The History Thread

[Padge]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Never met an Edward, Harold or Carl I presume? Never been to a place with "ham" or "field" at the end of it's name? Indeed you can't have been many RL towns and cities, which I am surprised at. 

What you describe is very accurate to describe what happened to the Celts of (most of) England since 410 yes, but there is a reason the English of the 11th Century didn't become the Normans. I can see an argument that "English" culture is the fusion of an Anglo-Saxon populace with a Norman elite, to make it distinct from the form of that existed before 1066. So your Guillames and Robèrts become William and Bob

The Norman conquest was barely more impactful on English society as the Danelaw or the North Sea Empire had been, or the Angevin Empire that followed it. A feudal society existed beforehand, just as one existed afterwards. 1066 is neat because there is a more linear path with what came afterwards and it serves as a nice bookend to segway into teaching History, but the changes are often overstated because of that. Every other society within the cultural reach of Medieval France and the Holy Roman Empire adopted some of its traits and traditions, there's no reason to think England under Harold Godwinson or Harald Hardrada takes a significantly different path in that respect.

People go on about castles, churches, monasteries and the names of things like the Anglo-Saxon and Norse rulers of the previous 2 centuries hadn't done these things. The system of government in England was exceptionally sophisticated compared to others in Europe, all the Normans did was plonk their people in charge of the existing administration and (re)introduce Latin as the legal and administrative text.

1066 being revered as some sort of huge change is part of a long running misconception that before that we were in the Dark Ages and everything was bad. Nothing could be further from the truth. Likewise it is a focus of history almost entirely on the rulers of the land, which doesn't speak for society at large.

Just one point, the Norman feudal system was completely different to the Anglo-Saxon one which they replaced quick sticks, they are not comparable systems of excersing power and distributing wealth.

[Bostik Bailey]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

That's all fair but I'd argue runs the risk of minimising 1066 and its aftermath which, obviously, was a pretty big deal and, sort of the point I'm getting at anyway, still going with the myth that you can draw a straight line between, say, the culture and world of Beowulf and get to the English nation of today (or, in the myth makers' usual nostalgia fest, the English nation of about 1950 before nasty multiculturalism turned up).

I'd also never say or suggest that the Dark Ages were dark. What they were, and are, is a mostly alien culture to today's though.

You only have to look the the English language to appreciate how multicultural this country has always been.

The English language has many worlds for the same thing, with origins in Latin, Germanic, Nose, French, Urdu and many other languages that English has assimilated (strangely there aren’t many British words in English)

english has a richness of words that other pure languages don’t possess.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Bostik Bailey said:

You only have to look the the English language to appreciate how multicultural this country has always been.

Completely agree.

[Padge]

5 minutes ago, Bostik Bailey said:

You only have to look the the English language to appreciate how multicultural this country has always been.

The English language has many worlds for the same thing, with origins in Latin, Germanic, Nose, French, Urdu and many other languages that English has assimilated (strangely there aren’t many British words in English)

english has a richness of words that other pure languages don’t possess.

English isn't as rigid as say French, it grows and changes from bottom up, academics do not control the English language they are merely lexographers of usage. That means anybody can introduce any new word and if there is a record of it then it becomes part of the language.

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

I think I once read or heard somewhere that when the Normans imposed Norman French as the language of government, law and commerce, they realised that it was important to be linguistically watertight and so some phrases, based on Norman French and its Teutonic predecessor in England, came into use to ensure that nobody could say that they hadn't understood what was meant.

I think, if that is true, those phrases would include the likes of 'let and hindrance' and 'null and void'.  In royal forest law, the court of Swainmote and Attachment might possibly be another example, though I am not too sure and am guessing on that a bit.  Down here in the New Forest, that court was succeeded by the Verderers' Court, which continues to meet.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I think I once read or heard somewhere that when the Normans imposed Norman French as the language of government, law and commerce, they realised that it was important to be linguistically watertight and so some phrases, based on Norman French and its Teutonic predecessor in England, came into use to ensure that nobody could say that they hadn't understood what was meant.

I think, if that is true, those phrases would include the likes of 'let and hindrance' and 'null and void'.  In royal forest law, the court of Swainmote and Attachment might possibly be another example, though I am not too sure and am guessing on that a bit.  Down here in the New Forest, that court was succeeded by the Verderers' Court, which continues to meet.

Curiously, I just saw a thread on twitter about some zombie words that only really exist as a word (or both words) in such phrases. "Kith and kin", "###### and span", "aid and abet" were examples.

[gingerjon]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Curiously, I just saw a thread on twitter about some zombie words that only really exist as a word (or both words) in such phrases. "Kith and kin", "###### and span", "aid and abet" were examples.

And interesting that the sweary filter sees offence in the word hashed out that nobody that I could see noted on Twitter.

[Maximus Decimus]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Curiously, I just saw a thread on twitter about some zombie words that only really exist as a word (or both words) in such phrases. "Kith and kin", "###### and span", "aid and abet" were examples.

There are a number of words which are basically a result of a misunderstanding of the spoken language.

The main example I'm thinking of is 'a notch on the bedpost' which was actually 'an otch.' There are a couple of others which my memory cannot hold.

[JohnM]

On 24/12/2022 at 23:01, Midlands hobo said:

Templars is a big one for me. The ultimate unsolvable riddle.

This is the place for you. Went there 20 years ago....quite a remarkable place.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Couvertoirade

[Futtocks]

On 24/12/2022 at 23:01, Midlands hobo said:

Templars is a big one for me. The ultimate unsolvable riddle.

Hint: it was Roger Moore all along.

[Exiled Townie]

 Roland the Farter (known in contemporary records as Roland Le Fartere and Roland Le Petour) was a medieval flatulist who lived in twelfth-century England. Roland the Farter's given name was George, but he changed it as Roland sounded more regal. He was given Hemingstone Manor in Suffolk and 30 acres  of land in return for his services as 'Royal Farter' for King Henry ll. His 'piece de resistance' that he was obliged to perform each year at the kings Christmas feast was "Unum saltum et siffletum et unum bumbulum",  a dance that ended with “one jump, one whistle, and one fart” executed simultaneously.

[Futtocks]

5 minutes ago, Exiled Townie said:

 Roland the Farter (known in contemporary records as Roland Le Fartere and Roland Le Petour) was a medieval flatulist who lived in twelfth-century England. Roland the Farter's given name was George, but he changed it as Roland sounded more regal. He was given Hemingstone Manor in Suffolk and 30 acres  of land in return for his services as 'Royal Farter' for King Henry ll. His 'piece de resistance' that he was obliged to perform each year at the kings Christmas feast was "Unum saltum et siffletum et unum bumbulum",  a dance that ended with “one jump, one whistle, and one fart” executed simultaneously.

A very early predecessor of Joseph "Le Petomane" Pujol!

https://www.weirdhistorian.com/le-petomane/

Edited January 4, 2023 by Futtocks

[Wolford6]

Scheidt ... the ancient teutonic word for "a narrow strip of grass"

[Tommygilf]

Oliver Cromwell was nearly killed as an infant by his parents pet monkey

 

[JonM]

On 01/01/2023 at 11:20, Padge said:

Just one point, the Norman feudal system was completely different to the Anglo-Saxon one which they replaced quick sticks, they are not comparable systems of excersing power and distributing wealth.

I've just finished "The Anglo Saxons" by Marc Morris, a good synthesis of the latest historical thinking on this period of English history. One of the points he makes is exactly this one about the very different nature of the feudal system the Normans introduced, in particular the fact that approximately 30% of the pre-conquest population were slaves and that slave trading was commonplace. On the one hand, the Normans put an immediate stop to that, on the other, he argues that the Normans committed genocide in the North of England, killing most of the population..

[The Hallucinating Goose]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64162799

This is a very interesting read. 

Academics, with the help of a random bloke from London, think they have discovered the reasons for hunter-gatherers painting on cave walls. 

[Oxford]

On 01/01/2023 at 11:20, Padge said:

Just one point, the Norman feudal system was completely different to the Anglo-Saxon one which they replaced quick sticks, they are not comparable systems of excersing power and distributing wealth.

Yes one of those counted their money entirely in French and the other in something that sounded a bit like Frisian and comparing chalk and cheese in anyone's history curriculum.

 

[Padge]

19 hours ago, JonM said:

I've just finished "The Anglo Saxons" by Marc Morris, a good synthesis of the latest historical thinking on this period of English history. One of the points he makes is exactly this one about the very different nature of the feudal system the Normans introduced, in particular the fact that approximately 30% of the pre-conquest population were slaves and that slave trading was commonplace. On the one hand, the Normans put an immediate stop to that, on the other, he argues that the Normans committed genocide in the North of England, killing most of the population..

On your last point, it doesn't need to be arued, the harrying of the North was carried out by the Norman's. They paid the Danes handsomely to go home and not get involved and then set about murdering the Saxon population, burning buildings destroying farms, burning crops and killing live stock. The one's not murdered directly were left to starve.

[hw88]

2 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64162799

This is a very interesting read. 

Academics, with the help of a random bloke from London, think they have discovered the reasons for hunter-gatherers painting on cave walls. 

Or they could just have liked painting animals!

[Padge]

2 hours ago, hw88 said:

Or they could just have liked painting animals!

Have you read the article, it isn't about the animals, its about a calendar. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

52 minutes ago, Padge said:

Have you read the article, it isn't about the animals, its about a calendar. 

Correct, it's a very exciting development in our understanding of human time keeping. This discovery means humans were tracking dates and time millenia before we thought they were. 

Essentially it seems that they were drawing particular species of animal and keeping a tally of months that corresponded with the animals' gestation period in correspondence to lunar cycles. By doing this they could, firstly keep track of the passing days and months and use it as a calendar similar to what we know these days, but also to keep track of when certain species would be pregnant and so not hunt those ones and risk depleting the species population. This shows an incredible knowledge of zoology and more widely biology that we never thought our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have. 

It's quite simply fascinating and I must say prehistory is not something I tend to get too excited about. 

[Padge]

5 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Correct, it's a very exciting development in our understanding of human time keeping. This discovery means humans were tracking dates and time millenia before we thought they were. 

Essentially it seems that they were drawing particular species of animal and keeping a tally of months that corresponded with the animals' gestation period in correspondence to lunar cycles. By doing this they could, firstly keep track of the passing days and months and use it as a calendar similar to what we know these days, but also to keep track of when certain species would be pregnant and so not hunt those ones and risk depleting the species population. This shows an incredible knowledge of zoology and more widely biology that we never thought our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have. 

It's quite simply fascinating and I must say prehistory is not something I tend to get too excited about. 

A thought I had was that it could also be about migration cycles, when and where the animals appear.

I am fascinated by pre-history.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

3 minutes ago, Padge said:

A thought I had was that it could also be about migration cycles, when and where the animals appear.

I am fascinated by pre-history.

Yeah that's a great thought. A case of the animal drawn appears in that area in whichever month is marked next to the picture.

In many ways that would explain the hunter-gatherer nature, in that they moved from place to place because they knew certain species would be in certain places at certain times of the year. 

And they'd draw the pictures in the caves so they wouldn't be destroyed by the weather over the years. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

Never knew much about Chinese piracy and particularly not women ones..until I listened to this today.

Ching Shi was some gal

 

 

 

 

[gingerjon]

10 hours ago, hw88 said:

Or they could just have liked painting animals!

I know you're being flippant but this is a reason *for so much prehistory (in particular) analysis* that I think more people should consider more of the time.