The History Thread

[Futtocks]

Just now, gingerjon said:

No one's going back to the George in 1895, then?

Ooh, good call!

Although it probably wasn't the most thrilling event - if I want to experience a bunch of middle-aged Northerners being grumpy and dissatisfied in a Rugby context, I'll click on any of this weekend's match threads.

[gingerjon]

Listen to a 9,000 year old flute.

Context: https://www.openculture.com/2017/01/hear-a-9000-year-old-flute-the-worlds-oldest-playable-instrument-get-played-again.html

Video:

 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

No one's going back to the George in 1895, then?

Every time I walk out of Huddersfield train station I feel like I've been transported back to the Victorian era anyway. No need for a time machine..!

[The Hallucinating Goose]

Talking about sporting events, I've mentioned on this forum a lot in the past my love of and passion for snooker and it would be fascinating to be transported to that army barracks in India back in the time of the British Raj when a bunch of army officers were playing billiards and decided to throw a few different coloured balls on the table to jazz it up a bit, thus inventing snooker. 

[Futtocks]

Currently on sale (in Kindle format) for 99p, Simon Sebag Montefiore's 1,200+ page history of humanity, The World: A Family History.

At that price, even if it turns out you absolutely hate every word of it, it's no great loss.

[The Masked Poster]

On 24/03/2023 at 22:55, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Talking about sporting events, I've mentioned on this forum a lot in the past my love of and passion for snooker and it would be fascinating to be transported to that army barracks in India back in the time of the British Raj when a bunch of army officers were playing billiards and decided to throw a few different coloured balls on the table to jazz it up a bit, thus inventing snooker. 

I used to see billiard tables in pubs but can't remember the last time I saw a billiard table anywhere. Is it still a thing? 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

I used to see billiard tables in pubs but can't remember the last time I saw a billiard table anywhere. Is it still a thing? 

Yeah, people still play billiards it's just nowhere near as big as snooker. A few pro snooker players have played billiards in the past. The world governing body for the sports is the WPBSA which is the World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association. 

[Futtocks]

2 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Yeah, people still play billiards it's just nowhere near as big as snooker. A few pro snooker players have played billiards in the past. The world governing body for the sports is the WPBSA which is the World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association. 

I remember a hotel in Wales that had a Bar Billiards table, and that was many years ago. The last time I saw a proper Billiards table - I can't even remember.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

I've been contemplating why thousands of years ago humans decided to base their entire society around the trading of gold and silver. Why gold and silver? Why not tin or lead or some other such metal? Why not even a rock or a particular kind of plant or animal? It really makes me wonder what it was about these two metals in particular that meant that people would allow the desire to accumulate them to rule their lives. Why base our economic system around these metals? They are only worth more than other metals because we say they are. 

I'm curious as to what others think about the development of human society's economic system and ultimately where its absolute origins lie. 

[Bearman]

12 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I've been contemplating why thousands of years ago humans decided to base their entire society around the trading of gold and silver. Why gold and silver? Why not tin or lead or some other such metal? Why not even a rock or a particular kind of plant or animal? It really makes me wonder what it was about these two metals in particular that meant that people would allow the desire to accumulate them to rule their lives. Why base our economic system around these metals? They are only worth more than other metals because we say they are. 

I'm curious as to what otherthink about the development of human society's economic system and ultimately where its absolute origins lie.

Gold is a no brainer

It's rare, its easily worked and it does not rust away

[Kayakman]

30 minutes ago, Bearman said:

Gold is a no brainer

It's rare, its easily worked and it does not rust away

You forgot one of the big ones old fella...many people are sexually attracted to it.  Gold does weird things to folks...as a young fella I worked in  mining drill core library and these old timers would bring in buckets of rocks and drill core for me to test for gold (I've done a little prospecting myself).   They would never want to tell me even the general areas that the sample was from....otherwise trusting people would become wary.  The odd time I would have an old dirty smelly prospector come in with lots of gold in his samples....he would have the gold fever...it changes people before your eyes...weird.

[gingerjon]

42 minutes ago, Bearman said:

Gold is a no brainer

It's rare, its easily worked and it does not rust away

Rare but not too rare is the wording I've seen used. Also, I believe (not clever enough to know) that it was hard to fake back in the day and not easily mistaken for anything else.

[JonM]

Silver and gold are scarce but not too scarce. Also stable, portable, non-toxic. 

It's also not too hard to extract (Platinum extraction is beyond stone age people).Relatively low melting point, so easy to turn into coins, ingots, bars, decorative items or jewellery. Your gold figurine can be created in 1000 BC and show up in a museum 3000 years later and be unchanged. Silver tarnishes slowly in air, gold doesn't.

Obviously both of them have some actual industrial value these days. Gold was the default choice for the tiny bond wires inside silicon chip packages, for example.

 

[Padge]

On 30/03/2023 at 12:16, JonM said:

Silver and gold are scarce but not too scarce. Also stable, portable, non-toxic. 

It's also not too hard to extract (Platinum extraction is beyond stone age people).Relatively low melting point, so easy to turn into coins, ingots, bars, decorative items or jewellery. Your gold figurine can be created in 1000 BC and show up in a museum 3000 years later and be unchanged. Silver tarnishes slowly in air, gold doesn't.

Obviously both of them have some actual industrial value these days. Gold was the default choice for the tiny bond wires inside silicon chip packages, for example.

 

Also on solder pads on circuit boards.

[Padge]

Crossing The Rubicon

To make a decision with irreversible consequences – in other words, to go past the point of no return.

It refers to Julius Ceaser who in 49 BC made a decision that changed ancient Rome forever.

Ceaser at the time had been a successful governor of the Roman province of Gaul, Rome's leaders feared Caesar’s growing power, the Senate ordered him to disband his powerful legions and return to Rome without them.

Caesar marched a single legion to the border between Gaul and Italy, a border marked by a small river, The Rubicon.

Ceaser knew that to go further, with his legion, had been forbidden. In the eyes of Rome, crossing the river with the legion would make Ceaser an enemy of the state, he decided to cross the Rubicon with his legion, thus creating a civil war. It was also at this point that Caesar also said the well known quote, “The die is cast.”

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Padge

[tonyXIII]

Another thing about gold is that it can be found just lying around on the ground, or 'native' as it is described, though less so now than in the past. Because of this easily-found nature and its resistance to tarnishing, it was perfect for ancient people. It could be found native, it did not require difficult extraction techniques, it was relatively easy to work with, it kept its shine forever and yet it was quite rare. Perfect! And pretty much unique among metals. It still is.

[OnStrike]

On 20/03/2023 at 23:08, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Now there's a question, which event in history would you most like to be witness to? 

Well apart from the George in 1895, St Petersburg/Petrograd in 1917 would definitely top my list.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

I've been thinking about industrial/technological revolutions and determining when the most significant revolutions indeed were due to the fact I think we can say we are currently in the middle of a massive technological revolution with the incredible advancement in information technology over the last 20 years or so. 

Obviously we all know about the industrial revolution of the Georgian and Victorian eras but I was thinking whether this was the most significant period of mass technological advancement. Manufacturing massively evolved during this period of course and most importantly how we produced and consumed goods as well, moving away from home produced goods to purchasing mass produced goods. 

Arguably though a more important period of technological evolution was Europe's move away from hand to hand and melee based combat involving swords to gunpowder based weaponry and the development of firearms which we saw in the 16th century. It was these weapons that allowed European nations to conquer huge swathes of the Earth and thus open our markets up to mass imported goods which would allow individuals to accumulate huge fortunes that were exclusive to only royalty in the past. These fortunes would thus be invested in new technologies and manufacturing techniques to enable the industrial revolution. 

What other periods in history do you see as significant to the advancement in industry/technology? 

[Bearman]

4 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I've been thinking about industrial/technological revolutions and determining when the most significant revolutions indeed were due to the fact I think we can say we are currently in the middle of a massive technological revolution with the incredible advancement in information technology over the last 20 years or so. 

Obviously we all know about the industrial revolution of the Georgian and Victorian eras but I was thinking whether this was the most significant period of mass technological advancement. Manufacturing massively evolved during this period of course and most importantly how we produced and consumed goods as well, moving away from home produced goods to purchasing mass produced goods. 

Arguably though a more important period of technological evolution was Europe's move away from hand to hand and melee based combat involving swords to gunpowder based weaponry and the development of firearms which we saw in the 16th century. It was these weapons that allowed European nations to conquer huge swathes of the Earth and thus open our markets up to mass imported goods which would allow individuals to accumulate huge fortunes that were exclusive to only royalty in the past. These fortunes would thus be invested in new technologies and manufacturing techniques to enable the industrial revolution. 

What other periods in history do you see as significant to the advancement in industry/technology? 

I often think of the 15 years between 1955 and 1970.

In 1955 we had just got out of rationing. In the following15 years once only dreamt about items became common place.

Almost every household got..

Cars,Tv's, central heating, telephones, washing machines and fridges. Lots of houses were converted to bring in outdoor lavs.

 

 

[Futtocks]

Remember how ubiquitous the standard text "please allow 28 days for delivery" was until relatively recently? And how often you really would have to wait 'til almost the limit of that lazy timescale for your purchase?

My mother started a company in the early Seventies and was one of the first that guaranteed despatch a.s.a.p. - same day as receipt of order, where possible.

Then Amazon came along and everyone had to up their game or go to the wall. Now I can order something and have it delivered to my front door on the same day, in some cases.

That is a revolution.

[gingerjon]

31 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Remember how ubiquitous the standard text "please allow 28 days for delivery" was until relatively recently? And how often you really would have to wait 'til almost the limit of that lazy timescale for your purchase?

My mother started a company in the early Seventies and was one of the first that guaranteed despatch a.s.a.p. - same day as receipt of order, where possible.

Then Amazon came along and everyone had to up their game or go to the wall. Now I can order something and have it delivered to my front door on the same day, in some cases.

That is a revolution.

Following a visit to Iceland in December, I'm a little bit obsessed with the place so...

A month or so ago, I was virtually driving along a road in east Iceland, having heard about a specific area when doing an online course, when I saw an intriguing road sign but the virtual car turned the other way.

So I googled the words on the sign.

That took me to an artist I'd never heard of before and the installation that the roadsign had been for.

I then used Google Streetmap to drive myself past the installation and look over it.

Not sure that any of that would have been possible even fifteen years ago.

[OnStrike]

On 29/03/2023 at 22:55, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I've been contemplating why thousands of years ago humans decided to base their entire society around the trading of gold and silver. Why gold and silver? Why not tin or lead or some other such metal? Why not even a rock or a particular kind of plant or animal? It really makes me wonder what it was about these two metals in particular that meant that people would allow the desire to accumulate them to rule their lives. Why base our economic system around these metals? They are only worth more than other metals because we say they are. 

I'm curious as to what others think about the development of human society's economic system and ultimately where its absolute origins lie. 

I think I read before all the gold ever mined in history could all fit into an Olympic sized swimming pool 

[Oxford]

20 minutes ago, OnStrike said:

I think I read before all the gold ever mined in history could all fit into an Olympic sized swimming pool 

That sort of sums up alot about the perception of things and history/historians in particular, A statement that sounds wonderful and at least vaguely interesting but it will never exactly be tested and proven wrong, will it?

[The Hallucinating Goose]

52 minutes ago, Oxford said:

That sort of sums up alot about the perception of things and history/historians in particular, A statement that sounds wonderful and at least vaguely interesting but it will never exactly be tested and proven wrong, will it?

This is essentially the point about so much history before the mass population was literate.

We have written records of events in the past but they tended to be documented by the aristocracy who would have an agenda and present the events from their side of the argument as propaganda or written by monks who would not have witnessed the events first hand and were just writing down what they had essentially been told to write. So much history as we know it will be very warped and nothing like what actually happened. 

Another example of this is paintings of historical figures. It is known that the subjects of these paintings told the painters how to portray them and thus will look far more attractive and presentable in the paintings than how they actually were in reality. 

[Farmduck]

1 hour ago, OnStrike said:

I think I read before all the gold ever mined in history could all fit into an Olympic sized swimming pool 

I don't think that's correct but I couldn't be bothered doing the calculations until after the NRL finishes. It's not that far out though. You just need to calculate the area of an Olympic swimming pool - and allow for the fact that there is no official depth, although 2m would be a reasonable quess