying across for it, almost nobody from Ireland, a handful of French and even the Welsh don't seem to be bothered about jumping into the car to support their country. 

Admittedly, with an extra year to prepare, we should definitely expect far bigger crowds, as the matches could have been built up as 'events' much more than they have been.  

How much profit did you expect it to make, and based on what? 

It's already been stated that we made almost £4m profit in 2013, without a £15m government investment, and with far, far lower prices. 

We've been told that we will beat those crowds, have record investment, have record commercials, have record corporates, and highest ticket prices ever leading to highest ticket income ever. 

That's what it's based on. 

[Madrileño]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's already been stated that we made almost £4m profit in 2013, without a £15m government investment, and with far, far lower prices. 

We've been told that we will beat those crowds, have record investment, have record commercials, have record corporates, and highest ticket prices ever leading to highest ticket income ever. 

That's what it's based on. 

I wasn't really asking you. It was a reply to Jim from Oz, whose post I quoted. 

But.... did you really believe that stuff? 

Most of the venue cities (well... towns!) don't really seem to very engaged with the tournament at all. One or 2 are, but most of them seem to be making a token effort at best.