Attendance thread

[Guest]

The RFL must be praying London make the 1895 final to sell Wembley out this year.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

I know we've had this debate before and I am in the stay at Wembley camp. I don't think we've done anything to make Wembley work for a long, long time and for too long the Challenge Cup has been neglected, shunted around and been an afterthought. If we genuinely try to make the Challenge Cup final more appealing and market it and we still have the same issues then re-evaluate it.

However I just think that if nothing else changes I don't see how moving the Challenge Cup in isolation fixes anything. Its the same strategy that RL always uses, see Magic, lets move it to a different location to attract fans to somewhere new. Its lazy beyond belief. I know its not what you are advocating but it is what will happen with the RFL.

I agree there may be better ways to target London, obviously internationals, but we don't do that either and go years without even playing an international there. Sometimes we go years without playing one at home at all. For all its faults the Challenge Cup final is the only regular London big event.

Unless Londoners are going to Wembley - what is the point of it, other than vanity?

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Unless Londoners are going to Wembley - what is the point of it, other than vanity?

Same "problem" as the Grand Final, there aren't that many stadiums over the 50k-60k+ requirement in the country. And of those that are, few have any prestige one would want to associate with a cup final

[Toby Chopra]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know we've had this debate before and I am in the stay at Wembley camp. I don't think we've done anything to make Wembley work for a long, long time and for too long the Challenge Cup has been neglected, shunted around and been an afterthought. If we genuinely try to make the Challenge Cup final more appealing and market it and we still have the same issues then re-evaluate it.

However I just think that if nothing else changes I don't see how moving the Challenge Cup in isolation fixes anything. Its the same strategy that RL always uses, see Magic, lets move it to a different location to attract fans to somewhere new. Its lazy beyond belief. I know its not what you are advocating but it is what will happen with the RFL.

I agree there may be better ways to target London, obviously internationals, but we don't do that either and go years without even playing an international there. Sometimes we go years without playing one at home at all. For all its faults the Challenge Cup final is the only regular London big event.

Agree with that. If it was part of a coherent plan to boost the game elsewhere with the CCF while providing alternative major events for London I could be on board. But we know it wouldn't be that, it would just be an ill-thought short term decision that would fast-track the decline of the cup with nothing in return. 

[Dave T]

22 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know we've had this debate before and I am in the stay at Wembley camp. I don't think we've done anything to make Wembley work for a long, long time and for too long the Challenge Cup has been neglected, shunted around and been an afterthought. If we genuinely try to make the Challenge Cup final more appealing and market it and we still have the same issues then re-evaluate it.

However I just think that if nothing else changes I don't see how moving the Challenge Cup in isolation fixes anything. Its the same strategy that RL always uses, see Magic, lets move it to a different location to attract fans to somewhere new. Its lazy beyond belief. I know its not what you are advocating but it is what will happen with the RFL.

I agree there may be better ways to target London, obviously internationals, but we don't do that either and go years without even playing an international there. Sometimes we go years without playing one at home at all. For all its faults the Challenge Cup final is the only regular London big event.

It's the problem overall isn't it. No matter what point you bring up there, the root cause of the problems is that we half-ass things and do them on the cheap. 

For me, we need to get to a place where we are prepared to lose money on big events. Our events are our biggest marketing tools, but they appear to have to wash their face from day 1, so we minimise costs which means we limit growth. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

It's the problem overall isn't it. No matter what point you bring up there, the root cause of the problems is that we half-ass things and do them on the cheap. 

For me, we need to get to a place where we are prepared to lose money on big events. Our events are our biggest marketing tools, but they appear to have to wash their face from day 1, so we minimise costs which means we limit growth. 

Chicken and Egg - we don't have money to take a loss because events don't make money etc.

In that scenario - I think we reasonably need to get to a place where events are at least profitable and then we can make the choice. At the moment, we don't have any money to be able to make that choice.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

For me, we need to get to a place where we are prepared to lose money on big events. 

That is one thing the RFL is very adept at !

[JonM]

37 minutes ago, Leonard said:

But we might make some money out of those that do.

I wonder what the split of the last 10 years of finals is between:

i. Fans of the finalists/1895 finalists

ii. Northern fans of the sport travelling down.

iii. Southern fans.

I am starting to question iii over recent years.

I think iii) is a reasonably sizeable number of people and possibly the one that's held up the best.

I've been to every final at the new Wembley. I'd say it's category ii) where the numbers have dropped the most. There do seem to be far fewer 'neutral' fans of northern clubs in attendance - used to be pretty much guaranteed that you'd see jerseys of every club as you travelled round London. Last few years, I'm not sure I'd even say I saw jerseys from every SL club. 

I think numbers in category i) have dropped sharply too. I remember Widnes being genuinely emptied for Wembley - you could buy tickets at the chip shop, there were special trains and so on. It's hard to imagine that happening anywhere now. It was very noticeable last year with the final at Tottenham with a fourth tier football play-off on the same day - Mansfield Town vs Port Vale. Both of those clubs brought far more people than Wigan or Huddersfield RL clubs did, and perhaps part of that is that it's possibly a once in a generation kind of thing in football. Hard for Wigan to generate that level of interest when fans may have been to 40+ finals.

Presumably the RFL have this data though.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Leonard said:

That is one thing the RFL is very adept at !

I'm not sure we do. I think events wash their face by being cheap. It's why Warrington stages internationals. It's why women's games are held as double headers and we abandon neutral grounds. It's why fanzones at Magic are no more than a couple of cheap market stalls. 

I'm not one for being reckless, but to build an event into something great, you sometimes have to invest. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure we do. I think events wash their face by being cheap. It's why Warrington stages internationals. It's why women's games are held as double headers and we abandon neutral grounds. It's why fanzones at Magic are no more than a couple of cheap market stalls. 

I'm not one for being reckless, but to build an event into something great, you sometimes have to invest. 

I was just being tongue in cheek - a joke, as in the RFL is very good at losing money on events.

I take the more general point though. 

Maybe the IMG intent to reinvigorate the CC has the intention of getting more money into their coffers. I guess I am right in assuming they take a cut of ticket sales for the CC in the same way that the FA does for the FA Cup?

[Guest]

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03845473/filing-history

2021 accounts - note 3.

Whilst likely COVID impacted - the matchday income really is pitiful.

 

[redjonn]

57 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know we've had this debate before and I am in the stay at Wembley camp. I don't think we've done anything to make Wembley work for a long, long time and for too long the Challenge Cup has been neglected, shunted around and been an afterthought. If we genuinely try to make the Challenge Cup final more appealing and market it and we still have the same issues then re-evaluate it.

However I just think that if nothing else changes I don't see how moving the Challenge Cup in isolation fixes anything. Its the same strategy that RL always uses, see Magic, lets move it to a different location to attract fans to somewhere new. Its lazy beyond belief. I know its not what you are advocating but it is what will happen with the RFL.

I agree there may be better ways to target London, obviously internationals, but we don't do that either and go years without even playing an international there. Sometimes we go years without playing one at home at all. For all its faults the Challenge Cup final is the only regular London big event.

Problem with Wembley for me is that it doesn't have that magic feel anymore, irrespective of it being a final. The stadium is used so much nowadays for all and sundry soccer semi's, play-offs of many leagues, loads of England internationals now often against much lower tiered countries, as well as the finals.  Its lost all that magic and prestige through over use and much more mundane events.

I do get the point of it being the only London event for RL, but with out the prestige and mystic of the stadium the actual event needs to compensate for that loss for the neutral or even less interested home town club non RL fans.

That's an hard marketing job to overcome and for which some parts of we have no control or impact.

 

 

[JonM]

17 minutes ago, Leonard said:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03845473/filing-history

2021 accounts - note 3.

Whilst likely COVID impacted - the matchday income really is pitiful.

 

It was £2.2 million pre-covid. The 2021 final was limited to 40K by Covid.

[Josef K]

21 hours ago, johnh1 said:

I'm guessing that it means that most clubs will have something to play for right to the end of the season - either top 6 or avoiding relegation. But JT RL wants to get rid of the top 6 play offs which would result in most teams having nothing to play for in the last few weeks of the season.

I think the PO’s are definitely here to stay, but myself id go back to a top five system. 

[JonM]

2823 for the Championship relegation four-pointer between Widnes and Swinton.

[Gomersall]

Anyone have the attendance for last Sunday’s match between North Wales Crusaders and Midlands Hurricanes please?

[langpark]

 

 

[Josef K]

1 hour ago, langpark said:

 

 

Excellent crowd well done Salford. 

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, langpark said:

 

 

Great to see.

[meast]

3 hours ago, Gomersall said:

Anyone have the attendance for last Sunday’s match between North Wales Crusaders and Midlands Hurricanes please?

235 according to this

[Dunbar]

On the Challenge Cup final being at Wembley.

I know that there is a body of opinion that believes the Cup has lost some of its prestige and so the final being at Wembley is over the top/too much to ask for fans from the heartlands. 

But I would argue the opposite.  I would argue that having the final at Wembley is one of the things that gives the Cup some relevance.  If we were to move it to a less prestigious venue then I fear it would wither and die as a relevant competition in our sport.

[Gomersall]

57 minutes ago, meast said:

235 according to this

Thank you.

[Josef K]

9,636 at Catalans yesterday, another v good crowd for them. 

[DI Keith Fowler]

4 hours ago, JonM said:

2823 for the Championship relegation four-pointer between Widnes and Swinton.

Getting into the real hardcore support now. Should be setting off alarm bells at the club that we've dropped below 3k. 

[Mr Frisky]

On 21/06/2023 at 11:01, JonM said:

I think iii) is a reasonably sizeable number of people and possibly the one that's held up the best.

I've been to every final at the new Wembley. I'd say it's category ii) where the numbers have dropped the most. There do seem to be far fewer 'neutral' fans of northern clubs in attendance - used to be pretty much guaranteed that you'd see jerseys of every club as you travelled round London. Last few years, I'm not sure I'd even say I saw jerseys from every SL club. 

I think numbers in category i) have dropped sharply too. I remember Widnes being genuinely emptied for Wembley - you could buy tickets at the chip shop, there were special trains and so on. It's hard to imagine that happening anywhere now. It was very noticeable last year with the final at Tottenham with a fourth tier football play-off on the same day - Mansfield Town vs Port Vale. Both of those clubs brought far more people than Wigan or Huddersfield RL clubs did, and perhaps part of that is that it's possibly a once in a generation kind of thing in football. Hard for Wigan to generate that level of interest when fans may have been to 40+ finals.

Presumably the RFL have this data though.

Is it because neutral fans go to magic these days for there RL weekend away each year - got to be a factor.