England starting 17 for next week - Who would you pick, who will be picked? Semi Final Time

[thehullram]

After a blockbusting first 30 minutes v PNG, the game was over as a contest, but who would you pick for the semi final v Samoa, and who do you think Mr Wane will go with (if different). 

My 17 would be:-

1. Tomkins
2. Makinson
3. Farnworth
4. Watkins
5. Young
6. Welsby
7. Williams
8. Burgess
9. McIlorum
10. Cooper
11. Whitehead
12. Bateman
13. Radley
14. Hill (think we need his go forward when Burgess comes off)
15. Thompson (need some more beef upfront)
16. Lees
17. Knowles

Wanes 17 I think will be:-

My 17 would be (same as last week):-

1. Tomkins
2. Makinson
3. Farnworth
4. Watkins
5. Young
6. Welsby
7. Williams
8. Burgess
9. McIlorum
10. Hill
11. Whitehead
12. Bateman
13. Radley
14. Cooper
15. McMeeken
16. Lees
17. Knowles

[Agbrigg]

Th only player I would look to be replacing from last game is Cooper, i thought he was poor.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

Th only player I would look to be replacing from last game is Cooper, i thought he was poor.

I would go Thompson for some go forward.

I think we beat them up in the forwards all day. That or Thompson for Lees.

[GeordieSaint]

Thompson for Lees; only change.

[WN83]

Mine would just be one change of Thompson for McMeekan but I think Wane might go same again. 

[JM2010]

16 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Thompson for Lees; only change.

Same for me

[DavidM]

Id have Thompson on the bench to aim up with their big boppers . Lees and Cooper together lacks some impact for me . Again , I’d also have Ackers to snipe against fatiguing big middles . Tonga just bashing away didnt work but they did have some joy with speed in the middle for their try . Ackers gives something Mcilorum doesn’t nor putting Victor in there

[Saint Toppy]

15 hours ago, Agbrigg said:

Th only player I would look to be replacing from last game is Cooper, i thought he was poor.

I agree with the change but I don't think Cooper was necessarily poor, more that he didn't really bring that much. Lees came on and while he didn't bring much in terms of metre making his defence was outstanding, time after time leading the defensive line and throwing everything he had into every tackle. Similar with Knowles, smashed every PNG player in sight all afternoon and completely stifled their go forward even when they had a fair amount of possession in England's half.

For me Thompson would give that extra bit of go forward that England need when Burges & Hill go off without sacrificing any defensive capabilities of the pack.

So for me, same starting 13 then with Thompson for Cooper on the bench.

[Dunbar]

41 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I agree with the change but I don't think Cooper was necessarily poor, more that he didn't really bring that much. Lees came on and while he didn't bring much in terms of metre making his defence was outstanding, time after time leading the defensive line and throwing everything he had into every tackle. Similar with Knowles, smashed every PNG player in sight all afternoon and completely stifled their go forward even when they had a fair amount of possession in England's half.

For me Thompson would give that extra bit of go forward that England need when Burges & Hill go off without sacrificing any defensive capabilities of the pack.

So for me, same starting 13 then with Thompson for Cooper on the bench.

I think this is a very generous assessment of Lees.

The one part I agree with is that he had good line speed in defence.  But England had good line speed all game and this isn't something that improved when Lees came on.  England's defence has been great and has been extremely technical, excellent line speed and bodies in the tackle to manage the ruck.  They are not making big hits but they have an excellent defence that restricts metres and controls the opposition.  Very much like the Kangaroos in fact.

Lees is full of energy but he missed 8 tackles in the PNG game, which is the same as the rest of the England pack combined (starting pack and interchange).  Add to this the fact that he was put on his back in the tackle while the other middles regularly found their fronts and I just think he doesn't offer enough in the strongest parts of his game to compensate for this.

Cooper on the other hand was solid, more metres, more post contact metres and more tackle breaks.  And 2 missed tackles to Lees' 8.

Lees and Thompson can both offer similar things as they both have fast feet for bigger men.  But despite not being the best technical defender himself, I think he offers more impact.  I would add Thompson for Lees as probably the only change in the 17.

[MattSantos]

Aye. Thompson for Lees makes sense.

Would be happy wi same 17 though.

Christ i'm nervous.

[Davo5]

Thompson for the ineffective Lees would be the obvious change but I’d also like to see Ackers on the bench,he could carve up a tiring Samoan defence late on.

[WN83]

I've seen a few people question Coopers place on social media and the odd one on here and I must be watching different games. He's constantly making ground and getting us on the front foot. He ran over 100 metres in the first game and again on Saturday. 

There was an article somewhere that highlighted Lees lack of go forward on Saturday but I'd have him in the side as well. Matty Lees is not  a big metre maker but he's defensively very good. The missed tackle stats are a bit misleading, much like they are for guys like him and Knowles in Superleague. They get off their line and try to bash people and that will always lead to the odd miss here and there but it's very rarely costly, if the rest of the team is following their lead and defending with intensity and energy. We've had every game our own way so far but that might not be the case on Saturday and it certainly won't be the case if we reach a final, so we then need guys like Lees and Knowles more than ever. That's why my change would be Thompson for McMeekan. Bateman and Whitehead can do the 80 mins and if there is an issue there, Knowles can slot in to the second row. 

[Dunbar]

7 minutes ago, WN83 said:

That's why my change would be Thompson for McMeekan. Bateman and Whitehead can do the 80 mins and if there is an issue there, Knowles can slot in to the second row. 

Yes, Bateman and Whitehead can do 80 minutes but you also have to account for any injuries to outside backs.  Especially if you are carrying 4 forwards on the bench which we will no doubt do again.

If we had an injury to a centre then either Bateman or Whitehead can do a job there (as could McMeeken in fact) and an injury to a winger would mean a centre shifts to the wing and again Bateman/Whitehead can cover the centre.  But you then have to cover their edge forward spot.

Put 4 middles on the bench - Lees, Cooper, Knowles and Thompson and we lose that ability and we would end up with a middle playing on the edge which really effects defensive shape - and I think that includes Knowles as well.  edge defending is very different to the middle as you have to be able to read those shift plays.  It is a risk to move any of them to the edge defensively for me.

McMeeken is a good bench player as he is big and strong but also very used to defending and attacking on the edge.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Dunbar

[WN83]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, Bateman and Whitehead can do 80 minutes but you also have to account for any injuries to outside backs.  Especially if you are carrying 4 forwards on the bench which we will no doubt do again.

If we had an injury to a centre then either Bateman or Whitehead can do a job there (as could McMeeken in fact) and an injury to a winger would mean a centre shifts to the wing and again Bateman/Whitehead can cover the centre.  But you then have to cover their edge forward spot.

Put 4 middles on the bench - Lees, Cooper, Knowles and Thompson and we lose that ability and we would end up with a middle playing on the edge which really effects defensive shape - and I think that includes Knowles as well.  edge defending is very different to the middle as you have to be able to read those shift plays.  It is a risk to move any of them to the edge defensively for me.

McMeeken is a good bench player as he is big and strong but also very used to defending and attacking on the edge.

I wouldn't have any worries at all with Knowles or even Radley in the second row tbh. I know Knowles has played in the position over the years now and again, including on a couple of occasions this season. Maybe I'm just not wanting to make a decision on which prop to leave out but I think all 3 of Thompson, Cooper and Lees should be in and they all bring something a little different. You then have Knowles who is versatile and can cover pretty much any position in the pack. If there's an issue at 9 Radley can go in there. At centre Bateman can shift over and Knowles covers back row (same if a winger goes down and Farnworth would move out there). 

We'll see what he goes with. In my mind there are 2 bench spots up for grabs between Lees, McMeekan and Thompson. I think the other 15 players have nailed their spots. 

[Dunbar]

14 minutes ago, WN83 said:

I wouldn't have any worries at all with Knowles or even Radley in the second row tbh. I know Knowles has played in the position over the years now and again, including on a couple of occasions this season. Maybe I'm just not wanting to make a decision on which prop to leave out but I think all 3 of Thompson, Cooper and Lees should be in and they all bring something a little different. You then have Knowles who is versatile and can cover pretty much any position in the pack. If there's an issue at 9 Radley can go in there. At centre Bateman can shift over and Knowles covers back row (same if a winger goes down and Farnworth would move out there). 

We'll see what he goes with. In my mind there are 2 bench spots up for grabs between Lees, McMeekan and Thompson. I think the other 15 players have nailed their spots. 

I just think it is sensible when you are carrying 4 forwards on the bench, and one isn't an interchange 9, that you have a specialist edge forward.  Putting Radley or Knowles in there would be a risk to our defensive shape however good they are as players.  3 middles and an edge player is just a better balance than having a bench of 4 middle forwards.

[WN83]

15 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I just think it is sensible when you are carrying 4 forwards on the bench, and one isn't an interchange 9, that you have a specialist edge forward.  Putting Radley or Knowles in there would be a risk to our defensive shape however good they are as players.  3 middles and an edge player is just a better balance than having a bench of 4 middle forwards.

I think it's how he will go again. I think he might make that Lees to Thompson change or he'll go same again. We've got good options regardless. He'll never please everyone Wane but the performances are earning the right for him to pick whoever he sees fit. 

[usain bolt]

He'll go 4 middles like he did v png and Samoa, Mcmeeken was used as a middle even though he's an edge for Catalans. Knowles, Lees, Cooper, Thompson, Mcmeeken, 4 from those 5. Wouldn't be surprised if the team stays the same, but Thompson in for either Lees or Mcmeeken would be my pick.

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, WN83 said:

I wouldn't have any worries at all with Knowles or even Radley in the second row tbh. I know Knowles has played in the position over the years now and again, including on a couple of occasions this season. Maybe I'm just not wanting to make a decision on which prop to leave out but I think all 3 of Thompson, Cooper and Lees should be in and they all bring something a little different. You then have Knowles who is versatile and can cover pretty much any position in the pack. If there's an issue at 9 Radley can go in there. At centre Bateman can shift over and Knowles covers back row (same if a winger goes down and Farnworth would move out there). 

We'll see what he goes with. In my mind there are 2 bench spots up for grabs between Lees, McMeekan and Thompson. I think the other 15 players have nailed their spots. 

Both Radley & Knowles are more than capable of playing on an edge if required but I’d have a bench of Thompson,Cooper,Knowles & Ackers but as you say I can’t see Wane wanting to make changes & the run on side barring injury picks itself.

[JDR]

1. Tomkins
2. Makinson
3. Farnworth
4. Watkins
5. Young
6. Welsby
7. Williams
8. Burgess
9. McIlorum
10. Hill
11. Whitehead
12. Bateman
13. Radley
14. Cooper
15. Thompson
16. McMeeken
17. Knowles

Happy to admit I was wrong about Tomkins, McIlorum & Bateman on current form. No backs on the bench for me but I'm happy for Bateman to cover centre and for any reshuffles eg Tomkins to the halves if needed.

[Wigan Riversider]

Believe we will be powerful enough to overcome Samoa but it won't be a stroll in the park.

Having posted that I genuinely expected us to lose in the opening game against Samoa and also against PNG in the QF.

Proves I am not the best pundit!!

Absolutely delighted with England in this WC.

[Dunbar]

55 minutes ago, usain bolt said:

He'll go 4 middles like he did v png and Samoa, Mcmeeken was used as a middle even though he's an edge for Catalans. Knowles, Lees, Cooper, Thompson, Mcmeeken, 4 from those 5. Wouldn't be surprised if the team stays the same, but Thompson in for either Lees or Mcmeeken would be my pick.

McMeeken may have been used in the middle but his experience on the edge is valuable.  We haven't had to reshuffle our backline in the bigger games but McMeeken offers us that option without losing experience on the edge.

People saying Radley or Knowles could slot into the edge are underestimating the value of having a player who defends there every week... especially if that is to get Lees and Thompson onto the bench together.

My view is that McMeeken keeps his bench spot due to his versatility and its Lees or Thompson. 

I would have no problems with Wane keeping a winning 17 together though.

[Barry Badrinath]

18 hours ago, Leonard said:

I would go Thompson for some go forward.

I think we beat them up in the forwards all day. That or Thompson for Lees.

Deffo Thompson for Lees, after this week.

[usain bolt]

Just now, Dunbar said:

McMeeken may have been used in the middle but his experience on the edge is valuable.  We haven't had to reshuffle our backline in the bigger games but McMeeken offers us that option without losing experience on the edge.

People saying Radley or Knowles could slot into the edge are underestimating the value of having a player who defends there every week... especially if that is to get Lees and Thompson onto the bench together.

My view is that McMeeken keeps his bench spot due to his versatility and its Lees or Thompson. 

I would have no problems with Wane keeping a winning 17 together though.

I agree, Mcmeeken gives added flexibility being able to play edge, but he's still there as a middle in wanes eyes, he'll be in the middles rotation unless injury strikes elsewhere. 

[DavidM]

How do  people think Bateman has gone so far ? 

[Barry Badrinath]

8 minutes ago, DavidM said:

How do  people think Bateman has gone so far ? 

probably had his best game this week, there's some legit respect in defences now outside him due to watkins and youngs  performances so he's had some room to skip back towards the middle and look for some gaps.