Sat 12th Nov: RLWC SF: England v Samoa KO 14:30

[Archie Gordon]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Williams runs himself and kicks, that's what he does. He will always make half breaks because he runs time and again. Some people rate that but I want a half who offers a little more than constantly going himself on the 4th tackle and then leaving no kick option on the 5th. He tries hard but that is part of the problem, he tries too hard to make it happen himself. As an experienced half he should have been directing the play and showing some composure but instead he was part of the problem. That is compounded when Tomkins and Welsby aren't offering that either.

I think it's a little bit harsh to criticise Williams for the deficiencies of 1 and 6. A very limited spine was selected - a 9 who has no guile, can't distribute, engage markers or kick, plus a 6 who is not a natural half and who also can't kick - was always likely to catch up with us.

[The Masked Poster]

So, after yet *another* defeat when it matters, the general consensus is "shut up and stop moaning, it's no big deal, we'll improve next time". 

Maybe this acceptance of failure is embedded in the England camp too? It wouldn't be so bad if we'd even won the occasional final, like the odd 4N or.....anything. But we haven't, yet the view is "nothing to see here, not the end of the world". 

[Damien]

16 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I think it's a little bit harsh to criticise Williams for the deficiencies of 1 and 6. A very limited spine was selected - a 9 who has no guile, can't distribute, engage markers or kick, plus a 6 who is not a natural half and who also can't kick - was always likely to catch up with us.

Yes that's valid mitigation but it doesn't get away from Williams deficiencies either. Based on club form he was lucky to even be selected. It is for these reasons I wanted Welsby at full back and someone like Sneyd playing in the halfs. There were always issues with the Tomkins, Welsby and Williams combo and they were laid bare yesterday. I think everyone agrees with the flaws with the McIlorum selection.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Damien

[Tippytoe]

11 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

He should have been playing for Ireland, if Micky Mac is our best hooker we are in trouble.

I'm not a particular fan of his and I haven't seen the stats but I bet he made more tackles in first 30mins than others at which point he'd done his job,the fact we had no one to add spark from bench is a selection issue. 

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

So, after yet *another* defeat when it matters, the general consensus is "shut up and stop moaning, it's no big deal, we'll improve next time". 

Maybe this acceptance of failure is embedded in the England camp too? It wouldn't be so bad if we'd even won the occasional final, like the odd 4N or.....anything. But we haven't, yet the view is "nothing to see here, not the end of the world". 

Your argument is weak when nobody has ever said its no big deal. If you have to make stuff up then it's not really worth discussing is it? 

Serious question - had we got a last second drop goal would you have still been calling for the wholesale changes and been so angry with SL, the RFL, the players, the coaches, well everything? 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Tippytoe said:

I'm not a particular fan of his and I haven't seen the stats but I bet he made more tackles in first 30mins than others at which point he'd done his job,the fact we had no one to add spark from bench is a selection issue. 

Whilst this may be true the trouble is  McIlorum would have been great for this 5-10 years ago. At his prime he was very underrated. The trouble is he is way off that now.

[The Masked Poster]

Just now, Dave T said:

Your argument is weak when nobody has ever said its no big deal. If you have to make stuff up then it's not really worth discussing is it? 

Serious question - had we got a last second drop goal would you have still been calling for the wholesale changes and been so angry with SL, the RFL, the players, the coaches, well everything? 

Well the tone on here is very much one of acceptance, so it clearly doesn't matter that much.

I'm not angry though, why do you say that? I'm utterly shot and depressed about yet again, believing we had a chance. That is not anger, it's sadness as I don't think the game will ever go anywhere now. 

As for the "what if" scenario, file under "if my aunty had balls"..... We didn't get a last second drop goal did we?  And we should not have even been in need of one.

If that ankle tap hadn't happened in the last WC final, it might have been different. But it wasn't and it isn't. 

And I've spent too many years convincing myself otherwise. How you see it is entirely up to you. 

 

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Well the tone on here is very much one of acceptance, so it clearly doesn't matter that much.

I'm not angry though, why do you say that? I'm utterly shot and depressed about yet again, believing we had a chance. That is not anger, it's sadness as I don't think the game will ever go anywhere now. 

As for the "what if" scenario, file under "if my aunty had balls"..... We didn't get a last second drop goal did we?  And we should not have even been in need of one.

If that ankle tap hadn't happened in the last WC final, it might have been different. But it wasn't and it isn't. 

And I've spent too many years convincing myself otherwise. How you see it is entirely up to you. 

 

Acceptance? Of course, what else can we do?

[The Masked Poster]

5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Acceptance? Of course, what else can we do?

Good question, to which I don't have the answer. But like having any problem in life, you don't get anywhere until you are honest about the situation. 

How many times do you think I have reacted the same as you? All of them, every defeat I've witnessed, either in person or on TV has been met with a defiant "ah well...it's because of reasons X Y and Z, if only this had happened " Repeat ad  nauseam. 

But I think I've reached tipping point. Sorry. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by The Masked Poster

[MatthewWoody]

23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Your argument is weak when nobody has ever said its no big deal. If you have to make stuff up then it's not really worth discussing is it? 

Serious question - had we got a last second drop goal would you have still been calling for the wholesale changes and been so angry with SL, the RFL, the players, the coaches, well everything? 

We'd be relieved. But questions about the level of the team and the league here would still be there.

[Wigan Riversider]

13 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Well the tone on here is very much one of acceptance, so it clearly doesn't matter that much.

I'm not angry though, why do you say that? I'm utterly shot and depressed about yet again, believing we had a chance. That is not anger, it's sadness as I don't think the game will ever go anywhere now. 

As for the "what if" scenario, file under "if my aunty had balls"..... We didn't get a last second drop goal did we?  And we should not have even been in need of one.

If that ankle tap hadn't happened in the last WC final, it might have been different. But it wasn't and it isn't. 

And I've spent too many years convincing myself otherwise. How you see it is entirely up to you. 

 

I think like me and many you are deflated and fed up.

40 years since the Invincibles blew us away and 50 long years since we won the WC.

For too long I have been totally and utterly sick of failing to win something.

It's not ok and I don't know what else to say.

[Chrispmartha]

3 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Good question, to which I don't have the answer. But like having any problem in life, you don't get anywhere until you are honest about the situation. 

How many times do you think I have reacted the same as you? All of them, every defeat I've witnessed, either in person or on TV has been met with a defiant "ah well...it's because of reasons X Y and Z, if only this had happened " Repeat ad  nauseam. 

But I think I've reached tipping point. Sorry. 

You’ve reached tipping point? What does that mean, what are you going to do?

We played ###### and list by a drop goal in a WC Semi Final, that’s sport!

[Northern Eel]

3 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

We'd be relieved. But questions about the level of the team and the league here would still be there.

I think part of the problem is that we have so very often not made it over the line in tight situations. If we’d have done that yesterday, we would have had a chance of learning from nearly chucking it all away. 

[Tippytoe]

20 minutes ago, Damien said:

Whilst this may be true the trouble is  McIlorum would have been great for this 5-10 years ago. At his prime he was very underrated. The trouble is he is way off that now.

He seems to be the scapegoat, he didn't pick himself.

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

 

But I think I've reached tipping point. Sorry. 

So what does that mean? What are you gonna do? 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

You’ve reached tipping point? What does that mean, what are you going to do?

We played ###### and list by a drop goal in a WC Semi Final, that’s sport!

Beat me to it. 

Because the answer will probably be nothing. Which is the same as those being criticised for accepting it! 

[The Masked Poster]

10 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

You’ve reached tipping point? What does that mean, what are you going to do?

We played ###### and list by a drop goal in a WC Semi Final, that’s sport!

Yeah. Except it never, ever, ever changes, that's not sport, it's purgatory. And personally, I've had enough. You are free to continue as you see fit. 

[The Masked Poster]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Beat me to it. 

Because the answer will probably be nothing. Which is the same as those being criticised for accepting it! 

The answer is to go back to not following the game. It's probably not going to be difficult. 

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, The Masked Poster said:

Yeah. Except it never, ever, ever changes, that's not sport, it's purgatory. And personally, I've had enough. You are free to continue as you see fit. 

What do you mean ‘had enough’ what are you going to do?

im afraid it is sport. We don’t have a right to win anything.

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

The answer is to go back to not following the game. It's probably not going to be difficult. 

Well thank your choice, seems an odd one but yours to make.

[The Masked Poster]

1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

What do you mean ‘had enough’ what are you going to do?

im afraid it is sport. We don’t have a right to win anything.

Ok bud, as I say you do as you see fit. I know I will 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

The answer is to go back to not following the game. It's probably not going to be difficult. 

That's your prerogative. 

I find it odd that you were so positive 48hrs ago that you bought a ticket for the final before the semi final. And now England lost a game in sudden death, and you're walking away from the sport. 

All the best. 

[The Masked Poster]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

Well thank your choice, seems an odd one but yours to make.

Nothing odd about it mate, I'd say it odder to keep banging your head against the wall thinking something will change but it takes all sorts. 

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Dave T said:

That's your prerogative. 

I find it odd that you were so positive 48hrs ago that you bought a ticket for the final before the semi final. And now England lost a game in sudden death, and you're walking away from the sport. 

All the best. 

It is odd considering one of the England teams can still actually make a WC final.

[The Masked Poster]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

That's your prerogative. 

I find it odd that you were so positive 48hrs ago that you bought a ticket for the final before the semi final. And now England lost a game in sudden death, and you're walking away from the sport. 

All the best. 

It's called realisation. Likewise, all the best.