New Zealand not coming in 2023

[Sports Prophet]

On 01/12/2022 at 17:17, Jughead said:

Exactly, that’s my point. 

Play the game on a national holiday AND Tour De France? That’s so very Rugby League, you’re hired. 

You know what, I love that. Follow the Tour for a fortnight or three weeks if possible, to play evening SL fixtures at venues on end of stage weekends (if suitable) that draws on fans of the tour that want to have a bit of extra carnival fun on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday night.

I'm not lycra enough to known if that's even possible, but if you could extend the carnival atmosphere of another event, especially in France, sounds like a bit of fun and a chance to leverage the power of a worldwide event.

On consecutive weekends, across the world, you could see hundreds of fans in their SL footy team colours, celebrating the end of a tour stage.

Imagine that, a bunch of Rhinos fans and a bunch of Saints fans (or replace either with any other SL club) waving flags in merch around the finish line of a tour stage before a large group head to the local stadium to watch Catalan/Touslouse play a SL match.

Sounds like fun to me.

[Jughead]

11 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

You know what, I love that. Follow the Tour for a fortnight or three weeks if possible, to play evening SL fixtures at venues on end of stage weekends (if suitable) that draws on fans of the tour that want to have a bit of extra carnival fun on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday night.

I'm not lycra enough to known if that's even possible, but if you could extend the carnival atmosphere of another event, especially in France, sounds like a bit of fun and a chance to leverage the power of a worldwide event.

On consecutive weekends, across the world, you could see hundreds of fans in their SL footy team colours, celebrating the end of a tour stage.

Imagine that, a bunch of Rhinos fans and a bunch of Saints fans (or replace either with any other SL club) waving flags in merch around the finish line of a tour stage before a large group head to the local stadium to watch Catalan/Touslouse play a SL match.

Sounds like fun to me.

It sounds awful, I’m sorry. Piggy backing onto another event to try and get some people on the tele in a Wakefield shirt is a horrendous plan. 

[MatthewWoody]

2023 tours/tests should have been decided long time ago. 

If there's a lesson to learn, this is the one. 

By the way, the most rational and concrete idea would be imho a GB tour against whoever wants and has a decent/top test status (PNG comes to mind, but also Tonga and Samoa can be good) and England playing in the Euros. I know a lot of us are against GB (dead brand, etc.) but if this is the only way to give the games in the Euros a test status... If France beat this England side, well next year's mid season's gonna be very interesting. Rivalry's gonna grow. 

If the GB/England tour idea is impossible, ok we concentrate on the Euros (which will be useless from an England point of view but as some said it'll be the chance to add young promising players to the squad and say goodbye to those who shouln't have been in an England test jersey this World Cup) but we sign for the 2024 tests right now. What we can't afford is not playing SH teams this next season and in 2024. It'd be a disaster from every point of view. 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by MatthewWoody

[bamfordsbeans]

On the international front England really are isolated.

There has been a lot of hard luck stories over the last decade or so and who knows how things could have developed with favorable results.

The harsh reality that top level RL for England is not likely to happen until the next World Cup and the priority for the RFL/SL is to try and maintain a full time league. Not very ambitious I know ,but the lost opportunities on and off the pitch over the last few weeks leave us with no alternative. There is no money in the game to help any expansion.

 

[crashmon]

49 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

2023 tours/tests should have been decided long time ago. 

If there's a lesson to learn, this is the one. 

By the way, the most rational and concrete idea would be imho a GB tour against whoever wants and has a decent/top test status (PNG comes to mind, but also Tonga and Samoa can be good) and England playing in the Euros. I know a lot of us are against GB (dead brand, etc.) but if this is the only way to give the games in the Euros a test status... If France beat this England side, well next year's mid season's gonna be very interesting. Rivalry's gonna grow. 

If the GB/England tour idea is impossible, ok we concentrate on the Euros (which will be useless from an England point of view but as some said it'll be the chance to add young promising players to the squad and say goodbye to those who shouln't have been in an England test jersey this World Cup) but we sign for the 2024 tests right now. What we can't afford is not playing SH teams this next season and in 2024. It'd be a disaster from every point of view. 

 

I think if (and its a big if) 2024 tests vs SH sides is possible, its the year before the world cup, and England offer a different type of challenge to say Aus, NZ than Samoa would.  If I was RFL I'd be lobbying hard to get some tests in 2024 in SH even if Aus say no...

But 2023 ship has sailed in terms of the big 4 from a SH perspective. If Eng want to play SH team next year, my focus would be on PNG, I think you have the best chance of success with them.

[MatthewWoody]

Spot on. 

Also, I agree with the user who said these are the effects of that semifinal loss. 

[Jean de Bordeaux]

Finally ... a veritable "Blediscoe" for League !

[JM2010]

I thought the IRL were supposed to be announcing an International calendar?

[ATLANTISMAN]

The reality is Australia and New Zealand have to play the Pacific Nations politically which means the NRL (Australian government will be investing as well) WHY to stop Chinese influence taking hold.

Thats the real reality of the current situation.

Think about it ?

 

P 

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, Jughead said:

It sounds awful, I’m sorry. Piggy backing onto another event to try and get some people on the tele in a Wakefield shirt is a horrendous plan. 

Sorry, maybe Indidnt present it well. 

What I meant was, let’s play an international game of RL where there are plenty of partying people that could be likely to spend another €10 entry fee to continue the party one night on the weekend.

I hope that sounds less horrendous, otherwise you are lost to me on this one.

[Sports Prophet]

On 01/12/2022 at 17:55, Tommygilf said:

 

I think it would have been interesting to see a 4 nations without the Aussies. ENG, NZL and 2 others, perhaps permanently France and/or rotating based on Hemisphere of the host? That said it is tinged with the final problem that the NRL has grown more bellicose in recent years, and has actively undermined at least 2 RL internationals events (Denver Test and the 2021 edition of the world cup), in recent years.

I pretty much agree with all of your post except this bit.

There is a persistent trend on this forum to think the NRL are an undermining authority on the international game.

Any suggestion that the NRL took  a deliberate decision to undermine the 2021 WC is frankly ridiculous. There is simply no rationale behind the theory.

If the NRL were trying to undermine the WC, then why did the Kangaroos participate in 2022? Because they had to? They didn’t “have to” in 2022, anymore than they “had to” in 2021. So that theory does not stack up.

Whether individuals agree with the NRLs validity to skip the 2021 WC due to COVID is simply of no consequence. Nor does the fact that other sports conducted internationals at the same time bare any consequence.

The fact is the NRL saw a highly likely threat to the health of its contracted players. If other organisations felt that the health risk to tens of millions of dollars in playing assets was less than the benefit of participation, then that is down to those organisations and their own risk management.

I dare not think how an Australian RL population still living in lock down would have viewed the NRL, had they committed to 2021 and as a result, dozens of players contracted COVID. The risk was credible and that is all there is to the matter.

[WelshpoolMarauder]

On 01/12/2022 at 13:13, Jughead said:

Wales and France wouldn’t beat Castleford let alone England. 

I know this thread is primarily about England, but from a Welsh perspective - why can’t we play against SL teams if it’s going to help our side develop? 

I’m not saying we shouldn’t play England, I think it’s important that we have that opportunity, and more regular international games with the other countries, but there are other ways to aid playing development.

[Farmduck]

I just checked the RLIF site and they don't seem to have updated the Rankings. I know their general modus operandi was to update them at the end of each month or at the end of a major tournament. Well we've just had both of those and NZ is till on top.

Their points system is also weighted to give more points to major tournament games than to one-off games so why would Samoa still be down at #7? I know Australia hasn't played much over the last few years but they've just had 6 straight wins, including 3 against top 10 competition so, even if they aren't #1 they should have overtaken Tonga and England since the gap wasn't very wide.

https://www.intrl.sport/world-rankings/

[Sports Prophet]

On 01/12/2022 at 21:07, MatthewWoody said:

Wales and France aren't improving simply by playing (and losing a lot) against England. 

Correct. When players improve due to playing experience, that is based on a week to week programme. The club game is the foundation. Internationals are the cherry on top.

[Farmduck]

3 minutes ago, WelshpoolMarauder said:

I know this thread is primarily about England, but from a Welsh perspective - why can’t we play against SL teams if it’s going to help our side develop? 

I’m not saying we shouldn’t play England, I think it’s important that we have that opportunity, and more regular international games with the other countries, but there are other ways to aid playing development.

It might be as simple as finding a gap in the schedule and someone to stake a prize purse. You would have 2 problems that I can see:

- if it was played during some tournament not involving Wales (like a 4N) then you could face an understrength SL team whose best players were in camp with the England team or whose SH players had gone home for the holidays. Any value that might be derived from playing Wakey could be significantly diminished by playing Wakey B.

- it would need to happen mid-season. If it was post season what would be the incentive for the players at the SL team to eat into their holidays?

[Anita Bath]

3 hours ago, Farmduck said:

It might be as simple as finding a gap in the schedule and someone to stake a prize purse. You would have 2 problems that I can see:

- if it was played during some tournament not involving Wales (like a 4N) then you could face an understrength SL team whose best players were in camp with the England team or whose SH players had gone home for the holidays. Any value that might be derived from playing Wakey could be significantly diminished by playing Wakey B.

- it would need to happen mid-season. If it was post season what would be the incentive for the players at the SL team to eat into their holidays?

Who do the welsh players in SL team play for?  Half for each side?

[Farmduck]

39 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

Who do the welsh players in SL team play for?  Half for each side?

If there were enough Welsh players in SL teams for that to be an issue then Wales wouldn't need to consider playing an SL team.

[Harry Stottle]

21 hours ago, Big Picture said:

How on Earth do you expect the kids to consider RL the "gold standard" sport they want to get involved in when it's stuck in smallish, economically disadvantaged towns along the M62 with a mere handful of teams further afield?????  What planet do you live on?

Those small towns have been the providers of most of the players we have produced since 1895, and if you would care to read what I wrote and could absorb it, it is the legacy I blame for the state we are in now it is a culmination of the combined efforts to disregard the amatuers by Oxley, Lindsey, Lewis, Wood and Rimmer.

But let's just put teams in Barcelona, Munich, New York etc and everywhere else you managed to put a pin in a map with your tinpot idea that Big Cities are just sitting waiting with open arms for RL to come along then millions would want to play it.

[Sports Prophet]

On 02/12/2022 at 00:08, NW10LDN said:

Lebanon should be able to travel if the NRL agree an international window. The top tier can be England, Lebanon, France, Ireland.

England will beat all of them but the other three should be competitive.

 

On 02/12/2022 at 00:17, RP London said:

Highlighted the most important word... 

 

Yep RP, an mid season international window from the NRL is a pipe dream if they are not playing themselves.

[Sports Prophet]

On 02/12/2022 at 19:17, Damien said:

Because the children of most of these migrants to Australia play RL and go to schools that play RL. I'd hazard a far smaller proportion go to GPS schools.

RU also has completely different, and stricter, eligibility rules so players can't switch between tier 1 and tier 2.

Additionally in RL these countries are starting from a smaller, and almost non-existent base. A team of quality full time NRL players immediately propels them into the top 5 in RL. RL has essentially 2 full time professional leagues propping up 16 RLWC nations. In RU there's probably a good 10 full time countries, most with far deeper full time player pools than any PI nation. Then there are probably a good few with far more resources than any PI nation beneath that.

It’s apples and pears stuff.

there are plenty of opportunities for juniors to play junior rugby union on a weekend in Sydney. So if the migrants came from ru backgrounds, why isn’t ru blossoming from the migration factor?

I think you are over estimating the strength of schoolboy RL as well. From my experience in Sydney, the organisation of it all (apart from about 16 Christian schools) is deplorable. That may have changed in the last 20 years and I hope it has, although unlikely. I attended one of those 16 Christian schools and we played weekly sport against other Christian schools in our competition (MCC). It wasn’t just footy, it was soccer, basketball all sorts of sports, all against the one school and then another school the following week. Five years ago, MCC competition did not have teams at all ages, varying schools, it was a bit of a mess compared to my playing days.

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those small towns have been the providers of most of the players we have produced since 1895, and if you would care to read what I wrote and could absorb it, it is the legacy I blame for the state we are in now it is a culmination of the combined efforts to disregard the amatuers by Oxley, Lindsey, Lewis, Wood and Rimmer.

But let's just put teams in Barcelona, Munich, New York etc and everywhere else you managed to put a pin in a map with your tinpot idea that Big Cities are just sitting waiting with open arms for RL to come along then millions would want to play it.

Those small towns used to provide enough players, but they don't any more, and unless I'm mistaken that's true even in the towns which have had a club in SL since its inception.  That suggests that for some reason many of the sons and grandsons of the RL players and supporters of yesteryear — across the heartland — don't see RL as the "gold standard" sport they want to be involved in.

The reason why can't be that the changes during the SL era widened the gap between the top tier and the rest of the game, because if that was so the community game wouldn't have declined in Wigan, St Helens and the other places which have always been represented in SL.  The reason for a wholesale decline and shrinkage of the player pool can only be that those sons and grandsons of the RL players and supporters of yesteryear don't see a "gold standard" sport which inspires them, they see something of much lower standard and that doesn't impress them in the era when they can see plenty of genuine big time major pro sports on TV and observe how far ahead of RL they are.  The same old, same old simply isn't good enough for them.

FYI I haven't put any pins in maps, I've thought strategically about cities which have the necessary profile and stature to create a Wow! factor and entice a new audience to check out something new and unique.  I couldn't care less why anyone in that new audience decides to check it out, it's enough even if they're just curious (though I'd plan to give them plenty of other reasons too).  If the presentation of the matches and the product on the field is good, they'll be hooked just like the Torontonians who embraced the Wolfpack were hooked.

And as you're someone who finds present-day RL dull and predictable, I say with confidence that you'd like the product I'd put on the field a lot because it would be simply the best.  Nothing less would do.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Big Picture

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

 

Yep RP, an mid season international window from the NRL is a pipe dream if they are not playing themselves.

I never said it should be held in the mid season.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Those small towns used to provide enough players, but they don't any more, and unless I'm mistaken that's true even in the towns which have had a club in SL since its inception.  That suggests that for some reason many of the sons and grandsons of the RL players and supporters of yesteryear — across the heartland — don't see RL as the "gold standard" sport they want to be involved in.

The reason why can't be that the changes during the SL era widened the gap between the top tier and the rest of the game, because if that was so the community game wouldn't have declined in Wigan, St Helens and the other places which have always been represented in SL.  The reason for a wholesale decline and shrinkage of the player pool can only be that those sons and grandsons of the RL players and supporters of yesteryear don't see a "gold standard" sport which inspires them, they see something of much lower standard and that doesn't impress them in the era when they can see plenty of genuine big time major pro sports on TV and observe how far ahead of RL they are.  The same old, same old simply isn't good enough for them.

FYI I haven't put any pins in maps, I've thought strategically about cities which have the necessary profile and stature to create a Wow! factor and entice a new audience to check out something new and unique.  I couldn't care less why anyone in that new audience decides to check it out, it's enough even if they're just curious (though I'd plan to give them plenty of other reasons too).  If the presentation of the matches and the product on the field is good, they'll be hooked just like the Torontonians who embraced the Wolfpack were hooked.

And as you're someone who finds present-day RL dull and predictable, I say with confidence that you'd like the product I'd put on the field a lot because it would be simply the best.  Nothing less would do.

Have you done!

We are at a culmination of the sports hierarchy not giving two hoots what has been going on in the amatuer game and but for a group of guys in March 1973 headed by Mr Maurice Oldroyd when B.A.R.L.A. was originated when we had less than 150 amatuer clubs and only 30 youth teams in existance we may not have a game today, they started with £25 which was collected at the meeting when the organisation was born, the RFL at the time actually did not accept the organisation and at a meeting voted 29 to 1 against officially recognising them.

When I said the authorities should have made it the gold standard, I was talking about years ago when there was the opportunity to do so when there was not the distractions and alternatives that are around today, if they had reacted way back then in a positve way the game could have been in a far healthier position than it is today.

 

[Big Picture]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you done!

We are at a culmination of the sports hierarchy not giving two hoots what has been going on in the amatuer game and but for a group of guys in March 1973 headed by Mr Maurice Oldroyd when B.A.R.L.A. was originated when we had less than 150 amatuer clubs and only 30 youth teams in existance we may not have a game today, they started with £25 which was collected at the meeting when the organisation was born, the RFL at the time actually did not accept the organisation and at a meeting voted 29 to 1 against officially recognising them.

When I said the authorities should have made it the gold standard, I was talking about years ago when there was the opportunity to do so when there was not the distractions and alternatives that are around today, if they had reacted way back then in a positve way the game could have been in a far healthier position than it is today.

 

The authorities couldn't have made it the gold standard back then though, any more than the current lot can.  Even before then they had their hands full dealing with clubs getting into financial trouble (e.g. Bradford going bust in the 1963-64 season).

The plain truth is that the game's small footprint was always too small for it ever to be made the gold standard sport the youth would want to be involved in on that foundation.

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, NW10LDN said:

I never said it should be held in the mid season.

Pardon, my mistake. In which case, there is no “if” about it, no one will stop Lebanon playing internationals at the end of season.