IMG Grading Unveiled

[Chrispmartha]

9 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

. I'm really not even sure I would celebrate getting promoted via a points system which again circling back makes me less inclined to put my money in to a club through sponsorship or at the turnstyles.

I don’t get this, if your club did get promoted via a points system it would mean your club is being run successfully and would have good foundations to grow.

Throwing in money to buy a team just to get promoted is a very risky strategy, even though it might feel great for that one year when promotion happens.

 

look at the comments from Fevs owner, he knows its not sustainable long term

Edited March 10, 2023 by Chrispmartha

[MattSantos]

Performance scores. Ave score over the last 3 years based on league position (not playoffs - other than winning it of course)

Team	Ave
Saints	4.76
Wigan	3.94
Catalans	3.78
Leeds	3.64
Warrington	3.49
Huddersfield	3.41
Cas	3.30
Hull	3.27
Hull KR	3.19
Salford	3.16
Wakey	3.01
Leigh	2.91
Toulouse	2.86
Fev	2.62
Halifax	2.46
Batley	2.35
Bradford	2.24
Whitehaven	2.13
York	1.91
Widnes	1.91
London	1.91

 

 

[dboy]

40 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I agree they’re a basket case, but they’ve still won super league 4 times, won the pre-SL title a number of times, won many challenge cups and been world champions three times this century. Not to mention they still get a lot of column inches, probably more than any other non-SL club. When Swinton are averaging 4k and have done all that I’ll say they’re as big as Bradford  

 

They do get a lot column inches - "we used to be big", "Odslum is iconic", "Brian Noble says Bulls should be in SL", "did we mention we used to be big", "we're building a superdome," "we've gone bust again"...

Ad infinitum. 

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

That’s right 

It would have been much better if “promotion” was done under a more balanced model back then too 

 

 

But you gladly accepted it then.

Funny how we change as we get more comfortable, I know a guy who wouldn't 'piff' on anything to do with the Tory party, he was fortunate and did good in life and now he wouldn't 'piff' on Labour.

[RP London]

7 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Performance scores. Ave score over the last 3 years based on league position (not playoffs - other than winning it of course)

Team	Ave
Saints	4.76
Wigan	3.94
Catalans	3.78
Leeds	3.64
Warrington	3.49
Huddersfield	3.41
Cas	3.30
Hull	3.27
Hull KR	3.19
Salford	3.16
Wakey	3.01
Leigh	2.91
Toulouse	2.86
Fev	2.62
Halifax	2.46
Batley	2.35
Bradford	2.24
Whitehaven	2.13
York	1.91
Widnes	1.91
London	1.91

 

 

Sheffield not in?

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

I think it depends on who you support  If you support one of the teams likely to benefit from going back to how things were during the framing the future days, you will be happy, it is a visionary revolution that the game has so desperately needed for years. If you support a team not likely to benefit from going back to a system that is likely to be as transparent as mud, you will think it is just the same ideas that were tried and failed and we're making the same mistakes all over again.

I don't think my team will remotely benefit from this and I think it's a good plan.

[The Blues Ox]

6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I don’t get this, if your club did get promoted via a points system it would mean your club is being run successfully and would have good foundations to grow.

Honestly I do not care, I just go to watch the rugby and like I say, to me success is winning on the pitch. The club been run succesfully won't get you that high that comes from watching your team win games/finals. I wouldn't die happy knowing that we finished 10th in SL every year but at least we were well run. That is just how I see sport.

[Harry Stottle]

38 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

York are never going to average 4K in champ. Leigh who are now rolling and last proper time in SL got 6k average got half of that in Champ. 

The crowds grow by having the opportunity to get to SL play the bigger teams then market that. Not by York playing Batley and Swinton.

Leigh had 6.500K average in '17, but I get your point to the extent that St Helens may bring more speccies to the LSV tonight than Leigh got in some games lat home last season.

[The Blues Ox]

10 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Performance scores. Ave score over the last 3 years based on league position (not playoffs - other than winning it of course)

Team	Ave
Saints	4.76
Wigan	3.94
Catalans	3.78
Leeds	3.64
Warrington	3.49
Huddersfield	3.41
Cas	3.30
Hull	3.27
Hull KR	3.19
Salford	3.16
Wakey	3.01
Leigh	2.91
Toulouse	2.86
Fev	2.62
Halifax	2.46
Batley	2.35
Bradford	2.24
Whitehaven	2.13
York	1.91
Widnes	1.91
London	1.91

 

 

Shows how much of a one sided bore fest SL is.

[OdsalBull]

46 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’m not debating that. Someone said Bradford aren’t the biggest club outside SL and I asked who he thought were, as I think Bradford are. 

They are it's a fact

[MattSantos]

3 minutes ago, RP London said:

Sheffield not in?

Poor copy pasting.

1.58 same as Newcastle and Dewsbury

[dboy]

The document we are discussing is titled "Grading Criteria". It deals with, solely, how clubs achieve an A, B, C grade.

I can see why Batley et al are worried, as maybe there is an end to P&R at SL level, as separately, IMG have said...

IMG's Recommendations

• Participation in the top tier to be based on a range of on and off field measures, delivered through a club grading system with the aim of supporting financial sustainability and encouraging investment into clubs. ‘Category A’ clubs will be guaranteed participation in the top tier whilst ‘Category B’ clubs will be re-assessed annually with the highest-ranking clubs occupying the remaining slots in the top tier. Promotion and relegation will continue on the field of play between the second and third tiers with tier two increasingly filled with strong Category B Clubs.

[Harry Stottle]

38 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Theres absolutely no reason York cant increase the fan base in the championship it just takes some hard work, effort and marketing, and yes of course money

Hi Chris, Leigh had all those things in abundance last season but the fans still did not turn up in numbers, and they could not have done any better on the field of play, why do you think that is? 

[JohnM]

9 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Im not going to lie but as a fan of a championship team the second promotion and relegation is taken away I lose a little bit of interest and probably decide to watch less games because I judge overall success in sport as winning on the field. I won't be the only person who feels like this and its hard to market a competition that people are going to pay to watch where success is judged more off the field. I know my team has very little chance of gaining promotion as it stands at the moment but the hope is there that I may one day get to celebrate our success winning a grand final and gaining promotion. I'm really not even sure I would celebrate getting promoted via a points system which again circling back makes me less inclined to put my money in to a club through sponsorship or at the turnstyles.

That's  not how I see, though.  My interpretation is that the various grading pillars illustrate what a club must do in order to  be commercially strong enough to afford a better squad, against the competition from other clubs, thus raising the standard of all clubs. The top clubs will not have an easy ride as it will be tougher for them to stay at the top.  Equally, it will be tough for the lower clubs to improve but they have more scope to improve.  

That's how "promotion" will be achieved. "Eligible to participate in the top-tier only when spaces are available."

The spaces are created if any SuperLeague clubs fall behind the rest, creating opportunities  for others to replace  them.

[Harry Stottle]

39 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Because the league isn’t meaningless.

 

No disrespect, but you have never been there with your team.

[Archie Gordon]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Chris, Leigh had all those things in abundance last season but the fans still did not turn up in numbers, and they could not have done any better on the field of play, why do you think that is? 

I think this is a good point.

If Leigh (2022) score very differently to Leigh (2023) on these criteria, then the criteria aren't much use.

[Dunbar]

23 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

I think it depends on who you support  If you support one of the teams likely to benefit from going back to how things were during the framing the future days, you will be happy, it is a visionary revolution that the game has so desperately needed for years. If you support a team not likely to benefit from going back to a system that is likely to be as transparent as mud, you will think it is just the same ideas that were tried and failed and we're making the same mistakes all over again.

I don't have a team (any more).

I want the game to thrive domestically and internationally.

I want to see the game expand at the grass roots level here in the UK and globally.

And I want teams that have connections with their communities and their fans for generations to see a viable and ambitious future.

So not much.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But you gladly accepted it then.

Funny how we change as we get more comfortable, I know a guy who wouldn't 'piff' on anything to do with the Tory party, he was fortunate and did good in life and now he wouldn't 'piff' on Labour.

I've long believed in the NRL model of a semi-closed league with new clubs joining by addition as it grows. So tough mate, it is what it is, you won't get a charge of hypocrisy to stick to me. Sorry.

Anyone sad enough can probably use the search function to find relevant statements from long before 2006 on here. 

[Chrispmartha]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Chris, Leigh had all those things in abundance last season but the fans still did not turn up in numbers, and they could not have done any better on the field of play, why do you think that is? 

Because I understand there is probably a ceiling for attendances whilst playing in the champ, playing in SL will mean clubs can increase attendances.

My point is where does it say that the league the club currently play in isn’t taken in to account?

Do you think York has hit their ceiling in the championship attendance wise?

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Im not going to lie but as a fan of a championship team the second promotion and relegation is taken away I lose a little bit of interest and probably decide to watch less games because I judge overall success in sport as winning on the field. I won't be the only person who feels like this and its hard to market a competition that people are going to pay to watch where success is judged more off the field. I know my team has very little chance of gaining promotion as it stands at the moment but the hope is there that I may one day get to celebrate our success winning a grand final and gaining promotion. I'm really not even sure I would celebrate getting promoted via a points system which again circling back makes me less inclined to put my money in to a club through sponsorship or at the turnstyles.

I totally agree with that Oxy, and if my team gains enough points in the grading system and Relegation is no longer there or at least promotion is not attainable - when we recieve clarification if a SL B Carry's more weight than a Championship B - I will not be attending games when the result doesn't matter, now then if more people think like thee and me that will throw the 'fandom' category up into the air.

[Harry Stottle]

27 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Performance scores. Ave score over the last 3 years based on league position (not playoffs - other than winning it of course)

Team	Ave
Saints	4.76
Wigan	3.94
Catalans	3.78
Leeds	3.64
Warrington	3.49
Huddersfield	3.41
Cas	3.30
Hull	3.27
Hull KR	3.19
Salford	3.16
Wakey	3.01
Leigh	2.91
Toulouse	2.86
Fev	2.62
Halifax	2.46
Batley	2.35
Bradford	2.24
Whitehaven	2.13
York	1.91
Widnes	1.91
London	1.91

 

 

They won't change much when these figures are meaningfull at the end of '24, 

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I totally agree with that Oxy, and if my team gains enough points in the grading system and Relegation is no longer there or at least promotion is not attainable - when we recieve clarification if a SL B Carry's more weight than a Championship B - I will not be attending games when the result doesn't matter, now then if more people think like thee and me that will throw the 'fandom' category up into the air.

I think, to be honest, and don't take this too harshly, but I reckon the RFL, by working with IMG and trying to adopt this proposal, are hoping to grow support amongst people who don't even know what "thee and me" means.

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I totally agree with that Oxy, and if my team gains enough points in the grading system and Relegation is no longer there or at least promotion is not attainable - when we recieve clarification if a SL B Carry's more weight than a Championship B - I will not be attending games when the result doesn't matter, now then if more people think like thee and me that will throw the 'fandom' category up into the air.

There will be games every year even under this current system where the result doesn’t matter.

[Pulga]

1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

IMG aren't daft, the market value of niche sports like ours in declining in TV land. The linear broadcasters just aren't generating the revenue to sustain it anymore. 

I wonder why that the case in England but the opposite in Australia. They're the same sports.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No disrespect, but you have never been there with your team.

I have. For years. I clearly remember how I enjoyed the season where we made the Northern Rail Cup final, even though we lost it, more than ones where we finished near the bottom of the league. I loved the season where we won the Silk Cup Plate at Wembley. I enjoy sport for the sport. I prefer coming 3rd to 7th. I don't need promotion as my only be-all and end-all.

Otherwise, why does anyone go to watch Dewsbury, or Rochdale, or whoever these days? There's so much more to it than that.